The Trinity in Creation in The Old Testament

YourWordIsTruth

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In the very first verse of the Book of Beginnings, Genesis, we read:

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”

The Hebrew for “God”, is “אֱלֹהִ֑ים”, which is masculine, plural; and “created”, is “בָּרָ֣א”, which is masculine, singular, and is literally, “He created”.

Some have argued that the plural “אֱלֹהִ֑ים”, is for “plural of majesties”, as a king or queen would say “we”. There is no Biblical evidence to support this, which is used by those who oppose the Bible’s teaching of the Holy Trinity.

In Genesis 1:26-27, we read:

“Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them”

Here we have “אֱלֹהִ֑ים” as the Speaker, Who says, “נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה” (let US make, plural), man, “בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ” (in OUR Image, plural), “כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ” (according to OUR Likeness).

Those who reject the Teaching of the Holy Trinity: One God, in Three distinct “Persons”, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, Who are completely equal, as Creators, have tried to explain this. We have the Palestinian Aramaic Targum, “ And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness”. And, in the Jewish Study Bible, “The plural construction (Let us . . . ) most likely reflects a setting in the divine council (cf. 1 Kings 22.19-22; Isa. ch 6; Job chs 1-2): God the King announces the proposed course of action to His cabinet of subordinate deities, though He alone retains the power of decision”

It is interesting that neither explanation argues for “plural of majesties”, in the language used in this verse. The Targum says that God is speaking to His “angels”, when He uses the plural, “let US…OUR”. But, in the next verse, this same Targum reads, “And the Lord created man in His likeness: In the image of the Lord He

created him”, which contradicts what they read in verse 26, as it is clear that humans are created in the Image and Likeness of GOD, and not God, and His created angels! The Jewish Study Bible is interesting, as it says that God is speaking here to His, “divine council…to His cabinet of subordinate deities”, which shows that there is one God and there are other “gods”, which is not Monotheistic! The Jerusalem Targum is even more interesting in verse 27, “And the Word of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him”. Creation of humans is by “the Word of the Lord”, which is what John 1:1-3 says!

In Isaiah 51:13, we read, “And forget Yahweh your Maker, that has stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth”. Here “Maker”, in the Hebrew is, “עֹשֶׂ֗ךָ”, which is masculine singular. However, in 54:5, we read, “For your Maker is your husband; Yahweh of hosts is His Name”. Here, “Maker” is the Hebrew, “עֹשַׂיִךְ”, which is masculine, plural, “Makers”! And, in Ecclesiastes 12:1, where it reads, “Remember now your Creator in the days of your youth”, here also the Hebrew, “אֶת־בּוֹרְאֶיךָ”, is masculine, plural, literally, “your Creators”. Whereas, in Isaiah 40:28, and 43:15, we have, “בּרא”, which is singular. Clearly, the use of the plural means more than One Person. It is not used in the sense of “majesties”, as if the singular does not speak of the “Majesty” of the Great God of the Bible!

Creation, in the Old Testament, is clearly the Work of The Three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

God The Father:

“Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am” (Isaiah 41:4)

“Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth” (Isaiah 42:5)

“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6)

“For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else” (Isaiah 45:18)

As we shall see, what is said of the Father, is also said of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

God The Son:

Isaiah 48:1-17


The words in this verse are like those found in verse 3, “I have declared the former things from the beginning”, and verse 5, “I have even from the beginning declared it to you”. In verse 12 and 13 the Speaker says, “Listen to Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He, I am the First, I also am the Last. My hand has also laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand spread out the heavens”. In verse 15 we read, “I, even I have spoken, yes, and I have called him”. In the very next verse, we read, “Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am YHWH your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go”.

Then, in verse 16, The Speaker, Who is Yahweh, says:

“Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit” (This is the order of words in the Hebrew, Greek and Latin Old Testament)

The Hebrew verb “שְׁלָחַנִי” is masculine, singular, 3rd person, “He has sent Me”.

The Speaker can only be The Eternal, Creator God. Making the Speaker in chapter 48, verses 1-17, a distinct “Person/Individual”, Who is also Yahweh. He is “sent” by “'Adônây YHWH”, and therefore cannot be the same “Person/Individual”, as the Sender. We have TWO Who are equally Yahweh, BOTH Creators.

God The Holy Spirit:

Job 33:4


“The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” (ESV, Hebrew-English Old Testament)

“The spirit of God hath made me, And the breath of the Almighty given me life.” (The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text, A New Translation. The Jewish Publication Society of America. 5677-1917)

“The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life” (Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol. IV)

“The spirit of God formed me; The breath of Shaddai sustains me” (The Jewish Study Bible)

In the Hebrew we have “עָשָׂ֑תְנִי”, which is literally, “she has made me”. Not because the Holy Spirit is “female”, but, for grammatical agreement of gender, with, “רוּח” (Spirit), which is also feminine. It makes it clear, that here reference is not to “God”, but rather to “the Spirit”, Who is the Creator.

made”, from the Hebrew verb, “עֲשׂוֹת”, which is used in Genesis 1

“in the beginning God created (בָּרָא) the heavens and the earth…God made (עֲשׂוֹת) the expanse” (Genesis 1:1, 7)

Note in this verse from Job, that “רוּח” (Spirit) is distinct from “נשׁמה” (breath), which is seen in Genesis 2:7, “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (נשׁמה)of life; and man became a living soul”. Job 33:4, is a clear reference to Genesis 2:7, which shows that the Holy Spirit Himself is “the LORD God”.

