The Trinity

The Trinity

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genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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KingdomRose said:
You never read my post where I asked you to comment on this! I said that if "kind reproduces after its kind," and that proves that Jesus is God because God produced him, then what of the other angels and mankind? God made the angels and humans.....does that mean that they are all "God" also?
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That argument fails because Jesus is the only begotten (created through reproduction) Son of God.

Any being created through production instead of reproduction is not God.
 
jamie

jamie

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KingdomRose said:
God made the angels and humans.....does that mean that they are all "God" also?
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The purpose of human life is to be born of the Spirit. Not so for angels.

For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

And again: "I will be to Him a Father and He shall be to Me a Son”? (Hebrews 1:5 (NKJV)​

So why did Christ create angels?

Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1:14 NKJV)​
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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KingdomRose said:
I brought this up from page 10 because I don't think anyone has commented on it (except LA, who agreed if I remember correctly). Bright Raven had said, "Let's get straight who Jesus is before we go into that," or something to that effect, and I posted who Jesus was, but Bright Raven never commented on my first post. Just avoiding some uncomfortable points?

Anyway, there is my post, and I would appreciate any comments...esp. if they are thoughtful and aimed at really explaining why they disagree---pointing to specific parts of my citations, and not just calling me names and saying "you're wrong."

Now, to expand on that post. I think most of us here believe that God reveals Himself in the pages of the Bible. So wouldn't we take it on ourselves to examine whatever evidence there is in the Scriptures that will help us to figure out who God is? Someone who is really seeking for the truth will carefully sift through all the relevant texts, like the Beroeans (Acts 17:11). They dared to see "if these things were so", that Paul was telling them.

I like what Thomas Jefferson said about the trinity doctrine: "The Trinity is an unintelligible proposition of Platonic mysticisms that three are one and one is three; and yet one is NOT three and three are not one!" (See The Religious Life of Thomas Jefferson, C.B. Sanford, 1987, p.88)

It can be seen, upon scrutiny, that such opinions are quite sensible. Nevertheless, religious leaders insist that you must believe in the trinity to be a Christian! Otherwise, they teach, you must be branded a "cultist." But how can we be expected to agree with something that can neither be explained nor understood??? Answer this: Is it fair to ask Christians to accept the doctrine "on faith"?---A doctrine that is never mentioned by name and never discussed in the pages of the New Testament (or the O.T.)! Isn't it reasonable to expect somewhere in Scripture a precise, clear formulation of the strange proposition that God is "three-in-one"?

Church history shows that the idea of even two equal persons in the "Godhead"---the Father and the Son---didn't receive formal approval of the Church until three hundred years after Jesus walked the earth, at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., and this through political agitation. Why did it take so long for the Church to formally present the doctrine of a "Godhead" of two persons, and later of three? And then only under heavy political pressure??? Following Nicea, hundreds if not thousands of Christians died at the hands of other "Christians" because they believed, still, that God was a single Person!

The trinity doctrine defies both logic and rational explanation, but that doesn't seem to dampen the trinitarian's resolve to protect AT ALL COSTS this complex theological formula. The anger & agitation caused by anyone questioning the trinity doctrine is actually puzzling....does this betray a lack of confidence in this so-called unquestionable "party-line" of all of the ministers in Christendom?

Indeed, the majority view does not make the doctrine true. All of Christendom was once required to reject Galileo & Copernicus and hold the opinion that the earth was the center of the solar system. Didn't the pope apologize for this in the 20th century? I wonder if he'll wind up apologizing for the spurious trinity doctrine.


:maxi: (The Church to Galileo, for centuries.) :think:
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Bright Raven has told you who Jesus is. Jesus is God the Son, the second person of the Trinity (If God had a Son which he did, would he not possess some of the characteristics of his father). 1 John 1:1-2 states;

1 John 1:1-2 English Standard Version (ESV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—

2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—

Jesus was proclaimed to have eternal life by the Apostle. Was He wrong?

Again He says;

John 1:1 English Standard Version (ESV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This verse states that the Word was God. It does not incorrectly insert the article, a, to insinuate a second god. It shows that the Word, Jesus, existed before He became man.

The following then shows that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

John 1:14 English Standard Version (ESV)

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Pretty simple to follow.

The last gives us the understanding of the Trinity.

1 John 5:7-8 English Standard Version (ESV)

7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

Why would you deny that which is clear unless you wish to distort and mislead?
 
musterion

musterion

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KingdomRose said:
(1) Does the Bible mention three distinct Persons?

No, the Bible does not mention THREE distinct Persons that are involved in a "Godhead."
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Wrong. Forget "Godhead' for a moment. Forget "Trinity." Don't anticipate -- pay attention to the progression of the graphic. God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are all referred to as distinct Persons. Period. Take it just that far and stop there before going further -- They each are referred to as distinct from the Others. That much is true.

(2) Does the bible refer to each as "God"?

No, not at all.
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Wrong. Christ and the Holy Spirit are both referred to as God, as shown by the citations in that section of the graphic. So this point, too, is true...take that truth, consider it with the last one, and stop there. Mull them over together.

Then -- and only then -- move on to this one:

(3) Does the Bible teach that there is only one God?

Yes, absolutely, and that God is the Father of Jesus.
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Correct, but that does not negate the other two points. It must be balanced with them because those points, as you've been shown, are just as true as this one.

If all three points are true -- and they are -- non-trinitarian conceptions cannot adequately account for them. They must pump one (usually the last) and downplay, ignore or deny the others. That's doing violence to God's Word and shows a love of the traditions of men.

Further comment?
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Yes. Your attempt at refutation is a failure. All three points of the graphic are backed up by Scripture. You must deny at least one of them for the concept of the Trinity to be false, and you can't do so without denying the veracity of the Word of God -- and of God Himself -- on those exact points. But for you that's no problem since you believe the NWT is the only reliable version available today.
 
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Bright Raven

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musterion said:
Wrong. Pay attention to the progression of the graphic, it is very clear. God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are all referred to as distinct persons. That point is true.
Wrong. Christ and the Holy Spirit are both referred to as God, as shown by the citations in that section of the graphic.

Correct, but that does not negate the other two points -- it must be balanced against them because those points are true as well.

Yes. Your attempt at refutation is a failure. All three points of the graphic are backed up by Scripture. You must deny at least one of them for the concept of the Trinity to be false, and you can't do so without denying the veracity of the Word of God -- and of God Himself -- on those exact points. But for you that's no problem since you believe the NWT is the only reliable version available today.
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And the King James Version was falsified to get the New World Translation.
 
musterion

musterion

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Bright Raven said:
And the King James Version was falsified to get the New World Translation.
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Joseph Smith, iirc, tried to pawn off his own version but the LDS at least had the sense not to try to replace the KJV. They just say it's unreliable and leave it at that. What the Watchtower did was a colossally stupid move.
 
S

SabathMoon

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It only says the father and the Holy Spirit are the one. οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν A somethings a three the one, they are. Three things doing the one thing. Thus 1 John 5:7 only implies the son, and mentions only God the Father as the Holy spirit.

Yes, the God was being manifested at/into the flesh (in effect, the dermis); but he wasn't the flesh. I know the concept is too complex for idolaters.
 
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