ECT Things known for ages--Acts 15

[Danoh]

All this today, with Paul completely out of the picture, Peter admits later to being wrong. which was the point here: that Peter was wrong at that point in time.

Interplanner - Winner of this year's Prizebeats Award For Delusions, once more.

 

[Lighthouse]

Most of these points are mistaken Lighhouse (half a point about baptizing) but lets go back to the OP for a second: the description of what happened earlier in Acts 15 is what matters, and that is just one of two declarations that the whole Messianic effort is the mission to all nations. (The other is the quote--and the intro to the quote in v14).

Apparently you are not listening to Peter in v7. Yes, Peter. That's not Paul speaking. The interesting thing about how he refers to it is that he must have got his face slapped by Paul and felt the need to correct the others. Indeed!

MAD is an artifice, a glommed-on attempt to make 2P2P work. it does not exist and it does not work. There is nothing in the NT that is interested in another round of Judaism (which by necessity is in Judea with a temple) in the future.

MAD puts its heads in place of the declarations of Acts 15 about what happened and why. Add to that the v14 intro to the Amos quote, and MAD is nowhere.

There is one mistake that is new to me: that John said we were saved by works. I don't think you understand the vibrance of 'the work of God is to believe on Him Whom He sent' in ch 6. I have never heard your doctrine before, but I'm not surprised because MAD is bound to push things out of shape, because it is already in so much error.

First off I didn't say anything about being saved by works. Learn to read.

And finally, because your argument here is not worth any more time than this, I am not surprised you can't be bothered to lay out your argument with actual Scripture text rather then just references. Because it doesn't support your argument.

Actually Paul stated that the mystery had been revealed by the Holy Ghost to many apostles and prophets.

But not before it was revealed to him.

Anyone referring to being "in Christ" was referring to being a part of his body.

That's an assumption; which seem to be your bread and butter.

Paul was the apostle primarily heading up the outreach to the Gentiles.

:sherlock:

Next point: almost completely untrue
Hebrews is never addressed to the Hebrews. Someone after-the-fact put a title on it that the author never did

I thought it was your argument that we don't know who wrote Hebrews. So at best this i an argument from silence. It is best to keep those silent, lest you remove all doubt as to your foolishness.

1 Peter is addressed to "strangers" (usually a term referring to Gentiles)

Thayer's Definition

1. one who comes from a foreign country into a city or land to reside there by the side of the natives
2. a stranger
3. sojourning in a strange place, a foreigner
4. in the NT metaph. in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth

Strangers in strange lands. Jews who were foreigners in the lands of the Gentiles. Context is key.

2 Peter is addressed to "them who have received like precious faith".

Which would be whom?

ALL those after Peter are the same - not addressed to Jews.

You might want to read what I posted again, because you're arguing against something I did not say.

Only James says it is to the 12 tribes, and if it is only for them, then the book of Galatians is only for the church at Galatia.

Some of Galatians is. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from it.

But as Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, as he wrote in Romans 11:13 And it was agreed among James, Cephas [Peter], John, Paul and Barnabas, that the first three and their fellow disciples and followers should stick with the circumcised [the 12 tribes] and the latter two with the Gentiles [as a result of Galatians 2:7] in Galatians 2:9.

This is also why there were 12 disciples and why Paul was chosen extra instead of replacing Judas and someone else was chosen to replace Judas [Matthias].

12 disciples=12 tribes
Paul=Gentiles

You're referring to James, I believe, on the "works" statement.

You're correct. That doesn't change the point.

P.S.
I fixed it.

James, in that passage, is teaching about how worthless our love is if we don't demonstrate it. Read chapter 2 from the beginning, and notice that the subject and never changes.

And he still says we are justified by works. So it doesn't matter what his overall point was in regard to this issue. Because that doesn't change the fact that he said, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Then go read Galatians chapter 5, and you will find that Paul says that the only faith that avails (in other words, the only faith that is worth anything, and not dead) is "faith which WORKETH by love".

