The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

Damian

New member
Bob Hill said:
lightninboy and Pastor Kevin,

I don't have the time tonight to respond, but those were great posts.

Bob Hill

Bob,

This is Jesus' gospel. It clearly teaches that two elements are required: "belief" and "baptism." Which dispensation is the gospel of Jesus applicable to? The Dispensation of the Circumcision (Jews) or the Dispensation of the Gentiles?

Now, if it is intended only for the Jews, why is Jesus telling the eleven to "go into all the world?"

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Mark 16:15, 16

Incidentally, dispensationlism may solve some problems here and there. But it opens up a whole new set of different problems. And besides, the epistles of Paul clearly do not teach unconditional security.
 

lightninboy

Member
I have endeavored to show that eternal life was by grace through faith plus nothing in all dispensations.
If a MAD theologian teaches otherwise, he is wrong.
I have an inkling suspicion that Bob Enyart is wrong, though I know little about him and may agree with him on a lot of things.
If C.I. Scofield taught otherwise, he was wrong.

http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html

It is rather ironic that a Grace Movement proponent would be so much against grace for a certain people in a certain time.

People of such behavior resemble the proponents of Lordship Salvation for this age.

So now the issue is whether to go with grace Acts 2 Dispensationalism or grace MAD such as promoted by Jerry Shugart.

I am a little skeptical of the Rapture. I reserve myself the right to switch to a view of Covenant Theology or such if I'm in the mood for it.

But many of the most active grace people I know are Acts 2 Dispensationalists and I will tend to stick with them for this discussion. I am open to a MAD view if proven needed.
 
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Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Damien wrote:
I am simply saying that Mark 16:15, 16 says the following:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Personally, I do not have a vested interest in the matter. My Christianity is not biblically-based. However, I am capable of reading the verse. And the verse says clearly to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel"...."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

When we look at God's Word from a dispensational viewpoint, we see that God used different dispensational programs at different times. That's why the Bible says we should rightly divide the Word.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Today, we are saved by God's grace through the faithfulness of the Lord Jesus going to the cross to bear our sins. What we have to do in this Dispensation of Grace is believe that Christ died for our sins. When we sincerely believe, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and cannot lose our salvation.

Bob Hill
 

Damian

New member
Bob Hill said:
When we look at God's Word from a dispensational viewpoint, we see that God used different dispensational programs at different times. That's why the Bible says we should rightly divide the Word.

Bob,

I would appreciate it if you would reply to questions that were specifically addressed to you by me.

Damian said:
This is Jesus' gospel. It clearly teaches that two elements are required: "belief" and "baptism." Which dispensation is the gospel of Jesus applicable to? The Dispensation of the Circumcision (Jews) or the Dispensation of the Gentiles?

Now, if it is intended only for the Jews, why is Jesus telling the eleven to "go into all the world?"

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Mark 16:15, 16
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Damian,

It does show "Jesus telling the eleven to "go into all the world?"

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned Mark 16:15, 16

But they didn't do that, and God set that dispensation aside and started a new one with Paul, called the Dispensation of Grace.

At first Paul baptised some who responded to the gospel, but later he found that baptism wasn't part of the program for the Dispensation of Grace.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
It is interesting to see what happened to Christ’s 11 apostles.

Mat 15:21-28 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” 27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mat 10:5-8 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.”

Mat 24:9-14 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

We even see that, in Mark 16:15-18 Christ said, to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

However, they never went into all the world. Instead, God set Israel aside and raised up the Apostle Paul with a new message – the Dispensation of Grace.

Bob Hill
 

Damian

New member
Bob Hill said:
We even see that, in Mark 16:15-18 Christ said, to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

However, they never went into all the world. Instead, God set Israel aside and raised up the Apostle Paul with a new message – the Dispensation of Grace.

Bob,

Please don't be evasive. An honest question deserves an honest answer.

Previously you stated in this thread:

Bob Hill said:
There are extremely important, major differences between our dispensation of grace and the circumcision dispensation. Works for salvation and water baptism are two of the big differences between the circumcision gospel and the gospel that God gave to Paul.

Now, Mark 16 refers to what gospel? The circumcision gospel or the dispensation of grace?
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Christ told them in Mat 28:19,20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

But, instead, God raised up Saul, gave him a new dispensation, and called Saul, who was also named Paul, to be a light to the Gentiles.

The Body of Christ, therefore, started with the conversion of Paul.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Therefore, in response to your question:

Now, Mark 16 refers to what gospel? The circumcision gospel or the dispensation of grace?

Obviously, the circumcision gospel.

It wasn't until God raised up Paul that the new Gospel of Grace was presented to the World.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Eph 3:1-3 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - 2 if indeed you have heard of the Dispensation of the Grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already).

That's our Dispensation of Grace!

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
It says that we, who are not of Israel, are in the dispensation of the grace of God in Eph 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you.

According to Eph 1:3, we see that God wants to pour out spiritual blessings on us Christians. As Christians, we see that these blessings are accomplished by the Father. Eph 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.” But, it goes further. God chose us, corporately, in Christ. Whether this corporation was foreknown as a corporation or as individuals, is debatable. Eph 1:4 “in as much as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.”

This word in the Greek can be translated I select, or I choose. So the first thing we should know, is Jesus Christ is the selected one. Christ is the one in and by whom the Father accomplishes His blessings. Isaiah 42:1 prophesied: “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.” Christ was chosen to be the redeemer, not just for Israel, but also for Gentiles.

The body of Christ was a mystery, hidden in God until He revealed it to the Apostle Paul. Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and mutual partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

That passage should be our marching orders for today.

Bob Hill
 

PKevman

New member
Damian said:
Please don't be evasive. An honest question deserves an honest answer.

