There is only 3.5 years of Tribulation.

L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
(from the AOD onward)

Do not let anyone tell you that any period of 7 years exists in the NT.

They will try because men taught them who heard it from other men and so on.(followers of men)

There are 3.5 years of tribulation at the end of which Christ returns and pours out 30 days of the vials of wrath followed by 45 days of preparation for the Holy City to be established.

Daniel said so--

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

LA
 
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northwye

New member
Daniel 12:11: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

Daniel 9: 26-27 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The key question is who is "he" in Daniel 9: 27, who confirms the covenant, in the midst of the week shall cause the sacrifice to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation. "He" would refer to a person named in a previous verse.

The most likely "he" is the Messiah. When did the Messiah cause the daily sacrifice to be taken away?

What is the the abomination that maketh desolate or the abomination of desolation?

In Matthew 24: 15 the abomination of desolation is mentioned. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

The period of time in Daniel 12: 11 is between the time when the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination of desolation set up. That time is said to be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Dispensationalism-Christian Zionism would place the setting up of the abomination of desolation in the future.

In order to make use of a literal three and a half years between the time when the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation set up, dispensationalism-Christian Zionism cannot say that it is the Messiah - Jesus Christ - who takes away the daily sacrifice because he did that about 2,000 years ago.

So Christian Zionism may say that the "he" in Daniel 9: 27 is not the Messiah but their one man anti-Christ. This is not a good idea to claim that it is the anti-Christ and not Jesus Christ who stopped the daily sacrifice. Hebrews deals with Jesus Christ himself as the sacrifice, and as Hebrews 9: 28 says Christ himself was offered once as a sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10: 1-9 explains that had the animal sacrifice system been able to make sinners perfect, the animal sacrifices would not have ceased (Hebrews 10: 2). Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first that he may establish the second." He, Jesus Christ, the Messiah in Daniel 9: 26, took away he daily sacrifice, not the Christian Zionist anti-Christ.

It is much more important to get doctrine right, than to propose literal time periods for the tribulation period.
 
WonderfulLordJesus

WonderfulLordJesus

New member
Threads like this are always somewhat amusing, and curious. As others have pointed out, there's a long line of fundamentalist theologians, seminarians, great men of God, who find the 7 year tribulation period, or time of Jacob's trouble, in scripture harmony. I've seen it, right there in scripture, just as that long line of theologians has. People get hungup on words: alright, the last 3 1/2 years is the great tribulation, then. But, as soon as the seals of Revelation 6 are opened and the antichrist comes forth, this is the beginning of, or near the beginning of, Daniel's 70th week, clear there's a course of events in the apocalypse, beginning with the rider on the white horse going forth to conquer, peace then wars ensuing scripture teaches, prior to the middle of that week and the final 3 1/2 years Revelation goes on to describe, such as in Revelation 12. It's all plainly there in scripture, including the New Testament. Obviously, the judgments of the Lord and tribulations begin with those seals being opened.

Anyway, could you please provide some reason Lazy Afternoon, of the anonymous message board, should be sought after as the end-all in this matter? What your credentials are, such that nobody else should be listened as to Daniel's 70th week, I take it nobody else on the entire planet, but you? I'm sorry, but I just find such claims humorous, "Don't listen to anybody else but me!" What's curious is whether you ever get to feeling a little too lofty, when everybody who's somebody, of the Spirit, at that, disagrees with you?
 
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B

Ben Masada

New member
northwye said:
D

What is the the abomination that maketh desolate or the abomination of desolation?

.
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To give you a modern answer to this question above, the abomination of desolation is the Misgad of Umar aka the Dome of the Rock still standing on the Temple Mount. That has caused the tribulation that affects the Jewish soul for 2,000 years since the day our Temple was destroyed.
 
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Ben Masada

New member
Lazy afternoon said:
There are 3.5 years of tribulation at the end of which Christ returns and pours out 30 days of the vials of wrath followed by 45 days of preparation for the Holy City to be established.