This doesn't change the fact that Paul said, “...a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”

As we've said before, some things being the same doesn't mean all things are. Just because they agree one some things does not mean they agree on all things.

Your argument is like saying that because Catholics and Protestants agree that Jesus is the Son of God that we also agree that the Pope speaks for God.

Paul and James are agreeing, although wording it differently. The only living faith is a faith that does works driven by love.

MAD has never said the two camps never agreed.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

And yet, here is a problem: faith works by love ≠ faith without works is dead.

Baptism: Paul had his helpers do the baptizing over and over in the book of Acts. God sent him to preach, and when people responded they were baptized by his assistants. Read about the Gentile Philippian Jailer. Read Acts 18 about the Corinthians getting baptized. Read Acts 19 about him having people re-baptized.

That doesn't change the fact that Paul wasn't sent to baptize.

 

[Interplanner]

First off I didn't say anything about being saved by works. Learn to read.

And finally, because your argument here is not worth any more time than this, I am not surprised you can't be bothered to lay out your argument with actual Scripture text rather then just references. Because it doesn't support your argument.


But not before it was revealed to him.


That's an assumption; which seem to be your bread and butter.


:sherlock:


I thought it was your argument that we don't know who wrote Hebrews. So at best this i an argument from silence. It is best to keep those silent, lest you remove all doubt as to your foolishness.


Thayer's Definition

1. one who comes from a foreign country into a city or land to reside there by the side of the natives
2. a stranger
3. sojourning in a strange place, a foreigner
4. in the NT metaph. in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth

Strangers in strange lands. Jews who were foreigners in the lands of the Gentiles. Context is key.


Which would be whom?


You might want to read what I posted again, because you're arguing against something I did not say.


Some of Galatians is. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from it.

But as Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, as he wrote in Romans 11:13 And it was agreed among James, Cephas [Peter], John, Paul and Barnabas, that the first three and their fellow disciples and followers should stick with the circumcised [the 12 tribes] and the latter two with the Gentiles [as a result of Galatians 2:7] in Galatians 2:9.

This is also why there were 12 disciples and why Paul was chosen extra instead of replacing Judas and someone else was chosen to replace Judas [Matthias].

12 disciples=12 tribes
Paul=Gentiles


You're correct. That doesn't change the point.

P.S.
I fixed it.


And he still says we are justified by works. So it doesn't matter what his overall point was in regard to this issue. Because that doesn't change the fact that he said, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”


This doesn't change the fact that Paul said, “...a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”

As we've said before, some things being the same doesn't mean all things are. Just because they agree one some things does not mean they agree on all things.

Your argument is like saying that because Catholics and Protestants agree that Jesus is the Son of God that we also agree that the Pope speaks for God.


MAD has never said the two camps never agreed.


And yet, here is a problem: faith works by love ≠ faith without works is dead.


That doesn't change the fact that Paul wasn't sent to baptize.

There were 6 passages referred to. which one did you miss?

 

[Interplanner]

How is that obvious?

For the sake of argument assume MAD is correct, just for a few minutes, and think about this:

1. The mystery was revealed to Paul and not to anyone before Paul.
2. The mystery was not the first and only gospel ever.
3. Those in the previous dispensation, under the previous gospel, could and would be in Christ without having to teach, or even know, the mystery.

Your arguments against MAD are completely illogical.

No one other than Paul ever spoke, or wrote, of the mystery.
No one other than Paul ever referred to Christians as the Body of Christ.
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and referred to himself as such in salutations.
The other writers when referring to whom they were writing in their salutations said it was to the 12 tribes.
The inner circle of the 12 agreed, with Paul, that they would stick to the circumcision and he would go to the Gentiles.
James said we are justified by works and not faith only and Paul said we are not justified by works, but by faith alone.
In the Great Commission Jesus sent the 12 to preach the gospel and baptize. Paul was only sent to preach the gospel; he was not sent to baptize.

As he showed, others knew the mystery and Peter said he was sent to the Gentiles. Any other questions? the only characteristic of MAD that I know of is obtuse contradiction of Scripture. If you can fix that, great.

