ECT Things known for ages--Acts 15

[Lighthouse]

Rom 16:7
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

The other Apostles obviously taught the "mystery" because they were in Jesus before Paul according to Paul.

How is that obvious?

For the sake of argument assume MAD is correct, just for a few minutes, and think about this:

1. The mystery was revealed to Paul and not to anyone before Paul.
2. The mystery was not the first and only gospel ever.
3. Those in the previous dispensation, under the previous gospel, could and would be in Christ without having to teach, or even know, the mystery.

Your arguments against MAD are completely illogical.

No one other than Paul ever spoke, or wrote, of the mystery.
No one other than Paul ever referred to Christians as the Body of Christ.
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and referred to himself as such in salutations.
The other writers when referring to whom they were writing in their salutations said it was to the 12 tribes.
The inner circle of the 12 agreed, with Paul, that they would stick to the circumcision and he would go to the Gentiles.
James said we are justified by works and not faith only and Paul said we are not justified by works, but by faith alone.
In the Great Commission Jesus sent the 12 to preach the gospel and baptize. Paul was only sent to preach the gospel; he was not sent to baptize.

 

[Interplanner]

How is that obvious?

For the sake of argument assume MAD is correct, just for a few minutes, and think about this:

1. The mystery was revealed to Paul and not to anyone before Paul.
2. The mystery was not the first and only gospel ever.
3. Those in the previous dispensation, under the previous gospel, could and would be in Christ without having to teach, or even know, the mystery.

Your arguments against MAD are completely illogical.

No one other than Paul ever spoke, or wrote, of the mystery.
No one other than Paul ever referred to Christians as the Body of Christ.
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and referred to himself as such in salutations.
The other writers when referring to whom they were writing in their salutations said it was to the 12 tribes.
The inner circle of the 12 agreed, with Paul, that they would stick to the circumcision and he would go to the Gentiles.
John said we are justified by works and not faith only and Paul said we are not justified by works, but by faith alone.
In the Great Commission Jesus sent the 12 to preach the gospel and baptize. Paul was only sent to preach the gospel; he was not sent to baptize.

Most of these points are mistaken Lighhouse (half a point about baptizing) but lets go back to the OP for a second: the description of what happened earlier in Acts 15 is what matters, and that is just one of two declarations that the whole Messianic effort is the mission to all nations. (The other is the quote--and the intro to the quote in v14).

Apparently you are not listening to Peter in v7. Yes, Peter. That's not Paul speaking. The interesting thing about how he refers to it is that he must have got his face slapped by Paul and felt the need to correct the others. Indeed!

MAD is an artifice, a glommed-on attempt to make 2P2P work. it does not exist and it does not work. There is nothing in the NT that is interested in another round of Judaism (which by necessity is in Judea with a temple) in the future.

MAD puts its heads in place of the declarations of Acts 15 about what happened and why. Add to that the v14 intro to the Amos quote, and MAD is nowhere.

There is one mistake that is new to me: that John said we were saved by works. I don't think you understand the vibrance of 'the work of God is to believe on Him Whom He sent' in ch 6. I have never heard your doctrine before, but I'm not surprised because MAD is bound to push things out of shape, because it is already in so much error.

 

[Interplanner]

Please teach us

The OP has been sharpened.

 

[SimpleMan77]

Things known for ages--Acts 15

No one other than Paul ever spoke, or wrote, of the mystery.
No one other than Paul ever referred to Christians as the Body of Christ.
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and referred to himself as such in salutations.
The other writers when referring to whom they were writing in their salutations said it was to the 12 tribes.
The inner circle of the 12 agreed, with Paul, that they would stick to the circumcision and he would go to the Gentiles.
John said we are justified by works and not faith only and Paul said we are not justified by works, but by faith alone.
In the Great Commission Jesus sent the 12 to preach the gospel and baptize. Paul was only sent to preach the gospel; he was not sent to baptize.

Actually Paul stated that the mystery had been revealed by the Holy Ghost to many apostles and prophets.

