beloved57
Well-known member
You don't believe the Gospel!
The Unjust, Unmerciful, Unrighteous God of Calvinism
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
You don't believe the Gospel!
How so?
popsthebuilder
New member
Have you read the Qur'an. You realise that it's exceeding similar to the Torah? Just because some followers of religions are quite astray doesn't mean it is because of their core scriptures. Usually it is due to manipulated interpretation of said scriptures taken out of context.
Brother Ducky
New member
While not a field of great study, I have never thought of Original Sin as a particularly Reformed doctrine. I was saved in an Assemblies of God church and was never led to believe that people were anything but sinners by nature. I checked a couple of things and:
4. The Fall of Man
Man was created good and upright; for God said, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness." However, man by voluntary transgression fell and thereby incurred not only physical death but also spiritual death, which is separation from God.
• Genesis 1:26,27 [KJV/NIV]
• Genesis 2:17 [KJV/NIV]
• Genesis 3:6 [KJV/NIV]
• Romans 5:12-19 [KJV/NIV]
Pasted from <http://www.ag.org/top/beliefs/statement_of_fundamental_truths/sft_full.cfm#4>
Article VII — Of Original or Birth Sin
Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk), but it is the corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam, whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and of his own nature inclined to evil, and that continually.
Pasted from <http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-articles-of-religion-of-the-methodist-church>
Personally, I would not consider either the A/G or Methodists to be bastions of Reformed thought.
Thankfully the God of Calvinism does NOT exist. He only exist in the minds of those who believe him to be an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous, tyrant.
beloved57
Well-known member
If you dont believe the Truths of Tulip, you dont believe in the True God, but an idol !
Thank God there aren't many on TOL, like you.
Another other speaks and yet, says nothing.
False Prophet
New member
They are reconciled to God, even sinners and evil doers, Colossians 1:21, are reconciled to God.
Behold I am coming quickly to render to everyone according to what they have done. Jesus knocks at the door of his church trying to get in. They don't let him in, because they reject the knowledge of the truth so as to be saved; God sends over them a deluding influence so that they will believe a lie. The natural man does not submit himself to the Spirit of God.
8 People did not think it was important to have a true knowledge of God. So God left them and allowed them to have their own worthless thinking and to do things they should not do. 29 They are filled with every kind of sin, evil, selfishness, and hatred. They are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, lying, and thinking the worst about each other. They gossip 30 and say evil things about each other. They hate God. They are rude and conceited and brag about themselves. They invent ways of doing evil. They do not obey their parents. 31 They are foolish, they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or mercy to others. 32 They know God’s law says that those who live like this should die. But they themselves not only continue to do these evil things, they applaud others who do them. Ro 1:28
Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its desires. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are manifest, he that does not do what is righteous is not of God. Although they know that the law of God condemns those who do such things, they not only do these things; they approve of those who do.
12 So, do not let sin control your life here on earth so that you do what your sinful self wants to do. Ro 6 NCV
God writes his law on our hearts which is the new covenant.
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Ro 8 NASB
When we are led by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its desires. Those who suffer in the flesh have ceased from sin. He who says I know him, but does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Ro 8 NASB
Are we to go on sinning so that grace may abound? May that never be! Jesus is coming back for a church without spot, blemish, or wrinkle. Pursue peace with all men, and holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Like the holy one, we are to be holy, in all, all, all of our conduct.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; Ro 8
Does your Bible say that if you live according to the flesh that you will die? If you don't like it, just get a pair of scissors and cut that out of your Bible.
if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Ro 8
We put to death the deeds of the flesh by walking after the Spirit. If one is not led by the Spirit of Christ, then he is none of his. By their fruits you shall know them. A good tree does not bear bad fruit. It does not say that a good tree bears mixed fruit. Those that do not bear good fruit shall be cut down and cast into the fire.