 

[Interplanner]

James said what he did because of the problem of dead faith (a corpse without a spirit). There is no good being too literal with it.

 

[Lighthouse]

There were 6 passages referred to. which one did you miss?

I didn't miss any. I'm not surprised you didn't get the point. You're blinded by your ego.

As he showed, others knew the mystery and Peter said he was sent to the Gentiles. Any other questions? the only characteristic of MAD that I know of is obtuse contradiction of Scripture. If you can fix that, great.

I didn't ask any questions. I never said no one else knew the mystery. And I also never said Paul wasn't sent to the Gentiles. In fact, I'm pretty sure my argument is that Paul's message is for the Gentiles.

And if there were contradictions you'd be able to show them. All you've done so far is post lies about MAD.

 

[Danoh]

As he showed, others knew the mystery and Peter said he was sent to the Gentiles. Any other questions? the only characteristic of MAD that I know of is obtuse contradiction of Scripture. If you can fix that, great.

And quit quoting Scripture, Lighthouse; it offends the heck out of IP.

Now quoting a book "about" well, now that is totally acceptable - the more, the merrier.

I mean, what is the matter with you; how do you expect the guy to get away with his endless "Yea, hath God said?" if he begins posting passages, not out of his endless books "about" but out of the One Book he obviously only CLAIMS to believe?

What? Don't tell me you would deprive him of his more than well-earned Prizebeats Delusion of the Year Award...

:doh:

 

[SimpleMan77]

You might want to read what I posted again, because you're arguing against something I did not say.

Here are your words exactly:

"The other writers when referring to whom they were writing in their salutations said it was to the 12 tribes."

So you did say that the other writers addressed their letters to the 12 tribes. I was right - only James did.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Danoh]

Here are your words exactly:

"The other writers when referring to whom they were writing in their salutations said it was to the 12 tribes."

So you did say that the other writers addressed their letters to the 12 tribes. I was right - only James did.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

You were sharp for one minute. A few days ago, in one post. After that - phewt; zip; nada.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

All there letters are "to the twelve tribes of Israel which are scattered abroad."

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Acts 16:6 Now when they [Paul and company] had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 16:7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

Because that was "another man's foundation..."

Romans 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Whose ministry was it then?

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I know, I know, you will now read your recurrently proven incompetence into all that.

For you have proven yourself one heck of a same old, same old reading your own notions into a thing...dissapointement.

 

[SimpleMan77]

You were sharp for one minute. A few days ago, in one post. After that - phewt; zip; nada.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

All there letters are "to the twelve tribes of Israel which are scattered abroad."

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Acts 16:6 Now when they [Paul and company] had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 16:7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

Because that was "another man's foundation..."

Romans 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Whose ministry was it then?

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I know, I know, you will now read your recurrently proven incompetence into all that.

For you have proven yourself one heck of a same old, same old reading your own notions into a thing...dissapointement.

You should really read the conversation before jumping into it.

LH said specifically that the other writers (besides Paul) had specifically addressed their epistles IN THEIR SALUTATIONS to the 12 tribes. I called the bluff, at which time LH claimed to have not said that.
Your post simply proves me right. James is the only one IN HIS SALUTATION who addresses his letter to the 12 tribes.
In your eagerness to prove me wrong you missed what we were even discussing.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Danoh]

You should really read the conversation before jumping into it.

LH said specifically that the other writers (besides Paul) had specifically addressed their epistles IN THEIR SALUTATIONS to the 12 tribes. I called the bluff, at which time LH claimed to have not said that.
Your post simply proves me right. James is the only one IN HIS SALUTATION who addresses his letter to the 12 tribes.
In your eagerness to prove me wrong you missed what we were even discussing.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

There you go again; not only overlooking the obvious, but reading into a thing, once more :chuckle:

 

[SimpleMan77]

Things known for ages--Acts 15

There you go again; not only overlooking the obvious, but reading into a thing, once more :chuckle:

LH made a very specific claim that wasn't true. Wasn't true then, isn't true now. The claim was that Peter, John, Jude, and the author of Hebrews addressed their epistles to the 12 tribes "IN THEIR SALUTATIONS".