Daniel said so--

LA
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Daniel said 70 week/years and at the end of which "Christ" would return. That's true because, indeed, "Christ" did return. Now, to understand this prophecy, you must first understand the meaning of "Christ." Christ is in Greek but, the equivalent in Hebrew means the anointed one of the Lord. Now, if you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Jewish People which indeed returned after the 70 years had passed for the Jews in captivity in Babylon.
 
N

northwye

New member
The Greek military under Seleucid king Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who ruled Palestine from 175-64 B.C., went into the Jewish temple building and stopped the regular sacrifices, set up an idol to Zeus, and supposedly offered pigs as sacrifice. This was an abomination because it brought desolation by defiling the holy place of Old Covenant Israel.

This is the literal abomination of desolation. But the abomination of desolation of Matthew 25: 14-23, is a prophecy for the great tribulation in the time of the New Covenant. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:).....For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24: 14-15, 21.

For the literalists - the dispensationalist-Christian Zionists - the abomination of desolation would be a kind of re-enactment of the event when the forces under Antiochus Epiphanes IV defiled the temple in Jerusalem.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." II Thessalonians 2: 3-4

The reason for seeing the man of sin sitting in the temple of God as being metaphor is Acts 7: 48,I Corinthians 3: 16-17 and I Corinthians 6: 19. God does not live in temples made by human hands, and Christians are now the temple of God.

There no literal, physical temple of God which would be defiled by a man sitting in it claiming to be God.

Paul in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is talking about a spirit of false doctrines, a spirit of anti-Christ, a attitude of heresy taking over the people who claim to be Christians. Is this not what is meant by the prophecy of an abomination of desolation being set up during the time of the New Covenant, before the beginning of the tribulation? period?
 
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Ben Masada

New member
northwye said:
So Christian Zionism may say that the "he" in Daniel 9: 27 is not the Messiah but their one man anti-Christ. This is not a good idea to claim that it is the anti-Christ and not Jesus Christ who stopped the daily sacrifice. Hebrews deals with Jesus Christ himself as the sacrifice, and as Hebrews 9: 28 says Christ himself was offered once as a sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10: 1-9 explains that had the animal sacrifice system been able to make sinners perfect, the animal sacrifices would not have ceased (Hebrews 10: 2). Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first that he may establish the second." He, Jesus Christ, the Messiah in Daniel 9: 26, took away he daily sacrifice, not the Christian Zionist anti-Christ.
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I do not acknowledge the statement "Christian Zionism" but Jewish Zionism because not all Jews are Zionists but, every Zionist is a Jew.

Antiochus Epiphanes was the one who stopped the daily sacrifices by making a covenant with the Hellenist Jews and by setting up the abomination of desolation in place until the destruction of it by the Maccabees. So, Antiochus was the Antichrist and the text had nothing to do with Jesus.

Now, the Pauline claim that Jesus was offered as a sacrifice for sin is contradicted by the Prophets of the Most High in Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20
by declaring that no one can die for the sins of another.

And for the statement in Hebrew 10:9 that, "He takes away the first that he may establish the second" is a reference to the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. The meaning was to replace the levitical Jewish Priesthood with the Priesthood of Jesus who even a Levite was not.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
beameup said:
The "seventieth week" of Daniel is 7 years long.
see Daniel 9:24-27
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Yes, but only the latter half of the week is in view in the future because Christ appeared at the beginning of the 70th week, confirmed the covenant for 3.5 years, was cut off in the middle of the week thus ending the sacrifices and washings of the old covenant.

The further 3.5 years is the subject of Daniel ch12 and the book of Rev.in the future which begins with two major events.

1. the Abom of Des.and the removal of Christs presence from the visible churches.

2. The anointing of Christ's Bride where only among them will men be able to find Christ.

(Act 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Act 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
Act 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

LA
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
The only sure clue we have on the 70 weeks is that the persno who is the abomination that desolates was ID'd by Christ in that generation. The horrible period was 3.5 years. The city and temple were desolated.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Lazy afternoon said:
(from the AOD onward)

Do not let anyone tell you that any period of 7 years exists in the NT.

They will try because men taught them who heard it from other men and so on.(followers of men)

There are 3.5 years of tribulation at the end of which Christ returns and pours out 30 days of the vials of wrath followed by 45 days of preparation for the Holy City to be established.

