The Truth About Pentecostalism and Subjective Religions

[csuguy]

There are only two places that you can be spiritually.

1. You can be "In Christ".

2. You can be in your flesh.

To be spiritually in your flesh means that you are under condemnation, Romans 8:1.

If God does not see you "In Christ" then he will see you in the flesh.

So, where are you?

It's not quite so cut and dry - Paul in the previous chapter laments the conflict between the two natures present in him:

Romans 7:21-25 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

Additionally, we can see here that Paul contradicts your "gospel." Paul himself, with his mind, seeks to serve the law of God. He hasn't given up on doing what is right, even as the law of sin in his flesh tempts him towards evil.

 

[Robert Pate]

It's not quite so cut and dry - Paul in the previous chapter laments the conflict between the two natures present in him:

Romans 7:21-25 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

Additionally, we can see here that Paul contradicts your "gospel." Paul himself, with his mind, seeks to serve the law of God. He hasn't given up on doing what is right, even as the law of sin in his flesh tempts him towards evil.

Romans 7 has nothing to do with Paul's salvation.

Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin. Sin does not separate a Christian from God. God sees all that are his as perfect and complete "In Christ".

 

[jamie]

Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin.

Nope. Romans 7 & 8 are allegorical.

Paul said, "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law and was zealous toward God as you all are today." (Acts 22:3)

...concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Philippians 3:6)​

 

[Robert Pate]

Nope. Romans 7 & 8 are allegorical.

Paul said, "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law and was zealous toward God as you all are today." (Acts 22:3)

...concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Philippians 3:6)​

Paul was indeed a self righteous Pharisee before he became a Christian.

But after he became a Christian the Holy Spirit convicted him of his sins and he referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Anyone interested in seeing what the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has been up to in the last two decades might want to go on You-Tube and see all of the odd/strange things they've been up to? Check out the Prosperity message and the signs and wonders that they portray as coming from God. The "things" you'll see are NOT from God. These people want experiences over the Gospel. They are not saved. Neither are the Prosperity preachers today. Examples: Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn, Paula White, Joel Osteen, Todd Bentley, Ron Parsley, and the list goes on and on. All non-Christian parasites and liars.

 

[jamie]

Paul was indeed a self righteous Pharisee before he became a Christian.

But after he became a Christian the Holy Spirit convicted him of his sins and he referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

After Paul was converted he was still a Pharisee, but with God's righteousness and no longer a sinner. Paul became an ex-sinner.

 

[csuguy]

Romans 7 has nothing to do with Paul's salvation.

Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin. Sin does not separate a Christian from God. God sees all that are his as perfect and complete "In Christ".

That passage demonstrates that even someone who is in Christ (unless you deny that Paul was in Christ?) still struggles with sin. It's not like one becomes a Christian and all of our temptations that lead us into sin simply disappear - somethings will always be there to tempt us. Even Christ was tempted by Satan.

But despite the presence of temptation and sin in the law of the flesh, yet God's law reigned in his heart and mind - his true desire. And in this we find the truth of the state of true Christians: they have a heart and mind that desires to do God's will, but still must struggle with sin. It is not a black and white scenario of either being a Christian or a sinner, it is a constant battle to decide who you are going to be. This is why there are warnings saying that it is better to lose a hand or an eye than for the whole body to be destroyed. This is why it warns against falling away. This is why when asked how to pray, Jesus instructed us to repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness.

Being a Christian does not mean passively subscribing to doctrines X, Y, and Z. Being a Christian is about how you live your life, it's about following Christ's teachings and doing God's will, it's about being there for others and helping them in their time of need. Beliefs are important because they guide our actions. When your beliefs, your faith, are divorced from action - it means nothing, they are dead.

And this very much has to do with salvation - for Christ teaches that only those who do the will of the Father will be saved. Paul teaches that eternal life is a reward for good works. Christ, in the parable of the sheeps and goats, made it clear that what separates the saved from the damned is how they lived in this life, how they treated others in their time of need. And when someone repents, you are to forgive them, lest you not be forgiven.