Ephesians 3:3-6
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Anyone referring to being "in Christ" was referring to being a part of his body. Peter and John both referred to that - Peter in his teachings, and John when he recounted the teachings of Jesus.

Paul was the apostle primarily heading up the outreach to the Gentiles.

Next point: almost completely untrue
Hebrews is never addressed to the Hebrews. Someone after-the-fact put a title on it that the author never did
1 Peter is addressed to "strangers" (usually a term referring to Gentiles)
2 Peter is addressed to "them who have received like precious faith".
ALL those after Peter are the same - not addressed to Jews.

Only James says it is to the 12 tribes, and if it is only for them, then the book of Galatians is only for the church at Galatia.

You're referring to James, I believe, on the "works" statement. James, in that passage, is teaching about how worthless our love is if we don't demonstrate it. Read chapter 2 from the beginning, and notice that the subject and never changes.

Then go read Galatians chapter 5, and you will find that Paul says that the only faith that avails (in other words, the only faith that is worth anything, and not dead) is "faith which WORKETH by love".

Paul and James are agreeing, although wording it differently. The only living faith is a faith that does works driven by love.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Baptism: Paul had his helpers do the baptizing over and over in the book of Acts. God sent him to preach, and when people responded they were baptized by his assistants. Read about the Gentile Philippian Jailer. Read Acts 18 about the Corinthians getting baptized. Read Acts 19 about him having people re-baptized.


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[SaulToPaul 2]

MAD is an artifice, a glommed-on attempt to make 2P2P work.

Indeed, whereas the NHNE event and subsequent reversion to Eph2B and Mt24P underlie the entire problem,
a problem which has become an amalgamation of erroneous departures from the gospel event and from the light
of the lighted camel thread from Genesis 24C onward, thwarting the entire purpose and scope of Sanford and Son's empire and further derailing attempts at civil discourse. Agreed?

 

[Interplanner]

Indeed, whereas the NHNE event and subsequent reversion to Eph2B and Mt24P underlie the entire problem,
a problem which has become an amalgamation of erroneous departures from the gospel event and from the light
of the lighted camel thread from Genesis 24C onward, thwarting the entire purpose and scope of Sanford and Son's empire and further derailing attempts at civil discourse. Agreed?

Did you say anything about the questions at hand?

 

[Interplanner]

You can tell when you've got hold of the historic Gospel, you're inspired to speak it and voice it. That's in the text and in life. There is nothing about MAD, or Israel's theocracy, that gets you there, as you uninspired and uninformed internetters can see.

 

[steko]

Indeed, whereas the NHNE event and subsequent reversion to Eph2B and Mt24P underlie the entire problem,
a problem which has become an amalgamation of erroneous departures from the gospel event and from the light
of the lighted camel thread from Genesis 24C onward, thwarting the entire purpose and scope of Sanford and Son's empire and further derailing attempts at civil discourse. Agreed?

I agree wholeheartedly, though I must add that when the clueless projectionist showed the wrong movie, many were unconsciously deluded by the 1P1P paradigum , which paradigum was syrupticiously pancaked behind the director's chair. Of course...... there was no butter to ease the adjustment, therefore the director, who was extremely discomfited, promptly lit off a camel.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I agree wholeheartedly, though I must add that when the clueless projectionist showed the wrong movie, many were unconsciously deluded by the 1P1P paradigum , which paradigum was syrupticiously pancaked behind the director's chair. Of course...... there was no butter to ease the adjustment, therefore the director, who was extremely discomfited, promptly lit off a camel.

Agree. Neither Marcus Sanford, nor Holford, could have stated it more eloquently.

 

[Nick M]

The reaching of the Gentiles for salvation was known for ages.

After blessing Israel. Cursing Israel didn't work out too well.

 

[Nick M]

Apparently you are not listening to Peter in v7. Yes, Peter. That's not Paul speaking. The interesting thing about how he refers to it is that he must have got his face slapped by Paul and felt the need to correct the others. Indeed!

