The so-called temple mount was being built in Jesus' day. It was started before he was born and completed after he died.
There is only 3.5 years of Tribulation.
- Thread starter Lazy afternoon
- Start date
The so-called temple mount was being built in Jesus' day. It was started before he was born and completed after he died.
This is why 2 Thessalonians 2 translation of departure, and not falling way, is correct. There is no falling away of the Body of Christ.
Ben Masada
New member
Sorry Jamie but I need an evidence for that one. A quote will do. When Jesus was only 40 days old he was presented at the Temple just prior to their returning to Nazareth in the Galilee. That's according to the gospel of Luke. The Temple was standing during Jesus' lifetime and destroyed only 40 years after Jesus had been gone.
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." Daniel 9: 24
"And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God." Hosea 2: 23
"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9
Daniel 9: 24 talks about "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision..."
Daniel 9: 24 shows us a view of the same time beyond what is called the Church Age, seen also in Revelation 11: 15: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
How can "thy people" in Daniel 9: 24 who take part in this great fulfillment at a time beyond the "Church Age" be only those of the physical bloodline from Abraham?
This can be seen as part of the controversy of Zion, and who is Israel. It is also related to the controversy of the remnant and the multitude.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 26-28
Here is the reason why: "Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal
kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity,
'...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer,
Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp.
315-323..
Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at
least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great
covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a
land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered
throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer
16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are
gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa
60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8)
under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."
Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people.
Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447
"And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God." Hosea 2: 23
"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9
Daniel 9: 24 talks about "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision..."
Daniel 9: 24 shows us a view of the same time beyond what is called the Church Age, seen also in Revelation 11: 15: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
How can "thy people" in Daniel 9: 24 who take part in this great fulfillment at a time beyond the "Church Age" be only those of the physical bloodline from Abraham?
This can be seen as part of the controversy of Zion, and who is Israel. It is also related to the controversy of the remnant and the multitude.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 26-28
Here is the reason why: "Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal
kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity,
'...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer,
Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp.
315-323..
Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at
least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great
covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a
land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered
throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer
16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are
gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa
60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8)
under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."
Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people.
Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447
Ben Masada
New member
I used to find totally impossible that "most Jews would accept the Antichrist as God and worship him". Today I find that no longer impossible, especially considering the thousands of former Jews who have adopted Christianity and worship Jesus as God.
"This bit of archaeological information illustrates the fact that the construction of the Temple Mount walls and Robinson’s Arch was an enormous project that lasted decades and was not completed during Herod’s lifetime," said the IAA, adding that the find confirms descriptions by the Jewish historian Josephus, which state that it was only during the reign of King Agrippa II (Herod’s great-grandson) that the work was finished.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/excav...truction-of-jerusalem-s-western-wall-1.397283
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I used the common vernacular in the OP.
However the great tribulation is not the tribulation of the (one and only) 3.5 years.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
People tie the AOD to what the Lord said after verses 15. (wrong)
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
That verse is what divides the churches in the previous verses--
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
If you learn from men then you will not know what is going on, and most all do not.
LA
:chuckle:
If you ignore the teachings of the Apostles then you end up with that mess.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
LA
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
There is no mention of an endtimes ant-Christ in that passage whatsoever.
The sacrifice and oblation of those verses is not the same wording as--
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
the words "daily sacrifice" are incorrect there. The wording is "daily" alone, and it can refer to the daily light or sheep.
The OT teachings of the temple, refer to the NT temple happenings of the true Church in the world.
The true church is the light of the world, and sheep for the slaughter every day.
The Abomination in the endtimes is the incursion of the world into the churches including another king.
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
LA
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
There is no mention of an endtimes ant-Christ in that passage whatsoever.
The sacrifice and oblation of those verses is not the same wording as--
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
the words "daily sacrifice" are incorrect there. The wording is "daily" alone, and it can refer to the daily light or sheep.
The OT teachings of the temple, refer to the NT temple happenings of the true Church in the world.
The true church is the light of the world, and sheep for the slaughter every day.
The Abomination in the endtimes is the incursion of the world into the churches including another king.
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
LA
"The Abomination in the endtimes is the incursion of the world into the churches including another king."