And yes - sin does separate one from God. That's kind of the whole reason we need Christ to reconcile us to God to begin with.

 

[Robert Pate]

That passage demonstrates that even someone who is in Christ (unless you deny that Paul was in Christ?) still struggles with sin. It's not like one becomes a Christian and all of our temptations that lead us into sin simply disappear - somethings will always be there to tempt us. Even Christ was tempted by Satan.

But despite the presence of temptation and sin in the law of the flesh, yet God's law reigned in his heart and mind - his true desire. And in this we find the truth of the state of true Christians: they have a heart and mind that desires to do God's will, but still must struggle with sin. It is not a black and white scenario of either being a Christian or a sinner, it is a constant battle to decide who you are going to be. This is why there are warnings saying that it is better to lose a hand or an eye than for the whole body to be destroyed. This is why it warns against falling away. This is why when asked how to pray, Jesus instructed us to repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness.

Being a Christian does not mean passively subscribing to doctrines X, Y, and Z. Being a Christian is about how you live your life, it's about following Christ's teachings and doing God's will, it's about being there for others and helping them in their time of need. Beliefs are important because they guide our actions. When your beliefs, your faith, are divorced from action - it means nothing, they are dead.

And this very much has to do with salvation - for Christ teaches that only those who do the will of the Father will be saved. Paul teaches that eternal life is a reward for good works. Christ, in the parable of the sheeps and goats, made it clear that what separates the saved from the damned is how they lived in this life, how they treated others in their time of need. And when someone repents, you are to forgive them, lest you not be forgiven.

And yes - sin does separate one from God. That's kind of the whole reason we need Christ to reconcile us to God to begin with.

I agree with much of what you have said.

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him receive the Holy Spirit. They are sealed by the Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing. After they are sealed with the Holy Spirit God spiritually places them "In Christ" Ephesians 2:6. There is no removing them from Christ. All that have received the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" will persevere until the end.

If you fail to persevere chances are you never did believe in the first place and you were a counterfeit.

 

[csuguy]

I agree with much of what you have said.

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him receive the Holy Spirit. They are sealed by the Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing. After they are sealed with the Holy Spirit God spiritually places them "In Christ" Ephesians 2:6. There is no removing them from Christ. All that have received the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" will persevere until the end.

If you fail to persevere chances are you never did believe in the first place and you were a counterfeit.

False - there are numerous warnings in the scriptures about falling away, and numerous times we are told to persevere. Why all the warnings if there is no danger of falling away? Also consider the parable of the sower:

Matthew 13:18-23 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the [j]word, immediately he [k]falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the [l]world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

We see here that the Word is sown in many people's hearts. However, depending upon the individual, the Word that was sown in their heart maybe snatched away, or else made unfruitful. Only some who receive the Word understand it and act on it so as to bring forth fruit. Yet all these types of people legitimately received the Word, having it sown in their heart.

 

[Robert Pate]

False - there are numerous warnings in the scriptures about falling away, and numerous times we are told to persevere. Why all the warnings if there is no danger of falling away? Also consider the parable of the sower:



We see here that the Word is sown in many people's hearts. However, depending upon the individual, the Word that was sown in their heart maybe snatched away, or else made unfruitful. Only some who receive the Word understand it and act on it so as to bring forth fruit. Yet all these types of people legitimately received the Word, having it sown in their heart.

The seed is sown, but only a few receive it.

Once you come to Christ to be saved by him and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that can separate you from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35-39.

 

[csuguy]

The seed is sown, but only a few receive it.

That's not what the parable says. Even of those who have it taken away easily, it says that they received the Word with joy! Even that it was sown in their hearts.

Once you come to Christ to be saved by him and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that can separate you from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35-39.