Not so Lord!

 

[Interplanner]

Not so Lord!

??? Did he need to remind them it was a burden? Why would he have to do that?

 

[Nick M]

Why would he have to do that?

Because of the change in administration (dispensation). Peter and the 12 were out when it came to bringing in the gentiles through Israel. With Paul, we are saved through their fall.

Peter, full of the Holy Spirit said it was unlawful for him to even sit with them. The plan (dying for the sin of the world) was kept from everybody. Peter did not know because the Holy Spirit did not reveal it to him. Peter was to gather Israel to the messiah.

 

[Interplanner]

Because of the change in administration (dispensation). Peter and the 12 were out when it came to bringing in the gentiles through Israel. With Paul, we are saved through their fall.

Peter, full of the Holy Spirit said it was unlawful for him to even sit with them. The plan (dying for the sin of the world) was kept from everybody. Peter did not know because the Holy Spirit did not reveal it to him. Peter was to gather Israel to the messiah.

Total nonsense, and I hope Danoh is listening. Peter's recollection in Acts 15 is that he was to reach the nations.

Where do you get the idea that he was full of the Spirit and led by that spirit not to sit with them? The Spirit led him after correction through the vision to sit with them.

Just so you know, I was 'dis-fellowshipped' by a messianic Jew for thinking that Acts 9 said that Peter ate that food with them. You're sounding like that.

 

[Danoh]

Total nonsense, and I hope Danoh is listening. Peter's recollection in Acts 15 is that he was to reach the nations.

Where do you get the idea that he was full of the Spirit and led by that spirit not to sit with them? The Spirit led him after correction through the vision to sit with them.

Just so you know, I was 'dis-fellowshipped' by a messianic Jew for thinking that Acts 9 said that Peter ate that food with them. You're sounding like that.

:rotfl:

What is this fixation you have with me?

By the way, when you read, you sub-vocalize; don't you? Fess up, lol

I know; it's almost spooky how I know these things :chuckle:

 

[Interplanner]

:rotfl:

What is this fixation you have with me?

By the way, when you read, you sub-vocalize; don't you? Fess up, lol

I know; it's almost spooky how I know these things :chuckle:

I thought perhaps if you heard someone other than yourself make the mistakes you make, you might get it. I don't seem to be able to demonstrate them to you. Here you've got a person yanking meaning and context all over the tulies and you think it is normal to do so.

 

[Interplanner]

Because of the change in administration (dispensation). Peter and the 12 were out when it came to bringing in the gentiles through Israel. With Paul, we are saved through their fall.

Peter, full of the Holy Spirit said it was unlawful for him to even sit with them. The plan (dying for the sin of the world) was kept from everybody. Peter did not know because the Holy Spirit did not reveal it to him. Peter was to gather Israel to the messiah.

How can you possibly read the narrative and not realize that Peter was mistaken in what he was doing in chs 8-10? He says so in the description of what happens himself!

 

[Nick M]

How can you possibly read the narrative and not realize that Peter was mistaken in what he was doing in chs 8-10? He says so in the description of what happens himself!

Acts 10.

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

Peter didn't know. Deal with it. He knew after this. Paul was preaching a different gospel, and it was time for it to be revealed to the 12.

 

[Interplanner]

Acts 10.

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

Peter didn't know. Deal with it. He knew after this. Paul was preaching a different gospel, and it was time for it to be revealed to the 12.

Oh, I see, he missed the page in the gospel accounts on 'what comes out of your mouth'. I see. Cool.

You know, I think he was absent that day.

In fact, I think there is a D'ist doctrine that says Peter was actually 'in the futre' at that point, and wasn't back until afterwards, and that's why he didn't know anything about the teaching of Jesus on this. In Mt 24, at the beginning, there is another passage where everybody including Jesus is in the future, too.

 

[Interplanner]

All this today, with Paul completely out of the picture, Peter admits later to being wrong. which was the point here: that Peter was wrong at that point in time.