The reason why the man of sin sitting in the temple of God is metaphor in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is because of Acts 7: 48, I Corinthians 3: 16-17 and i Corinthians 6: 19. In the New Covenant period God does not dwell in temples made by human hands and the temple of God is now the Christians themselves.
Paul in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is talking about a spirit of heresy, or a spirit of anti-Christ taking over those who claim to be Christians when an apostasy.begins, translated as falling away. This apostasy, from the Greek αποστασια, apostasia, in II Thessalonians 2: 3, is what is meant by the prophecy of an abomination of desolation being set up during the time of the New Covenant, before the beginning of the tribulation period.
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." II Peter 2: 1
II Peter 2: 1-3 does not say when this bringing in of heresies is to occur or whether it happens more than once.
One guy among those who are interested in the remnant is saying that Daniel 9: 27,"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..." refers not to Christ confirming the New Covenant, but to Isaiah 28: 15-18 "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."
He has a point since Christ did not confirm the New Covenant just for one week. I will have to ask him if he means that this week as being the entire gospel era from the cross to the second coming applies to the multitude, but not to the remnant, especially not the end time remnant - because of Revelation 7: 1-8, Revelation 14:1-5 and Revelation 12: 15-17, and the doctrine of the remnant implied in Isaiah 10: 20-23, Romans 9: 27-28 and Romans 11: 1-5. When the multitude goes into false doctrines and practices, God raises up his remnant.
The reason why the man of sin sitting in the temple of God is metaphor in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is because of Acts 7: 48, I Corinthians 3: 16-17 and i Corinthians 6: 19. In the New Covenant period God does not dwell in temples made by human hands and the temple of God is now the Christians themselves.
Paul in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is talking about a spirit of heresy, or a spirit of anti-Christ taking over those who claim to be Christians when an apostasy.begins, translated as falling away. This apostasy, from the Greek αποστασια, apostasia, in II Thessalonians 2: 3, is what is meant by the prophecy of an abomination of desolation being set up during the time of the New Covenant, before the beginning of the tribulation period.
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." II Peter 2: 1
II Peter 2: 1-3 does not say when this bringing in of heresies is to occur or whether it happens more than once.
One guy among those who are interested in the remnant is saying that Daniel 9: 27,"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..." refers not to Christ confirming the New Covenant, but to Isaiah 28: 15-18 "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."
He has a point since Christ did not confirm the New Covenant just for one week. I will have to ask him if he means that this week as being the entire gospel era from the cross to the second coming applies to the multitude, but not to the remnant, especially not the end time remnant - because of Revelation 7: 1-8, Revelation 14:1-5 and Revelation 12: 15-17, and the doctrine of the remnant implied in Isaiah 10: 20-23, Romans 9: 27-28 and Romans 11: 1-5. When the multitude goes into false doctrines and practices, God raises up his remnant.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I don't go with the metaphor because in all other passages Paul speaks of the whole thing happening in that generation, very soon. I think he meant the temple, and the leader of the Jewish revolt did set up shop there.
As for confirming the covenant for a week, I believe you will find that the grammar is referring to the amount of time taken to do so, not the length of a covenant. Now this is interesting because we have the 40 year span, which echoes so many things in Judaism. Ie, I think Daniel is just saying that he is going to spend that much time explaining this new covenant. I have read that some account for a 'week' (of 7 years) by adding his ministry to the amount of time between the resurrection and the stoning of Stephen. Apparently it is 7 years. That stoning even is the last (and certainly most vivid and sharp) warning to Israel, and then the mission of the Gospel is fully underway.
By assigning this 7 years to Christ, the last verse of Dan 9 continues to stand on its own as a separate description of the utter devastation that befell.
beameup
New member
Obviously you adhere to Replacement Theology. You are a Supersessionist.
You have a massive amount of scripture which you must "spiritualize" and "allegoricalize" or otherwise make to disappear, in order to support your position. This is essentially what the Catholic Church did in the 4th Century.
Where does the "allegoricalization" of scripture stop and the literal understanding begin? It doesn't, as you have created a God who's word is worthless and who's promises and commitments unreliable.