Do you know what part of the letter "the salutations" are?

We can discuss whether there are words or clues in the body of each epistle that indicate their target audience, but that is a different conversation entirely.







Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Danoh]

LH made a very specific claim that wasn't true. Wasn't true then, isn't true now. The claim was that Peter, John, Jude, and the author of Hebrews addressed their epistles to the 12 tribes "IN THEIR SALUTATIONS".

Do you know what part of the letter "the salutations" are?

We can discuss whether there are words or clues in the body of each epistle that indicate their target audience, but that is a different conversation entirely.







Sent from my iPhone using TOL

So post where he contradicted himself, or not.

I hold to a Mid-Acts Perspective, more or less.

I do not hold to favoritism.

I go with whomever I believe is sound one a thing or another, and from where I happen to be in my understanding at any given point in time.

 

[SimpleMan77]

So post where he contradicted himself, or not.

I've posted it several times. LH's exact words were:

"The other writers when referring to whom they were writing in their salutations said it was to the 12 tribes."

Again, note that the part of the statement I challenged was "in their salutations".

I don't mind having a different discussion with anyone about who is referenced in an epistle or who the intended audience is, but let's at least own up to misquoting scripture when we make a mistake.

And let's not jump onto a post, accusing someone of "not being sharp", then proceed to demonstrate that we don't even realize what's being discussed.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Danoh]

I've posted it several times. LH's exact words were:

"The other writers when referring to whom they were writing in their salutations said it was to the 12 tribes."

Again, note that the part of the statement I challenged was "in their salutations".

I don't mind having a different discussion with anyone about who is referenced in an epistle or who the intended audience is, but let's at least own up to misquoting scripture when we make a mistake.

And let's not jump onto a post, accusing someone of "not being sharp", then proceed to demonstrate that we don't even realize what's being discussed.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

I still see no problem with his statement. They were not writing to members of the Body of Christ, rather; to members of the Twelve Tribes of Israel and what ever proselytes were with them.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel were under their authority.

They (the Twelve Apostles) were that nation the Lord told the Pharisees their (the Pharisees') authority over the kingdom of Israel would be taken from and given to (the Twelve Apostles).

Simple math - duh uh.

You might as well assert it is wrong to conclude that Paul wrote say, Philemon to a member of the Body of Christ, just because he does not use that phrase in that Epistle.

Again, you are another one with whom there is no reasoning with simply due to how much you lack as to familiarity with such finer details.

What you are doing is speculating in the absence of said information.

Information that is there in the Scriptures.

It is the same even between various Mid-Acts Dispensationalists - those far and away much more familiar not only with the Scripture, but with finer and finer principles of study that only time rightly studying a thing out will result in, will tend to see things that others who hold to Mid-Acts but who do not have that yet, will tend not to see; even strongly disagree with.

And some simply start out sharper than others, to begin with.

And then you have all the various personality issues that actually get in the way of that in the individual.

Some are simply not open to having a thing pointed out to them by one they do not agree with, let alone; by one of their own.

As is the case in any field in all walks of life.

The thing to do is to always be willing to give the other side the benefit of the doubt on each point no matter how often one has disagreed with them in the past.

Because even a stopped clock is right twice a day. And though it is by accident, there is always something to be learned from such moments.

Just one more way of ensuring one continues to remain open to learning from anyone.

And believe or not, some will see nothing of use in this post.

They are the real, one sided, intolerant, our way alone, or the highway.

Personally, I find that stupid on there part.

At the same time, I find it a warning - of what I should strive...to avoid...if I am to remain ever opening to learning...no matter the "teacher."

 

[SimpleMan77]

I still see no problem with his statement. They were not writing to members of the Body of Christ, rather; to members of the Twelve Tribes of Israel and what ever proselytes were with them.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel were under their authority.

