These are NOT the same gospel

[glorydaz]

Not the letter of the law, but what the law revealed.
The law revealed that, because of a spotless one, you would receive a pardon (that you didn't earn) instead of the guilty verdict you deserved (that you did earn).
That's grace.

The works of the law (ie. the ritualistic deeds that were done) demonstrated the grace of God.
For while those works of the law were performed by various entities (from the sacrificial offering itself to the high priest) ALL were a demonstration of what God Himself would do alone.
Christ was the offering and the high priest and everything in between.


Noah was not the only one saved on the ark from the flood.
And the remnant of 2 of those son's descendants would persecute the remnant of the other son's descendants.

I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but I don't see how it pertains to what I think we're talking about.

Grace is like oil and oil and water do not mix.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Tambora]

I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but I don't see how it pertains to what I think we're talking about.

Ahhhh, I'm probably just not explaining it very well.

Grace is like oil and oil and water do not mix.

They do when you're making brownies.
haha!

But yeah, work is earning a wage/reward owed to you and grace is not.
Apples and oranges.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This verse is talking about Jews, not Gentiles.
It is about a remnant of believers of Israel, just as was done in OT times (per verse 4).
Grace then, grace now.

 

[glorydaz]

Ahhhh, I'm probably just not explaining it very well.



They do when you're making brownies.
haha!

But yeah, work is earning a wage/reward owed to you and grace is not.
Apples and oranges.

Dang, now I'm going to start thinking about brownies.

This verse is talking about Jews, not Gentiles.
It is about a remnant of believers of Israel, just as was done in OT times (per verse 4).
Grace then, grace now.

But then we see this, so I guess I'm lost somewhere here.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

So you're not saying the Jews were saved the same as the Gentiles, right?

 

[Tambora]

But then we see this, so I guess I'm lost somewhere here.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Let me color code that verse to see what goes with what.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel [as a whole] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election [the remnant] hath obtained it, and the rest [all but the remnant] were blinded

Only a portion of Israel was blinded, the believing remnant was not.


Verses 1-4 tell of how Elijah complained that all Israel had stumbled except for him, and God says "Nah, I have a remnant of believers within Israel".
And verse 5 says that just as there was a remnant by grace back then, there is also a remnant by grace today.
The believing remnant back then and now were both by grace.

So you're not saying the Jews were saved the same as the Gentiles, right?

I'm saying that no one has ever been saved into eternal life except by grace.
Just as Paul tells us that faithful Abraham was justified by faith apart from works back in his day just as the faithful are today.
You can demonstrate your faith with works, but it is your faith that saves, not the demonstration.

But when it comes to the earthly kingdom promised to Israel, works are involved to remain in that earthy kingdom.
But that is an earthly kingdom, not eternal life (ie. not salvation).
You can be kicked out and brought back in to that kingdom.
You can't be kicked out of the body of Christ which is all faithful believers.

 

[glorydaz]

Let me color code that verse to see what goes with what.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel [as a whole] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election [the remnant] hath obtained it, and the rest [all but the remnant] were blinded

Only a portion of Israel was blinded, the believing remnant was not.


Verses 1-4 tell of how Elijah complained that all Israel had stumbled except for him, and God says "Nah, I have a remnant of believers within Israel".
And verse 5 says that just as there was a remnant by grace back then, there is also a remnant by grace today.
The believing remnant back then and now were both by grace.

Thank you, that helped immensely.

Now to address the issue of the kind of grace that was available before Christ came.
I submit it was not a fullness of Grace like we have now.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

I'm saying that no one has ever been saved into eternal life except by grace.
Just as Paul tells us that faithful Abraham was justified by faith apart from works back in his day just as the faithful are today.
You can demonstrate your faith with works, but it is your faith that saves, not the demonstration.

Yes, he was justified by faith, but he was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The OT saints were looking for this day to come.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Then, of course, this must be considered a work....burnt offering and sacrifice. And circumcision.