Interplanner
Well-known member
But the literalists come along to a passage which will have fairly clear historical reference and KA-CHING all of a sudden they insert X000 years, and call it literal!!!
The real RT problem (the one in Paul's time) is addressed in Gal 3:17, and I'm sorry to inform you that you have it backwards. The one that exists today is there because of the mistaken belief in 2P2P.
beameup
New member
Replacement Theology was "pushed" by Augustine of Hippo at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and became the "cornerstone" of the State Religion headed by Emperor Constantine. From "Replacement Theology" we eventually got the gassing and burning of 6 million Jews under "The Third Reich".
Check the world map. I believe that you will find that God is fulfilling prophecy in the fact that "Israel" exists since 1948 and over 1/2 of the Jews world-wide have already migrated there.
Can you find another part of the earth that is "on the front page" daily? Gee, I wonder why??
musterion
Well-known member
Don't forget the Reformed, who "are" "Israel."
Epoisses
New member
Don't forget to read Romans 2 either!
Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Rom. 2:26
Circumcision was the sign of being a Jew. What's a circumcised heart the sign of?
"Replacement Theology was "pushed" by Augustine of Hippo at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and became the "cornerstone" of the State Religion headed by Emperor Constantine. From "Replacement Theology" we eventually got the gassing and burning of 6 million Jews under "The Third Reich"."
The Marxist version of he Hegelian dialectic over-emphasizes opposites or the two sides of a conflict. The Nazi movement was in opposition in the thirties to the Marxist or Communist movement in Germany. The Communists were trying to bully the Germans, who were in some decadence during the Weimar Republic and after a while the Nazi Brownshirts began to bully the Communists and showed themselves to be tougher than them. In part, in the dialectic of exaggeration of differences in public perception, the Nazis observed that many Jewish people were behind the 1917 Communist Russian Revolution which led to the Marxists being in Germany in the twenties and thirties trying to take over Germany.
Under the Marxist version of the dialectic and of Marxist political correctness, it is politically incorrect to point out that one of the reasons why the Nazis were so opposed to the Jews was because of their role in the Russian Revolution. The Marxists were in Germany and opposing the Nazis who understood that many Jews had led the Marxist takeover of Russia, as Solzhenitsyn later confirmed.
To point this out is not necessarily being pro-Nazi or pro-Fascist but in the upside down world of political correctness it is fascist and racist to do so.
The Marxist version of he Hegelian dialectic over-emphasizes opposites or the two sides of a conflict. The Nazi movement was in opposition in the thirties to the Marxist or Communist movement in Germany. The Communists were trying to bully the Germans, who were in some decadence during the Weimar Republic and after a while the Nazi Brownshirts began to bully the Communists and showed themselves to be tougher than them. In part, in the dialectic of exaggeration of differences in public perception, the Nazis observed that many Jewish people were behind the 1917 Communist Russian Revolution which led to the Marxists being in Germany in the twenties and thirties trying to take over Germany.
Under the Marxist version of the dialectic and of Marxist political correctness, it is politically incorrect to point out that one of the reasons why the Nazis were so opposed to the Jews was because of their role in the Russian Revolution. The Marxists were in Germany and opposing the Nazis who understood that many Jews had led the Marxist takeover of Russia, as Solzhenitsyn later confirmed.
To point this out is not necessarily being pro-Nazi or pro-Fascist but in the upside down world of political correctness it is fascist and racist to do so.
beameup
New member
The Jews have had a long yearning to "heal the world", as the Old Testament speaks of a glorious future of "fairness" and lack of need among mankind. Tikkun olam (Hebrew: תיקון עולם or תקון עולם ) -- literally, "repair of the world" is this common Jewish belief.
With the absence of a literal "Israel" some Jews abandoned the hope of a literal Israel and even abandoned God, but they never gave up the utopian ideal of Tikkun olam. There has been a great "push" recently by Jewish descendants to create "fairness" through Liberal Social Action.
However, Jews fail to comprehend the Holiness of God and the wretchedness of man. Without the presence of a Holy Messiah on earth, this "utopia" would surely fail.
The churches fall away and with them the government and the people and as restraint is removed the western world revels in its luxuries and deep sin.
If you do not know that then you have not been listening to Christ.
LA