the two witnesses

chrysostom

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northwye

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There is usually a clue in end time prophecy that is written in the language of metaphor showing that a particular text is metaphoric, which is almost always true in the Book of Revelation.

Saying the Two Witnesses are Moses and Elijah, as individuals, or two groups of people, like the Church and Israel, etc is not metaphoric; it is still literal.

Here is a verse in Revelation 11 that is a clue: "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." Revelation 11: 7-8

The beast that comes out of the bottomless pit is in Revelation 9: 1-2, 11, the angel of the bottomless pit, Abaddon or Apollyon. This angel is a fallen angel, a spirit being, who inspires the human false prophets. But as a spirit being he does not literally run around killing people. This is the clue that Revelation 11 is written in metaphoric language, and is not to be taken as literal.

And the literal dead bodies of the Two Witnesses do not lie in the literal streets of Jerusalem, which here is called Sodom and Egypt. Sodom and Egypt refers to the collective which claims they are Christians but are in false doctrines. The Two Witnesses are not two literal guys or two groups of people, and they are "killed" spiritually by the false prophets - not mentioned in this chapter, but are found elsewhere in scripture. The second beast of Revelation 13 represents the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3.
 

chrysostom

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I do like the idea of the olive trees in the earth or state provide the oil for the lampstand which provides the light as the church should do
and
the two best examples of the church and state working together
are
the byzantine empire
and
the holy roman empire
 

genuineoriginal

New member

Deuteronomy 19:15
15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.​


The two witnesses are sent to see and testify about someone's sin.
 

chrysostom

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Deuteronomy 19:15
15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.​


The two witnesses are sent to see and testify about someone's sin.

that doesn't explain the two olive trees like zechariah 4 does
 

northwye

New member
"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." Revelation 11: 4

This is a reference to Zechariah 4: 2-3

"And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3. And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof." Zechariah 4: 2-3

Ezra 3: 3 and 3: 8 explain that Jeshua and Zerubbabel were important in the rebuilding of the Wall and Temple at Jerusalem.
"Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God." Ezra 3: 3

"Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD." Ezra 3: 8

The first part of Revelation 11 is a kind of very short history of the Body of Christ. Jeshua and Zerubbabel, the two leaders in the rebuilding of Jerusalem, represent the restoration of Israel and its transformation in Christ - who can be seen metaphorically as olive trees, and the oil of grace as the truth.

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified............And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

Even John Gill (1697-1771) in his commentary on Revelation 11 did not believe the Two Witnesses were literally two men. He says "And I will give power unto my two witnesses,.... By whom are meant, not Enoch and Elias, as some of the ancient fathers thought...........but these witnesses intend the ministers of the Gospel and churches of Christ, who have bore testimony for Christ, and against antichrist, ever since he appeared in the world; "

I would have to add that the Two Witnesses not only represent the ministers of the Gospel but also all the elect of Christ who are viewed in this chapter.

Nor did John Gill, writing before Christian Zionism began in the 19th century, think that the beast who comes up out of the bottomless pit literally kills the Two Witnesses. He says "And kill them; not corporeally, but civilly; for as their dead bodies lying three days and a half, that is, three years and a half, unburied, and their resurrection from the dead, and ascension to heaven, cannot be understood literally............they will be silenced; they will be banished, or removed into corners."

The Two Witnesses, representing, as Gill says, many ministers of the Gospel of Christ, are "killed" by the beast who comes up out of the bottomless pit. Gill says this beast is the "Romish antichrist," but he is the same entity seen in Revelation 9: 1-2, 11, the angel of the bottomless pit, a fallen angel or demon, called Abaddon and Apollyon. Since fallen angels do not run around literally killing people, this is a clue that the killing is metaphor. The beast or angel of the bottomless pit inspires the huge number of false prophets seen in Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3 to "kill" the spiritual life in the Two Witnesses.

The Two Witnesses, after they are spiritually "killed" by the false prophets inspired by the beast of the bottomless pit are given spiritual life by the Spirit of God in Revelation 11: 11.
 

Eleutherius

New member
RE: the two witnesses

Revelation must be interpreted from the four principles set out in verse one of chapter one. These are: 1) Chapter one opens with the title of the transcript: A Revelation of Jesus Christ;
2) The revealed author is God -- this revelation is of divine origin -- which is noted by the clause: “which God gave unto Him”.
3) The object of the transcript was to reveal historical events which were “ready” to occur – with speed – in terms of the operation of the plan and purposes of God concerning Christ and His church of the First Century A.D. (cf Luke 21:22);
4) they were signified or expressed with symbols [the Greek word is “ἐσήμανεν”, esemanen, signified (third person, singular, aorist, indicative, active) and denoting factual, past completed action], i.e., the transcript is a completed allegory.

Consider, the book is "signified or expressed with symbolic language: it is not literal.

