The Vicarious Life and Death of Christ for the Believer

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Paul said repeatedly that His death forgives us and His resurrection justifies us, not His earthly life.



Simple. For the sake of Israel, to prove He is the Messiah foretold in their Law and their Prophets. THAT is the sense in which He fulfilled the Law.


That is okay if you want to believe that. I am not going to try and fulfill that void with my own life.

I prefer to believe that the righteous life of Jesus was lived for me.

"For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNES shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ" Romans 5:17.

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the OBEDIENCE OF ONE shall many be made righteousness" Romans 5:19.


There is nothing about the DBR in these scriptures. Not that the DBR is not part of our salvation.
 

God's Truth

New member
The madists and all faith alone people think that the New Covenant, and the same meaning word 'New Testament', was thrown out and Paul taught something else.

I fear for you all who preach that Paul has ignored the Last Will and Testament of Jesus Christ.
 

God's Truth

New member
That is okay if you want to believe that. I am not going to try and fulfill that void with my own life.

I prefer to believe that the righteous life of Jesus was lived for me.

"For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNES shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ" Romans 5:17.

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the OBEDIENCE OF ONE shall many be made righteousness" Romans 5:19.


There is nothing about the DBR in these scriptures. Not that the DBR is not part of our salvation.

So did you believe in Jesus and repent of your sins?
 

musterion

Well-known member
That is okay if you want to believe that. I am not going to try and fulfill that void with my own life.

I prefer to believe that the righteous life of Jesus was lived for me.[/

"For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNES shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ" Romans 5:17.

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the OBEDIENCE OF ONE shall many be made righteousness" Romans 5:19.


There is nothing about the DBR in these scriptures. Not that the DBR is not part of our salvation.

His life NOW, indwelling the believer NOW, is the life Paul was talking about. Not His earthly walk in what is called His humiliation. Paul NOWHERE says that and I believe claiming it violates 2 Cor 5:16.

As to His obedience...Phil 2:8. Why'd you leave that one out? Oh, because it destroys the false case you're twisting Scripture to build. Wasn't His obedience life on earth that saves us, it was His obedient DEATH.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
His life NOW, indwelling the believer NOW, is the life Paul was talking about. Not His earthly walk in what is called His humiliation. Paul NOWHERE says that and I believe claiming it violates 2 Cor 5:16.

As to His obedience...Phil 2:8. Why'd you leave that one out? Oh, because it destroys the false case you're twisting Scripture to build. Wasn't His obedience life on earth that saves us, it was His obedient DEATH.

We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, not the life of Christ, That is Catholic doctrine. Jesus is present in the Holy Spirit, but he is not doing another work. The work of Christ is a finished work that was consummated over 2000 years ago.

Romans 5:17-19 is what Jesus accomplished for us.

We receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness, Romans 5:17.

The free gift (Jesus) came upon all men unto justification of life, Romans 5:18,

By the obedience of one many are made righteous, Romans 5:19.

Yes, he was obedient unto death, but his obedience also fulfilled God's law for us. Salvation is deliverance from the law. Jesus victoriously fulfilled it, then he abolished it for us. We now stand as perfect and complete "In Christ", Colossians 2:10.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Galatians 2:20


@JohnW, get a load of this. Just when you thought it couldn't get worse.

Christ is present in the Holy Spirit, but he is not doing another work in us. The work of Christ is a finished work.

The Biblical emphasis is Christ in heaven at the right hand of God as our intercessor and our mediator and not indwelling the believer.

I am surprised that you would confer with the trash talker.
 

God's Truth

New member
It doesn't say that. Paul plainly says that all have sinned, Romans 3:10.

In Romans 3:20, Paul is explaining that Jews in the Old Testament were justified by obeying the law of circumcision, various external washings, various sin offerings, adherence to the dietary laws, and the observance of special days. They did not yet have Jesus to believe in, BUT NOW, NO ONE WILL BE JUSTIFIED FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT LAW. Paul is explaining that we must all go through Jesus now. Again, Jesus was not known by all in the Old Testament law, the law was not based on faith to be made clean before God, as we are by the law of faith in the New Testament, for Jesus' blood made us clean; the law in the Old Testament had certain works to do to make oneself clean before God. No one will be justified in that way anymore.

Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.


Paul is quoting Psalm14:1-3; 53:1-3; and Ecclesiastes 7:20. Ecclesiastes SAYS there is not a RIGHTEOUS man who does what is right and NEVER SINS. Ecclesiastes tells us that there ARE RIGHTEOUS men but none who NEVER sin. Paul is explaining that the Jews were sinners just like the Gentiles. Nowhere in these passages or scriptures anywhere does it say none have to obey.