Regardless if you agree with Bob's positions or not he is hardly being evasive. He answer directly and with Scriptures. Oh wait I forgot, you said your Christianity is not based on the Bible........and that you were BORN saved. I'd sure like to know how that works.....

Damian, please don't accuse men of God, especially elders like Bob, of being dishonest and evasive. We always answer honestly and from our hearts, and when you say stuff like this it only alienates you further. Bob Hill is a preacher of the gospel and as such deserves to be honored for his work in the Word.
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Colossians 1:24-27 reiterates this.

Col 1:24-27 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions for Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25&26 of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God, the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

Getting back to Eph 1:3-14, first, the whole passage: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

When we look at it more closely, I believe the election of men is only in Christ. When a person yields to the prompting of the Holy Spirit and believes that Christ died for him, then, he becomes a member of Christ’s body, the church. Outside of Christ, according to the Bible, there is no election of anyone. In Eph 1:4, God chose us in Christ. In verse 5, God gave the predestinated adoption to us. In verse 11, God definitely showed that we are inheritors in Christ. In verse 13, God sealed us in Christ. Therefore, we see love and blessings here, not fatalism.

So, we are chosen and sealed because we believed in Christ. Eph 1:4,12,13 “just as He chose us in Him 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.”

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
God didn’t choose us to be saved. He wants all to be saved, 1 Tim 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

He chose us to be holy and blameless. Eph 1:4 “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blame before Him in love.” He chose everyone who would believe in Christ to be holy and blameless.

Christ paid with His life. He made it certain with predestination. Eph 1:5 “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. And He did all this by His grace. Eph 1:6 “to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

So, God’s election is not to salvation. It is to perfection because we are in Christ. It is for our eternal security. We who trust in Christ as our Savior have this security. This is a spiritual blessing for the body of Christ alone.

Now, in verse 5, what is God’s will? I believe we can break God’s will down into 3 scriptural categories. His intentional will (thelayma), His circumstantial will (thelayma), and His ultimate, or determinate will or counsel (boulay).

When we look at His intentional will, the first thing we should see is this. We were created for His will (pleasure). The question we must keep in mind here, is: do we ever thwart God’s intentional will?

Rev 4:11 “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.” Next, as part of this, He wants us all to love Him.

Mk 12:30,31 “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”

1 Co 16:22 “If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come! Then, He wants us all to love one another.”

John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.”

1 Th 4:9,10 “But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more.

The question we must keep in mind here is: do we ever thwart God’s intentional will? In answer, we see that He wills all to be saved. 1 Tim 2:4 “who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

But, because man totally rebelled against God, in order to receive salvation, man must believe God and do what He says for salvation. Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Heb 10:36 “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise.”

For us in this dispensation of grace, His will is found in Acts 16:31, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”

Next, we see His will is that we be holy. 1 Th 4:3-8 “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.” Do we thwart His will here?

Then, we find His will is that we function in the local body. 1 Co 12:18,20-27 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. But many are not obeying God in this way. But do all believers function in a local body? I’m afraid not.

Further, we find His will is that we all know the mystery. Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ. But most Christians do not even know what the dispensation of the mystery is.

Col 1:27 “To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.” Again, do all Christians know “what is the dispensation of the mystery”?

I’ve found from experience that a majority of “Christians” I have met, do not know “what is the dispensation of the mystery” is.

Bob Hill
 

Damian

New member
Bob Hill said:
Therefore, in response to your question:



Obviously, the circumcision gospel.

It wasn't until God raised up Paul that the new Gospel of Grace was presented to the World.

Bob Hill

Okay. Evidently, the dispensation of the circumcision preceded the dispensation of grace. Hopefully you will acknowledge that Acts 2:38 accords with Christ's "Great Commission" in Mark 16:15,16.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Are there two bodies of Christ? Remember this is Pentecost. The gospel is being preached to the "circumcision."

47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:47

Now, specifically, at what point in the book of Acts does the "Dispensation of the Circumcision" end? By the way, why is it placed on hold? Because the gospel was formally presented to Israel and the Jews as a whole rejected it? When does the Dispensation of the Circumcision resume? The Tribulation?

Also, is there a difference between baptism under Peter and under Paul? Is baptism during the Dispensation of Grace performed in the name of Jesus Christ only, not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:44-48
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
God’s will is that we teach the mystery to others.

2 Ti 2:1-2 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Do you know many Christians who are able to teach the mystery?

Unfortunately, neither do I know of very many.

Bob Hill
 

Damian

New member
PastorKevin said:
Regardless if you agree with Bob's positions or not he is hardly being evasive. He answer directly and with Scriptures. Oh wait I forgot, you said your Christianity is not based on the Bible........and that you were BORN saved. I'd sure like to know how that works.....

It would appear that you are redirecting your anger. I never said I was born saved. I said I was born a Christian. How does it work? God created me in Christ.

PastorKevin said:
Damian, please don't accuse men of God, especially elders like Bob, of being dishonest and evasive.

I think Bob would be hard-pressed to say that I have been disrespectful. And the truth of the matter is that he has been evasive. That's why I said "PLEASE don't be evasive." And if Bob believes that I am disrepectful, why don't you allow Bob the opportunity to slander my reputation? I don't see any reason why you have to take this responsibility upon yourself.

PastorKevin said:
We always answer honestly and from our hearts, and when you say stuff like this it only alienates you further. Bob Hill is a preacher of the gospel and as such deserves to be honored for his work in the Word.

I have accorded Bob respect. I have accorded you respect. I have asked an honest question; I expect an honest answer. I am sorry that this is a point of contention for you; hopefully you will learn to work it out.
 
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