The Old Testament is the lexicon for symbolic interpretation.


The Two Witnesses: Rev. 11...

John was given a reed: a measuring device of a predetermined length. He was commanded to measure the temple, the altar, and those who worshipped in it (in judgment). Judgment had come in terms of the Old Order. The outer court had been exempt from the order to “measure”. The outer court had been reserved for those who were excluded from temple worship: the Gentiles. Moreover, they would trample the holy city for forty-two months.
Power had been given to the two (signifying agreement) witnesses (the faithful from under both covenants) of Christ (vs. 3). Their ministry was prophetic, i.e., “The testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10).” They prophesied 1260 days or – forty-two months. They wore sackcloth, because they grieved for the souls of them who were apostate or spiritually lost.

They were also known as “the two olive trees (signifying the Holy Spirit) and the two lamp stands (signifying the church) which stood before the God of the earth (vs. 4).” They were two and two: four represents their function in the – earth. The result was healing and salvation. The words “healing” and “salvation”, are the same word form, Lt., salve & salvus, respectively; and, the Greek equivalent is “σώζω”, sozo (root word). Salvation is in respect to the whole person: physical and spiritual.

Near to the time of the Day of the Lord, the church proper experienced increased persecution: “when they shall have completed their testimony, the beast who comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them:” et cetera. Remember, these events are still under the sixth trumpet; and, Satan’s little season is still in force. He tormented those who were deceived by him, and he assaulted those who were of the elect of Jesus Christ. The assault upon the church culminated at the center of the world’s predominant religious order: the natural Jerusalem, where our Lord also died (vs. 8). This was the last prophecy to be fulfilled. As a result of the silencing of the church, which was for a short time [3.5 days (, perhaps, a day for a year/an incomplete operation)], the Land (Jerusalem) rejoiced, because they thought that they were free from the Gospel message which commands men everywhere to repent from their sins and turn to the living God (Acts 17:30). Following, the resurrection of the dead occurred to the demise of Isra’el, and the church was caught up into heaven (preserved). A great earthquake occurred (vs. 13): destruction once again came to Jerusalem with many people [7000 (7 x 103: perfect and complete holocaust) names of men] dying there; those who survived gave untimely glory to God.
 

chrysostom

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They were also known as “the two olive trees (signifying the Holy Spirit) and the two lamp stands (signifying the church)

you are right about the lamp signifying the church
but
wrong about the two olive trees

they represent the state in the form of zerubbabel according to zechariah 4
 

Eleutherius

New member
Chrysostom, RE: Zechariah 4:5 & 6,

"Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but BY MY SPIRIT, saith the Lord of hosts."

Is not the message concerning the Spirit of the Lord (the Agent)?
 

False Prophet

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Romans 11 describes the two olive branches as the Jewish witness and the Gentile witness.
A common identification of the two witnesses are Elijah and Enoch.
 

chrysostom

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Chrysostom, RE: Zechariah 4:5 & 6,

"Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but BY MY SPIRIT, saith the Lord of hosts."

Is not the message concerning the Spirit of the Lord (the Agent)?

you can credit the Holy Spirit for just about everything
but
normally She has to work with real people
and
it may be useful to identify them
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Give evidence of the fact, please.

There is a writeup of why some people consider the Holy Spirit to be a female here
_________
In Hebrew the word for Spirit (רוה) (ruach) is feminine, (as is the word "shekhinah", which is used in the Hebrew Bible to indicate the presence of God,
. . .
In the Syriac language too, the grammatically feminine word ruah means "spirit", and writers in that language, both orthodox and Gnostic, used maternal images when speaking of the Holy Spirit.
. . .
While scholars generally agree that grammatical gender is not necessarily correlative to personal gender, Eastern Orthodox theologian Susan Ashbrook Harvey considers the grammatical gender to have been significant for early Syriac Christianity: "It seems clear that for the Syrians, the cue from grammar—ruah as a feminine noun—was not entirely gratuitous. There was real meaning in calling the Spirit 'She'."
_________​
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
There is a writeup of why some people consider the Holy Spirit to be a female here
_________
In Hebrew the word for Spirit (רוה) (ruach) is feminine, (as is the word "shekhinah", which is used in the Hebrew Bible to indicate the presence of God,
. . .
In the Syriac language too, the grammatically feminine word ruah means "spirit", and writers in that language, both orthodox and Gnostic, used maternal images when speaking of the Holy Spirit.
. . .
While scholars generally agree that grammatical gender is not necessarily correlative to personal gender, Eastern Orthodox theologian Susan Ashbrook Harvey considers the grammatical gender to have been significant for early Syriac Christianity: "It seems clear that for the Syrians, the cue from grammar—ruah as a feminine noun—was not entirely gratuitous. There was real meaning in calling the Spirit 'She'."
_________​

thank you, thank you very much

I just love it when others do the work for me
 
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