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! Ro 6
Behold I am coming quickly to render to everyone according to what they have done. Jesus knocks at the door of his church trying to get in. They don't let him in, because they reject the knowledge of the truth so as to be saved; God sends over them a deluding influence so that they will believe a lie. The natural man does not submit himself to the Spirit of God.
8 People did not think it was important to have a true knowledge of God. So God left them and allowed them to have their own worthless thinking and to do things they should not do. 29 They are filled with every kind of sin, evil, selfishness, and hatred. They are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, lying, and thinking the worst about each other. They gossip 30 and say evil things about each other. They hate God. They are rude and conceited and brag about themselves. They invent ways of doing evil. They do not obey their parents. 31 They are foolish, they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or mercy to others. 32 They know God’s law says that those who live like this should die. But they themselves not only continue to do these evil things, they applaud others who do them. Ro 1:28
Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its desires. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are manifest, he that does not do what is righteous is not of God. Although they know that the law of God condemns those who do such things, they not only do these things; they approve of those who do.
12 So, do not let sin control your life here on earth so that you do what your sinful self wants to do. Ro 6 NCV
God writes his law on our hearts which is the new covenant.
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Ro 8 NASB
When we are led by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its desires. Those who suffer in the flesh have ceased from sin. He who says I know him, but does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Ro 8 NASB
Are we to go on sinning so that grace may abound? May that never be! Jesus is coming back for a church without spot, blemish, or wrinkle. Pursue peace with all men, and holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Like the holy one, we are to be holy, in all, all, all of our conduct.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; Ro 8
Does your Bible say that if you live according to the flesh that you will die? If you don't like it, just get a pair of scissors and cut that out of your Bible.
if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Ro 8
We put to death the deeds of the flesh by walking after the Spirit. If one is not led by the Spirit of Christ, then he is none of his. By their fruits you shall know them. A good tree does not bear bad fruit. It does not say that a good tree bears mixed fruit. Those that do not bear good fruit shall be cut down and cast into the fire.
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! Ro 6
Have you ever seen anyone so determined to go to hell?
All very true.
It's an Augustinian doctrine, same as the rest of the Calvinist distinctives.
Are you suggesting that, because it isn't a uniquely Calvinist doctrine, you reject the validity of the argument?
It makes no difference what you call it. Forget "Original Sin" and substitute "Predestination". The logic still holds. Calvinism teaches that God punishes people for actions that they did not choose to do and holds them as guilty and worthy of punishment by virtue of the way God made them. Calvinism is worse even than the doctrine of original sin because they don't even believe Adam could have done differently than he did. So it makes no difference, not that there is a difference. Calvinists universally believe in original sin. They believe it is a "secondary cause" of total depravity. So I say it again...
A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man’s sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man’s nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Excellent post. I hope he reads it.
Brother Ducky
New member
Actually, I was not terribly concerned with the argument at all. The idea behind the thread concerns the problems of "the God of Calvinism." Just wondered if the idea of Original Sin was a Reformed concept.
The Bible teaches that original sin was brought about by Adam and Eve, Romans 5:12. John Calvin didn't have anything to do with it.
No it doesn't.
I'm not denying the existence of the flesh but that isn't what "Original Sin" is about. The doctrine of Original Sin teaches that God holds the whole human race as guilty of sin because of the sin of their father, Adam. It's a blasphemous doctrine that cannot survive even one single reading of Ezekiel 18.
No one - ever - has been or ever will be held morally responsible (i.e. punished for) any sin other than that which they themselves chose to commit.
And who is the Father of the human race?
Brother Ducky
New member
Are you proposing that it is a real possibility for someone to not sin and on that basis go to heaven? Know anyone who has so done? Or of anyone who has been damned on the basis of anything but their own sin?
Brother Ducky
New member
I have a feeling that you believe that all Calvinists should be hyper-Calvinists. Has any been damned for sin that is not their own? If God chooses to make it possible for some to believe, and only some, is he unjust?
Brother Ducky
New member
Exactly how is the "God of Calvinism" unmerciful?