These are NOT the same gospel

Derf

Well-known member
And that would happen if you freely chose to stop believing, right? Is there some other way salvation could be lost while still continuing to believe in Christ?
It doesn't matter in terms of the resurrection, because all will rise. After that, EVERYONE will believe in Jesus and his power to raise the dead! So what makes the difference after that? I'm thinking it's one's willingness to obey, we will be entering his kingdom, after all.

There's a group that doesn't have to worry at all about the second death.
Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Oh, so God didn't have the power to keep anyone until Paul came along.
Bah.
I know it's hard for you to understand, but God can do whatever He wants to do.

Not only that, but God is more than able to treat one group of people different than He does others.
Some are required to do works and others are forbidden.

Some must wait to have their sins forgiven and others don't have to wait.

I understand why people scoff at what they don't understand, but it isn't a good look.
 

Hoping

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I know it's hard for you to understand, but God can do whatever He wants to do.

Not only that, but God is more than able to treat one group of people different than He does others.
Some are required to do works and others are forbidden.

Some must wait to have their sins forgiven and others don't have to wait.
Where do you get this "forgiven later" business?
 

Tambora

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I know what Paul said, but he isn't talking about the body of Christ.
He was speaking to his congregation.

Romans 1:7 KJV
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Derf

Well-known member
From Peter. Acts 3.

Those saved through Paul's gospel have their sins forgiven the moment they believe.

It's all right there in the Bible. You just have to know where to look.
"How"...not "where". You have to squint your eyes just right to see it.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
From Peter. Acts 3.
Those saved through Paul's gospel have their sins forgiven the moment they believe.

It's all right there in the Bible. You just have to know where to look.
You misinterpreted it.
My sins will have already have been blotted out when the Lord returns...like Peter detailed in Acts 2.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You think Jesus needed sealing?
Wow.
Good grief. Go to a concordance or another translation..... "you" is not "him".

2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You misinterpreted it.
My sins will have already have been blotted out when the Lord returns...like Peter detailed in Acts 2.
Yippee for you. That's in the future....which is fine since you're still under the law and must endure to the end.

Mine are forgiven already. I don't have to wait until the Lord returns.
 

JudgeRightly

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Unless I'm missing something nobody in this thread is saying that salvation can be lost.

Tambora is.

As far as I'm concerned it's a dispute about 'losing' salvation versus that it can be walked away from, or that it can be given away willfully. Not 'losing' it. I'm reading you and Musterion saying that even if someone chooses to stop believing in Christ and Paul's Gospel and walk away from faith, they are still saved. And that just doesn't make sense to some people, and there is a similarity between that view and Calvinism.

Musterion presented an argument earlier that I believe resolves this entirely.

There are people here who believe God really isn't very bright.

Want to know how you can spot them?

They believe He wasn't smart enough to consider the probability of those He forgave, quickened, and justified going through hard times with the world, the devil, and their own sin-infected flesh.

They believe He didn't foresee many of them being ignorant of His all-sufficient grace, and so fall into doubting Him (which is to lose faith) or being angry with Him (also losing faith).

They believe He didn't make allowance for this, so He is powerless to preserve those whom He saved but later doubt or become despondent or resentful.

They believe He can only watch helplessly as those He saved become lost again, leaving Him no choice but to burn them.

In believing all this, they imply that they are...

smarter

than

God.

Fortunately, they aren't. They are proud, ignorant fools.

God's saving grace cannot be outsinned by any whom He has forgiven all sins
AND justified by the resurrection of Christ
AND sealed unto Himself by His own Spirit.

It isn't even the believer sinning anymore--Paul says it's the old man, the flesh doing it.

That includes bouts of faithlessness.

Now watch: if they respond at all, they'll backtrack and make up parameters on how much faithlessness or what kind of faithlessness it takes for a saved person to be lost.

@Idolater @Tambora I believe God is gracious enough to save those who, in ignorance, turn away from Him after coming to Him, because He says they are "sealed with the Holy Spirit."
 

JudgeRightly

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Wrong again.

Paul says one is broken off because because of unbelief and can be grafted back in if they return to belief.

He's talking about the unbelieving portion of Israel that was cut off because of their unbelief.

He's not talking about the Body of Christ.
 

JudgeRightly

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He was speaking to his congregation.

... about Israel:

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,“ Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life” ?But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.”I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!“For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?”“Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?”For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. - Romans 11:1-36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:1-36&version=NKJV

Israel, particularly unbelieving Israel = Brown
Body of Christ, particularly his audience = Blue
The World, Gentiles = Grey
The Remnant = Green
 

Derf

Well-known member
... about Israel:

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,“ Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life” ?But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.”I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!“For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?”“Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?”For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. - Romans 11:1-36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:1-36&version=NKJV

Israel, particularly unbelieving Israel = Brown
Body of Christ, particularly his audience = Blue
The World, Gentiles = Grey
The Remnant = Green
This is well done, JR.
 
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