While we are sealed with the Holy Spirit - the scriptures make no assertion that there is no-way no-how that we can ever fall away. To the contrary, the scriptures constantly call for our perseverance and good works so that we will be saved. Salvation requires that one give their lives to doing God's will. And it warns that those who call on the Lord, but do not do these things - they will not be saved. They are the goats.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.​

Matthew 24:12-13 Because lawlessness is increased, [f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.​

Mark 13:13 You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.​

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?​

Or see here, where it explicitly talks about preventing one's fellow brethren from falling away:

James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.​

This verse completely contradicts the entire concept of OSAS - under it, no brethren should be able to stray from the truth such that he needs to be corrected lest his soul be in danger of death, but there it is!

 

[jamie]

I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)​

 

[patrick jane]

I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)​

:vomit:

 

[Robert Pate]

That's not what the parable says. Even of those who have it taken away easily, it says that they received the Word with joy! Even that it was sown in their hearts.



While we are sealed with the Holy Spirit - the scriptures make no assertion that there is no-way no-how that we can ever fall away. To the contrary, the scriptures constantly call for our perseverance and good works so that we will be saved. Salvation requires that one give their lives to doing God's will. And it warns that those who call on the Lord, but do not do these things - they will not be saved. They are the goats.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.​

Matthew 24:12-13 Because lawlessness is increased, [f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.​

Mark 13:13 You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.​

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?​

Or see here, where it explicitly talks about preventing one's fellow brethren from falling away:

James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.​

This verse completely contradicts the entire concept of OSAS - under it, no brethren should be able to stray from the truth such that he needs to be corrected lest his soul be in danger of death, but there it is!

There is a problem with James. He was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law.

If you fall away after you confessed Christ as your savior. You never did really believe. You were a counterfeit.

 

[jamie]

There is a problem with James. He was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law.

James said just the opposite, why are you maligning him? (Acts 15:19)

 

[Robert Pate]

James said just the opposite, why are you maligning him? (Acts 15:19)

James is one of the first books of the New Testament. Many, including James could not believe that the law had been abolished.

James sent men to spy on Peter to see if he was eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-14.

James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-21.

Read it for yourself. I am sure that at a later date James came into a full knowledge of the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law.

 

[csuguy]

There is a problem with James. He was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law.

If you fall away after you confessed Christ as your savior. You never did really believe. You were a counterfeit.

All of the biblical authors support the law, including Paul. As we saw in Romans 7 - in his inner self, in his mind, it is his desire to follow God's Law. In fact, God's Law is a fundamental part of being a Christian under the New Covenant. Here is a prophecy concerning the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

This is explicitly quoted in NT scriptures like Hebrews 8:10; 10:16.

Paul uses similar terminology throughout his works like in Romans 2:14-16

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

Recall, also, that to love the Lord is to keep his commandments (1 John 5:3). So you cannot legitimately separate Christianity and being a Christian from God's Law. A true Christian will have God's Law written on their heart - which means that that is how they will choose to act, it's what guides them and sets their values.

 

[Robert Pate]

All of the biblical authors support the law, including Paul. As we saw in Romans 7 - in his inner self, in his mind, it is his desire to follow God's Law. In fact, God's Law is a fundamental part of being a Christian under the New Covenant. Here is a prophecy concerning the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

This is explicitly quoted in NT scriptures like Hebrews 8:10; 10:16.

Paul uses similar terminology throughout his works like in Romans 2:14-16

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

Recall, also, that to love the Lord is to keep his commandments (1 John 5:3). So you cannot legitimately separate Christianity and being a Christian from God's Law. A true Christian will have God's Law written on their heart - which means that that is how they will choose to act, it's what guides them and sets their values.

To be under the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10.

The Law has been abolished for Christians, Colossians 2:14 also Ephesians 2:15.

Paul said that the law made him want to sin, Romans 7:7-12.

The law is for ungodly sinners, 1 Timothy 1:9, 10.

I don't know who you have been listening to. It hasn't been the Bible.

 

[jamie]

James sent men to spy on Peter to see if he was eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-14.

James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-21.

The scripture says men came from James, it does not say James sent them.

 

[meshak]

I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)​

Most of us in the west apply to this category. do you think you are not one of them?