The UN demands the US pay Reparations

[Traditio]

I did nothing of the kind. You were, do, and it seems continue to read things into my words that I haven't said. You did it continuously throughout our discussion on that thread and completely dismissed anything I had to say. I don't want a personal argument with you and would much rather get back to the point of this thread. If you have valid counter arguments then feel free to share them and rebut what I have to say. If you're just going to keep launching personal ad hominem attacks in my direction then would you kindly shut up?

Many thanks

Obfuscation and redirection: they're like bread and water to liberals.

 

[ok doser]

You expended a lot of words in that thread about your victim status at university ...

:dizzy:

a little early to be this hammered, isn't it?


go sleep it off anna

 

[rexlunae]

The point is that if we start making reparations to people not because of what they have suffered, but because of what their ancestors over 100 years ago suffered, where do we draw the line?

If black people in America today had achieved the kind of equality that other groups that have come here have, I would say that the case for reparations would be significantly weaker. But the fact is that there's good evidence to indicate that the slavery of two centuries ago still impacts the experiences of people alive today.

You say slavery isn't ancient history, but what is ancient history for you? Wherever you draw the line between "ancient history" and "not ancient history" is arbitrary.

You're the one drawing the line, you tell me. If slavery happened last year, would you still say it's too late to draw reparations from it?

So why don't we go back into the past and start making reparations for every atrocity every country has ever been involved in? That would at least be consistent.

Ok, lets try that.

Personally I prefer not to feel victimised for suffering others in the past have gone through, nor to feel guilt for the perpetration of suffering my ancestors may have caused. I'm neither the victim nor the perpetrator of past atrocities.

What do you have to feel victimized about?

 

[Traditio]

If black people in America today had achieved the kind of equality that other groups that have come here have, I would say that the case for reparations would be significantly weaker. But the fact is that there's good evidence to indicate that the slavery of two centuries ago still impacts the experiences of people alive today.

How would you concretely prove that in the case of any individual black person?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Do you have a compelling argument that slavery is a crime against humanity?

Perhaps you and GO simply have a different view of what constitutes a crime against humanity.

The UN does not state that slavery is a crime against humanity.
It states:

_____
For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:[41]
(a) Murder;
(b) Extermination;
(c) Enslavement;
(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
(f) Torture;
(g) Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
(h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;
(i) Enforced disappearance of persons;
(j) The crime of apartheid;
(k) Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health;
_____​

In other words, the UN only considers enslavement (as opposed to slavery) as a crime against humanity "when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack".

The UN has even issued the following statement:

_____
“[We] warn the perpetrators that there is an absolute prohibition against slavery and sexual slavery in international law,” the OHCHR spokesperson warned. “These can, under certain circumstances, constitute crimes against humanity.”
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47733#.VrJ5xrgrKUk
_____​

That means that the UN believes that slavery is not always a crime against humanity, but only in certain circumstances can it be considered a crime against humanity.

Note, at no point did GO assert that slavery should be legal currently.

True, I think the abuses of slavery far exceed any historic benefits that it provided for conquered peoples and debtors.

Though, I would like to point out that pretty much everyone living today admits that slavery is perfectly acceptable in some contexts.

Prisoners, for example, are, for all intents and purposes, slaves of the State as punishment for their crimes.

I am opposed to the enslavement of offenders in prison as a punishment for crimes.

 

[ok doser]

If black people in America today had achieved the kind of equality that other groups that have come here have....

many of them have, rex - those who value Christian morality, and hard work and thrift, and education, and strong families, and the law...


iow, those who reject black urban culture

 

[rexlunae]

If you flip me off, you expect me to treat you nicely?

I think if you have a tenth the maturity you think you're demanding from other people, you wouldn't take personally something that is almost certainly not actually about you. It takes quite an ego to suppose that the names that black people give their children are about you.

I didn't say that. That said, it is telling that black people flock to their own sectarian courses of study.

Maybe because it holds some special resonance for them, for obvious reasons? White people learn all about white-people-history, which tends to be codified into educational standards. Why shouldn't black people want to learn about their own history?

Well refusing to hire someone named "Shaquan" isn't discrimination on the basis of race. It's "discrimination" on the basis of name, probable cultural upbringing, etc. Were he named "Jonathan," the employer wouldn't have the slightest clue about his race.

Name being used as a proxy for race. Why is the onus on black people to conform to your expectations?

You would think that. But whenever Winter comes around, I keep hearing the word "Kwaanzaa." I wonder what's up with that.

I think you can figure it out, if you try.

"Hey, boss man, I know I am a goth and I dress in a positively ridiculous manner. I further am aware that I have all sorts of bizarre piercings and am covered in tattoos...but you should hire me anyway!"

Clothing choices are not always protected by law, although there are cases where they are. I don't see any reason that they should be, in general.

The actual one. You know, the one where "r" isn't pronounced like the word "aura." Do try and keep up.

Yeah, we'll just get the government to impose an official accent. That'll be great.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If black people in America today had achieved the kind of equality that other groups that have come here have, I would say that the case for reparations would be significantly weaker.

The majority of black people in America have achieved that kind of equality.
The ones that haven't are the ones that are deliberately separating and segregating themselves from American culture.

Their lack of equality is not due to the color of their skin, it is due to the "black culture" that they exhibit and demand other dark skinned Americans to honor.

Maybe we can get the "ghetto blacks" to pay reparations for the damage they have done to black equality?

 

[rexlunae]

How would you concretely prove that in the case of any individual black person?

I'm not sure you could.

 

[Traditio]

I'm not sure you could.

Then you have no case. It's that simple. :idunno:

 

[rexlunae]

The majority of black people in America have achieved that kind of equality.

There are vast disparities in employment, in educational opportunities, in criminal justice, even for relatively successful black people.