Daniel said so--

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

LA
Click to expand...

The 2300 days will be the first 2/3rds of the trib and the three and a half years will be the end. Those days will be cut short so they could be three years or two and a half, no one knows but God. Total tribulation period will be 8-10 years.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
northwye said:
Daniel 12:11: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

Daniel 9: 26-27 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The key question is who is "he" in Daniel 9: 27, who confirms the covenant, in the midst of the week shall cause the sacrifice to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation. "He" would refer to a person named in a previous verse.

The most likely "he" is the Messiah. When did the Messiah cause the daily sacrifice to be taken away?

What is the the abomination that maketh desolate or the abomination of desolation?

In Matthew 24: 15 the abomination of desolation is mentioned. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

The period of time in Daniel 12: 11 is between the time when the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination of desolation set up. That time is said to be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Dispensationalism-Christian Zionism would place the setting up of the abomination of desolation in the future.

In order to make use of a literal three and a half years between the time when the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation set up, dispensationalism-Christian Zionism cannot say that it is the Messiah - Jesus Christ - who takes away the daily sacrifice because he did that about 2,000 years ago.

So Christian Zionism may say that the "he" in Daniel 9: 27 is not the Messiah but their one man anti-Christ. This is not a good idea to claim that it is the anti-Christ and not Jesus Christ who stopped the daily sacrifice. Hebrews deals with Jesus Christ himself as the sacrifice, and as Hebrews 9: 28 says Christ himself was offered once as a sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10: 1-9 explains that had the animal sacrifice system been able to make sinners perfect, the animal sacrifices would not have ceased (Hebrews 10: 2). Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first that he may establish the second." He, Jesus Christ, the Messiah in Daniel 9: 26, took away he daily sacrifice, not the Christian Zionist anti-Christ.

It is much more important to get doctrine right, than to propose literal time periods for the tribulation period.
Click to expand...

At least they are in the right century which I cannot say about you. The gospel will go to all the world in the last days not the 70AD days.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Ben Masada said:
I do not acknowledge the statement "Christian Zionism" but Jewish Zionism because not all Jews are Zionists but, every Zionist is a Jew.

Antiochus Epiphanes was the one who stopped the daily sacrifices by making a covenant with the Hellenist Jews and by setting up the abomination of desolation in place until the destruction of it by the Maccabees. So, Antiochus was the Antichrist and the text had nothing to do with Jesus.

Now, the Pauline claim that Jesus was offered as a sacrifice for sin is contradicted by the Prophets of the Most High in Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20
by declaring that no one can die for the sins of another.

And for the statement in Hebrew 10:9 that, "He takes away the first that he may establish the second" is a reference to the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. The meaning was to replace the levitical Jewish Priesthood with the Priesthood of Jesus who even a Levite was not.
Click to expand...

Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolation as future from his day. AE is excluded.
 
beameup

beameup

New member
Just to set the record straight:
“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), Matt 24:25
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“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved -- Matt 24:21-22a
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L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I used the common vernacular in the OP.

However the great tribulation is not the tribulation of the (one and only) 3.5 years.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

People tie the AOD to what the Lord said after verses 15. (wrong)

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

That verse is what divides the churches in the previous verses--

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

If you learn from men then you will not know what is going on, and most all do not.

LA
 
beameup

beameup

New member
The 70th Week deals specifically with Israel, the prophecy is non-applicable to "the Church, the Body of Christ. The prophecy is limited to "thy people" - the Jews - and will bring to completion all elements of the prophecy. As well, Matthew 24 applies to "thy people" Israel (ie: Jews).

Daniel chapter 11 was already fulfilled under the Greeks, beginning with Alexander the Great, and continuing with the Ptolemys (Egypt) and Selucids (Syria/Israel), even describing Antiochus Epiphanes' "Abomination of Desolation".

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [Antichrist, False-Messiah]
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. -- 2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4
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There is only one place to "sit" in the Temple, and that is the Mercy Seat. Most Jews will accept Antichrist as God and will worship him, but a remnant will flee to safety (the remnant that Jesus returns to earth to save).
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. - John 5:43
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