They (the Twelve Apostles) were that nation the Lord told the Pharisees their (the Pharisees') authority over the kingdom of Israel would be taken from and given to (the Twelve Apostles).

Simple math - duh uh.

You might as well assert it is wrong to conclude that Paul wrote say, Philemon to a member of the Body of Christ, just because he does not use that phrase in that Epistle.

Again, you are another one with whom there is no reasoning with simply due to how much you lack as to familiarity with such finer details.

What you are doing is speculating in the absence of said information.

Information that is there in the Scriptures.

It is the same even between various Mid-Acts Dispensationalists - those far and away much more familiar not only with the Scripture, but with finer and finer principles of study that only time rightly studying a thing out will result in, will tend to see things that others who hold to Mid-Acts but who do not have that yet, will tend not to see; even strongly disagree with.

And some simply start out sharper than others, to begin with.

And then you have all the various personality issues that actually get in the way of that in the individual.

Some are simply not open to having a thing pointed out to them by one they do not agree with, let alone; by one of their own.

As is the case in any field in all walks of life.

The thing to do is to always be willing to give the other side the benefit of the doubt on each point no matter how often one has disagreed with them in the past.

Because even a stopped clock is right twice a day. And though it is by accident, there is always something to be learned from such moments.

Just one more way of ensuring one continues to remain open to learning from anyone.

And believe or not, some will see nothing of use in this post.

They are the real, one sided, intolerant, our way alone, or the highway.

Personally, I find that stupid on there part.

At the same time, I find it a warning - of what I should strive...to avoid...if I am to remain ever opening to learning...no matter the "teacher."

You do know that the "salutation" of an epistle is always contained in the first couple of verses, correct?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Danoh]

You do know that the "salutation" of an epistle is always contained in the first couple of verses, correct?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

You're still wrong. Each opens up with addressing members of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Said Twelve Tribes members are their audience.

The Twelve Apostles were THEIR Twelve Apostles and Overseers.

They were the Twelve Tribes new husbandry over said vineyard.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The chief priests and the Pharisees were going to be replaced by the Twelve Apostles.

 

[SimpleMan77]

You're still wrong. Each opens up with addressing members of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Said Twelve Tribes members are their audience.

The Twelve Apostles were THEIR Twelve Apostles and Overseers.

They were the Twelve Tribes new husbandry over said vineyard.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The chief priests and the Pharisees were going to be replaced by the Twelve Apostles.

Here is Jude's salutation:

Jude 1:1-2
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

LH stated that Jude and other stated specifically in their salutations that their letters were "to the 12 tribes". Am I missing those words in Jude?



Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[SimpleMan77]

You're still wrong. Each opens up with addressing members of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Said Twelve Tribes members are their audience.

The Twelve Apostles were THEIR Twelve Apostles and Overseers.

They were the Twelve Tribes new husbandry over said vineyard.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The chief priests and the Pharisees were going to be replaced by the Twelve Apostles.

Also I'd submit to you that God's word is not only prophetic, but also has the power of creation. Unless He says it is conditional, it's not. These promises were to his Apostles, and were not conditional dependent on the choices of the nation of Israel. When Jesus speaks, his word is so powerful universes can be created out of nothing.

Now this isn't at odds with what you are saying if you believe that this prophecy will still be fulfilled in the future. However, if the response of the nation of Israel cancelled this promise, it makes Jesus a false prophet, because He did not make this a conditional promise.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Danoh]

Here is Jude's salutation:

Jude 1:1-2
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

LH stated that Jude and other stated specifically in their salutations that their letters were "to the 12 tribes". Am I missing those words in Jude?



Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Again, it depends on where you look at those things from.

What verses you study out both as to, and in light of key words in those passages.

What I posted prior to this is a guide to that.

Also, what all else does the writer write that might shed light on who he is addressing?

And again, this is my take on these things. Some Mid-Acts Dispys on TOL may or may not, agree.

So until such post otherwise; keep this in mind.

So, what else does said writer write that might shed light on who he is addressing?

Is it actually the same, say, as what Paul asserts? Is some if it? All of it? None of it?