In this same Ecclesiastes 7, Solomon tells us about wise men, righteous men, and about a man who pleases God. Solomon also tells us that he found one upright man among a thousand. The Bible tells us that there are people who want to do right.

Now read on to Romans 3:21-26.

Righteousness Through Faith
Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.


In Romans 3:21, we see that those who want to obey God--now is made known a way--faith in Jesus Christ. The way has been MADE KNOWN. The way has been MADE KNOWN. We have the choice to believe and obey God or reject Him.

The scriptures say that this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ TO ALL WHO BELIEVE. This does NOT even imply that we believe just to believe, but we are to believe what Jesus says, and what does he say? He says to obey. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD...now all can be saved, Jew and Gentile, just by believing and obeying Jesus.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
GT

There is no scripture that says obedience to the law saves. There are many, many scriptures that say that we are justified (made right with God) by faith, mainly faith in Jesus Christ.

Works, repentance, obedience are all works of the law and don't save.

Paul makes it clear that salvation is a gift from God, Ephesians 2:8. A gift cannot be earned or deserved. It can only be received, John 1:12.

You apparently want to make it something that must be earned by your obedience to the law. It is not going to happen that way.
 

God's Truth

New member
GT

There is no scripture that says obedience to the law saves. There are many, many scriptures that say that we are justified (made right with God) by faith, mainly faith in Jesus Christ.

Works, repentance, obedience are all works of the law and don't save.

Paul makes it clear that salvation is a gift from God, Ephesians 2:8. A gift cannot be earned or deserved. It can only be received, John 1:12.

You apparently want to make it something that must be earned by your obedience to the law. It is not going to happen that way.

No, RP, we are saved by obeying God. God told the people in the Old Testament that if they obey they will be His children.

Psalm 50:23 Whoever sacrifices a thank offering honors Me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God."

...and many more.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
No, RP, we are saved by obeying God. God told the people in the Old Testament that if they obey they will be His children.

Psalm 50:23 Whoever sacrifices a thank offering honors Me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God."


You had to go get Old Testament scripture that was written under the law to make your point? That alone should tell you that you are in error.

God's people are no longer under the law, nor are they subject to it. You remind me of the stupid Galatians that wanted to be under the law. Paul said to them, "Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21. You apparently can't hear it, but you will hear it in the judgment.
 

God's Truth

New member
You had to go get Old Testament scripture that was written under the law to make your point? That alone should tell you that you are in error.

How do you think it is error to get Old Testament scripture for something you said about the Old Testament?

Not only that, Paul says ALL scripture is useful for training and teaching.

God's people are no longer under the law, nor are they subject to it. You remind me of the stupid Galatians that wanted to be under the law. Paul said to them, "Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21. You apparently can't hear it, but you will hear it in the judgment.

What is wrong with you? Show me where I said to do the old law purification works that the Galatians were talked into? Show it now and maybe you will see the truth.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
How do you think it is error to get Old Testament scripture for something you said about the Old Testament?

Not only that, Paul says ALL scripture is useful for training and teaching.



What is wrong with you? Show me where I said to do the old law purification works that the Galatians were talked into? Show it now and maybe you will see the truth.


There is only one law. It is God's law. It is one unit, not two units.

The Holy Spirit is the Christians teacher, not the law, John 15:26.

You are like an old Pharisee trying to be justified by the law. Paul said, "By the deeds of the law NO FLESH SHALL BE JUSTIFIED" Romans 3:20.

Paul also said, "By the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

Instead of trying to keep the law you should be running under the umbrella of grace.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
The Holy Spirit is the Christians teacher, not the law, John 15:26.[/QUOTE]



Not being "under" the law, and its jurisdiction/judgment, and the Holy Spirit being our guide, "teacher," to understand the law, does not mean that the Holy Spirit "replaces" the law, demon, and that the law no longer exists, has been destroyed, has been made void, has been abolished, as you satanically assert, devil child. That is a false dichotomy, from hell, and means that the standard of right/wrong, is subjective, and everyone is saved, according to you, you demonic moron, obsessed one, wolf, in sheep's clothing.

Pate: The Holy Spirit teaches us to understand, an objective law, that does not exist.


Moron.

It's also called subjectivity.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the OBEDIENCE OF ONE shall many be made righteousness" Romans 5:19.

This obedience.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
 
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