 

[ok doser]

There are vast disparities in employment, in educational opportunities, in criminal justice, even for relatively successful black people.

and paying reparations is going to change that because......

 

[genuineoriginal]

There are vast disparities in employment, in educational opportunities, in criminal justice, even for relatively successful black people.

and paying reparations is going to change that because......

It won't change that, it will only make those disparities more permanent and justified.

Liberals think black Americans need handouts because liberals believe very strongly that black Americans are inherently inferior to white Americans.

 

[rexlunae]

Then you have no case. It's that simple. :idunno:

Because the only reparations that you will consider are those that are completely individualized?

Well, some of us may not feel so constrained.

 

[lovemeorhateme]

If black people in America today had achieved the kind of equality that other groups that have come here have, I would say that the case for reparations would be significantly weaker. But the fact is that there's good evidence to indicate that the slavery of two centuries ago still impacts the experiences of people alive today.

I think the different experiences of black Africans and African Americans speaks volumes about what the real problem is. It's certainly not the slavery of the past. Here's an interesting article about the subject:

http://www.theglobalist.com/african-americans-african-immigrants-differ/

From the article:

A fundamental difference between African Americans and African immigrants is the way they react to racism and discrimination.

African Americans usually see racism as the main cause of poverty among their people. They are also quick to point out instances of perceived racism, even in circumstances where it is ambiguous, unclear or more complex than simple racial bigotry or discrimination.

A classic example is the currently large African-American population in prison. Most African-Americans feel that the only reason there are so many African Americans incarcerated is their race. They blame police discrimination and lawmakers who make laws weighted to punish blacks.

For Africans, after suffering many years in civil wars, military coups and other problems, they are happy to be in a country that offers them freedom. They are ready to integrate into the American culture without getting involved in the lingering racial conflicts. They do not typically get involved in the ongoing civil rights struggle – and that has angered many African-Americans.

Perhaps the greatest difference I have seen between African immigrants and African-Americans is how they react to adversity.

Most African immigrants to the United States came here for economic advancement. They do not have any political agenda. They are willing to take any job and do not blame the “system” when they fail in their endeavors.

Most African immigrants to the United States often live in mixed neighborhoods instead of black neighborhoods and they easily integrate. African immigrants know who they are. They are not easily offended when someone tries to put them down. They know where they come from and why they are here.

For African-Americans, there is often a tendency to blame slavery for most of the problems they face today. For instance, when African American students fail in school, some educators blame slavery and do not look for other factors.

However, the time has come for African Americans to realize that while racism still persists, the best thing they can do for their children is to teach them to take full responsibility for their actions. Fathers need to take care of their children and young women need to stay in school instead of having children.

You're the one drawing the line, you tell me. If slavery happened last year, would you still say it's too late to draw reparations from it?

I think it's fair to draw a line and say if it didn't happen to me then I shouldn't get reparations for what happened to someone else.

Ok, lets try that.

At least you're being consistent here.

What do you have to feel victimized about?

Nothing. Though using the logic of some people I guess I should feel victimised by what happened to my Polish grandfather at the hands of the Nazis?

 

[ok doser]

Because the only reparations that you will consider are those that are completely individualized?

Well, some of us may not feel so constrained.

what did you have in mind?

flying over harlem and watts and tossing bills out the cargo door?

 

[Traditio]

Because the only reparations that you will consider are those that are completely individualized?

Well, some of us may not feel so constrained.

I'm thinking of reparations in terms of "damages" sought in a civil suit. In order to win damages, you have to establish 1. a causal connection and 2. the extent of the damages.

If you can't point to a particular black person and say how or to what extent he's specifically been damaged by slavery, then how strong is your case?

You'll point to vague general inequalities, to historical mistreatment of black people, etc.

Nonetheless, that doesn't establish:

1. A causal connection

or

2. Actual damages

Is this particular black person in prison because of slavery? No. He's in prison because he possessed crack. Why? Because he was addicted to the substance. Could he have chosen not to smoke crack? Yes. Then he's not in prison because of slavery. Slavery does not have a causal relationship to his imprisonment.

 

[rexlunae]

I'm thinking of reparations in terms of "damages" sought in a civil suit. In order to win damages, you have to establish 1. a causal connection and 2. the extent of the damages.

If you can't point to a particular black person and say how or to what extent he's specifically been damaged by slavery, then how strong is your case?

You'll point to vague general inequalities, to historical mistreatment of black people, etc.

Nonetheless, that doesn't establish:

1. A causal connection

or

2. Actual damages

Is this particular black person in prison because of slavery? No. He's in prison because he possessed crack. Why? Because he was addicted to the substance. Could he have chosen not to smoke crack? Yes. Then he's not in prison because of slavery. Slavery does not have a causal relationship to his imprisonment.

I'm familiar with the difficulties. That's why I think it needs to be studied. That's also why probably the most reasonable corrective will be some sort of federal program looking at systemic disadvantages.

 

[annabenedetti]

You want to talk about emotive displays? Seriously? lain:

When he does it he calls them "rhetorical flourishes."

 

[annabenedetti]

I did nothing of the kind. You were, do, and it seems continue to read things into my words that I haven't said. You did it continuously throughout our discussion on that thread and completely dismissed anything I had to say. I don't want a personal argument with you and would much rather get back to the point of this thread. If you have valid counter arguments then feel free to share them and rebut what I have to say. If you're just going to keep launching personal ad hominem attacks in my direction then would you kindly shut up?

Many thanks

You made yourself out to be a victim while pretending you were simply making a public services announcement to the choir, and then proceed over here to pontificate in this thread as to whether American Blacks should have any standing for reparation. Your run-in with a feminist on campus is nothing compared to what African-Americans and their ancestors went through. Kindly grow up.

Many thanks