Genesis 22
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. ...

But when it comes to the earthly kingdom promised to Israel, works are involved to remain in that earthy kingdom.
But that is an earthly kingdom, not eternal life (ie. not salvation).
You can be kicked out and brought back in to that kingdom.
You can't be kicked out of the body of Christ which is all faithful believers.

 

[Tambora]

QUESTION:
When the risen Lord Jesus Christ commissioned the gospel Paul was to preach to the whole world, was there any mention it was supposed to be only temporary?

 

[Right Divider]

QUESTION:
When the risen Lord Jesus Christ commissioned the gospel Paul was to preach to the whole world, was there any mention it was supposed to be only temporary?

Not at that time. But if you look at the scripture regarding Israel's future, you can see that it will conducted under different rules than now.

 

[Tambora]

Not at that time.

You mean "not ever" don't you?

But if you look at the scripture regarding Israel's future, you can see that it will conducted under different rules than now.

What rules does scripture say the future Gentile nations will live under?

 

[Right Divider]

You mean "not ever" don't you?

I have assume that he was made aware of it at some point. Particularly since Paul was well aware of the scripture pertaining to it.

What rules does scripture say the future Gentile nations will live under?

They are required to serve Israel.
See Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21.

 

[Tambora]

They are required to serve Israel.

Both Israel and the Gentile nations are required to serve each other.
All believers are supposed to be lights to the whole world to worship YHWH alone as the one true Most High God.

 

[Right Divider]

Both Israel and the Gentile nations are required to serve each other.

True. I wasn't trying to say that it's a one-way street.

All believers are supposed to be lights to the whole world to worship YHWH alone as the one true Most High God.

I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

 

[Tambora]

I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

Me too.

 

[Right Divider]

Me too.

What do you make of this?

Isa 60:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

 

[glorydaz]

QUESTION:
When the risen Lord Jesus Christ commissioned the gospel Paul was to preach to the whole world, was there any mention it was supposed to be only temporary?

I'm thinking this is more than just the blindness of Israel.....the fulness of the Gentiles sure sounds like the end of something.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[glorydaz]

Both Israel and the Gentile nations are required to serve each other.

The nations (unbelievers) will be living under the King of Kings. This is where the turn the other cheek stuff comes in.

All believers are supposed to be lights to the whole world to worship YHWH alone as the one true Most High God.

I think all believers will be in heaven, unless you're talking about the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Tambora]

What do you make of this?

It's a repeat of:

Isaiah 49:22-23 ESV​

(22) Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I will lift up my hand to the nations, and raise my signal to the peoples; and they shall bring your sons in their arms, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders.​

(23) Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you, and lick the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who wait for me shall not be put to shame.”​

Has nice ring to it from the story of Joseph to the Exodus (two sides of the coin of foreign nation treatment).

Joseph in captivity of Egypt (a foreign nation) as a servant, then treated as a well respected family member form it's Pharaoh and earned that family a lot of lunch money.
In contrast to Pharaoh of Moses' day who got a smack down and had his lunch money taken.

 

[Tambora]

The nations (unbelievers) will be living under the King of Kings.

With Israel, one big family of the whole world as God intended to have all along.

This is where the turn the other cheek stuff comes in.

That should always be.

I think all believers will be in heaven, unless you're talking about the new heavens and new earth.

Revelation has believers on earth.

 

[glorydaz]

With Israel, one big family of the whole world as God intended to have all along.

Yep, Israel's kingdom will finally come.

That should always be.

Really? The ONLY time this is going to happen is when Jesus is ruling on the earth.
In fact, it can't happen now because there are too many evil people who would run us into the ground.

Matt. 5:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Revelation has believers on earth.

Yes, those who come to believe during the Tribulation.

 

[glorydaz]

This verse should help keep straight who is who. At least I expect it can if we let it.

1 Corinthians 10:32

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

 

[Derf]

Paul received a different gospel from the Lord.

Can you state both gospels next to each other?