“The Divine Spirit is that which formed me, and the breath of the Almighty that which teaches me.” (Lancelot Brenton, The Septuagint in Greek and English)

Job 26:13

“By His Spirit He adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent” (NKJV)

“שִׁפְרָ֑ה”, is in the feminine, singular, literally, “she made beautiful”, because here, like in 33:4, the feminine is for grammatical agreement of gender, with, “רוּח” (Spirit).The Hebrew lexicon by Gesenius reads: “by his (God’s) Spirit the heavens were made brightness,” i.e. splendid, most splendid”

Some versions of the Bible here translate “רוּח”, as “breath”, or “wind”, which are both wrong in this context, as the grammar shows that “רוּח” is Personal, as the Creator. The Jewish Bible here reads:

“By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens ; his hand hath pierced the fleeing serpent” (Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol. IV)

And, the Latin and Syriac, made from the Hebrew, read:

“His spirit has adorned the heavens, and his birthing hand has brought forth the winding serpent” (Latin Vulgate)

“By his spirit he manages the heavens; his hand slew the fleeing serpent” (Syriac Peshetta)

The Creative Word of the Holy Spirit in “the heavens”. Yet we read that the “heavens” are the Work of Yahweh, “And forget Yahweh your maker, that has stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth” (Isaiah 51:13)

In this verse we have the same Hebrew word used in Job 33:4, “עֲשׂוֹת” (made). Both verses from Job are clear that the Holy Spirit also Created the “heavens and the earth”.

Here we have Old Testament evidence for The Holy Trinity in Creation. The “distinction” of the “Persons”, is clear from Isaiah 48:16, where the Sender, Who is Yahweh, Sends another, Who is also Yahweh, and the Holy Spirit.
 

TrevorL

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Greetings YourWordsIsTruth,
God is speaking to His “angels”, when He uses the plural, “let US…OUR”.
Yes I agree that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels. Two supportive Scriptures are the following:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou (Yahweh singular) hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Hebrews 13:2 (KJV): Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Psalm 8 uses the framework and language of the creation to speak about the New Creation in Jesus. The portion of Psalm 8:5 in bold is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 and this shows that the Angels were involved in the Edenic Creation. Hebrews 13:2 shows that man is similar in appearance to the Angels and confirms that man has been created in the image and likeness of God AND the Angels as stated in Genesis 1:26.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

YourWordIsTruth

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Greetings YourWordsIsTruth,

Yes I agree that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels. Two supportive Scriptures are the following:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou (Yahweh singular) hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Hebrews 13:2 (KJV): Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Psalm 8 uses the framework and language of the creation to speak about the New Creation in Jesus. The portion of Psalm 8:5 in bold is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 and this shows that the Angels were involved in the Edenic Creation. Hebrews 13:2 shows that man is similar in appearance to the Angels and confirms that man has been created in the image and likeness of God AND the Angels as stated in Genesis 1:26.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor, thanks for taking the time to respond. I do not see any evidence from the Bible that says that humans are created in the image of angels? The verses that you quote have nothing to do with Creation at all. This is a myth that the Jews believed in, because they could not accept that the God of the Old Testament is "plural" in Persons. The reading found in the Targums, are paraphrases made by man and not Inspired by the Lord as are the actual Books in the OT. Best wishes, Andy
 

TrevorL

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Greetings again Andy (YourWordsIsTruth),
The verses that you quote have nothing to do with Creation at all.
Yes, Psalm 8 has everything to do with Creation and the New Creation and Psalm 8:5 that Yahweh has made man a little lower than the Angels (Hebrew Elohim - also plural here but there is only one God, not three as you claim) is a succinct summary of the thoughts and concepts of Genesis 1:26-27. The Bible teaching is that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Tigger 2

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In the very first verse of the Book of Beginnings, Genesis, we read:

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”

The Hebrew for “God”, is “אֱלֹהִ֑ים”, which is masculine, plural; and “created”, is “בָּרָ֣א”, which is masculine, singular, and is literally, “He created”.

Some have argued that the plural “אֱלֹהִ֑ים”, is for “plural of majesties”, as a king or queen would say “we”. There is no Biblical evidence to support this, which is used by those who oppose the Bible’s teaching of the Holy Trinity.
..........................................
That the Hebrew plural is often used for a singular noun to denote “a ‘plural’ of majesty or excellence” is well-known by all Biblical Hebrew language experts and has been known from at least the time of Gesenius (1786-1842), who is still regarded as one of the best authorities for Biblical Hebrew!

Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament (“long regarded as a standard work for students”), p. 49, shows that elohim, ~yhla , (“God/gods”) is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,

“The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times.” And that elohim when used in that sense “occurs in a [numerically] singular sense” and is “constr[ued] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular.”

Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., pp. 398, 399, says:

“The pluralis excellentiae or maiestatis ... is properly a variety of the abstract plural, since it sums up the several characteristics belonging to the idea, besides possessing the secondary sense of an intensification of the original idea. It is thus closely related to the plurals of amplification .... So, especially Elohim ... ‘God’ (to be distinguished from the plural ‘gods’, Ex. 12:12, etc.) .... That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary, 1925 ed. Pg. 224:

Elohim "is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God."

More modern publications (trinitarian Protestant and Catholic) also make similar acknowledgments of the intended plural of majesty or excellence meaning for elohim. (See the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. v., p. 287.)

Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, describes elohim:

“The common plural form ‘elohim,’ a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159.

“Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical Hebrew

"The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’. In the Hebrew Bible such plural forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, e.g., adonim ‘I am a master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Mal. 1.6), although it can also be used when referring to a human, e.g., abraham adonaw ‘Abraham his master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Gen. 24.9), an object, e.g. gibroteka ‘your grave (lit. ‘graves’)’ (2 Kgs 22.20), ...." - ENCYCLOPEDIA OF HEBREW LANGUAGE AND LINGUISTICS, p. 145, vol. 3, 2013.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:

“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:

“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.

The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. xxi, July 1905 (Aaron Ember) tells us: “several phenomena in the universe were designated in Hebrew by plural expressions because they inspired the Hebrew mind with the idea of greatness, majesty, grandeur, and holiness.”

Ember also says:

“Various theories have been advanced to explain the use of the plural elohim as a designation of the God of Israel. least plausible is the view of the Old Theologians, beginning with Peter Lombard (twelfth century A. D.), that we have in the plural form a reference to the Trinity .... that the language of the OT has entirely given up the idea of plurality [in number] in elohim (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular attribute.

“...elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to the Great God. It ranks with the plurals adonim [‘master,’ ‘lord’] and baalim [‘owner’, ‘lord’] employed with reference to [individual] human beings.”

The famous trinitarian scholar, Robert Young, (Young’s Analytical Concordance and Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible) wrote in his Young’s Concise Critical Commentary, p. 1,

“Heb. elohim, a plural noun ... it seems to point out a superabundance of qualities in the Divine Being rather than a plurality of persons .... It is found almost invariably accompanied by a verb in the singular number.”

Exodus 7:1 (KJV and Hebrew text) shows God calling Moses "a god" (elohim). This alone shows the error of some that the plural elohim must mean a "plural oneness" unless we want to believe Moses was a multiple-person Moses!

And The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1986, tells us:

Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. ‘gods’). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural elohim (e.g. Jdg. 11:24; 1 Ki. 11:5; 2 Ki. 1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the plural of fullness; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God.” - p. 67, Vol. 2.

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:

“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

And the New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:

ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:

“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among [real] scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”

And the prestigious work edited by Hastings says about this:

"It is exegesis of a mischievous if pious sort that would find the doctrine of the Trinity in the plural form elohim [God]" ("God," Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics).

To show how ancient Jewish scholars themselves understood this we can look at the work of the seventy Hebrew scholars who translated the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (OT) into Greek several centuries before the time of Christ. The Greek language did not use the “plural of excellence” that the Hebrew did. So, if we see a plural used in the Greek Septuagint, it was really intended to represent more than one individual!

So how is elohim rendered in the Greek Septuagint by those ancient Hebrew scholars? Whenever it clearly refers to Jehovah God, it is always found to be singular in number (just as in New Testament Greek): theos ! Whenever elohim clearly refers to a plural (in number) noun, it is always found to be plural in number in Greek (just as in the New Testament Greek): theoi or theois (“gods”).

For example: “I am the Lord thy God [elohim - plural of excellence in Hebrew becomes theos - singular in the Greek Septuagint]” - Ex. 20:2. And “know that the Lord he is God [as always, the plural elohim, as applied to the God of Israel, becomes the singular, theos in the Septuagint] he made us...” - Ps. 100:3.

But when elohim really does mean plural in number, we see it rendered into the Greek plural for “gods” in the Septuagint: “Thou shalt not worship their gods [elohim in Hebrew becomes theois - plural in the Greek Septuagint], nor serve them .... And thou shalt serve the Lord thy God [singular - Greek].” - Ex. 23:24-25.

We see exactly the same thing happening for translations of the plural elohim in the ancient Septuagint and in the Christian NT.

Yes, all the NT Bible writers, whether quoting from the OT or writing their own God-inspired NT scriptures, always used the singular “God” (theos) in NT Greek when speaking of the only true God of the Bible. (If the plural form had been used for the only true God, we would even discover a new “trinity” at John 10:34.)

It is absolutely incredible that John, Paul, and the other inspired NT writers would not have used the plural Greek form to translate the plural Hebrew form of “God” if they had intended in any degree to imply that God was in any way more than one person!

Do you still say "there is no Biblical evidence to support this."?
 
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Omniskeptical

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“I shall make man in My image and My likeness” (ibid., v. 26);18Instead of Let us make man in our image. etc.
(MIDRASH Midrash Tanchuma Shemot, Siman 22)

The apostles never heard of the word Elohim. The OT after the fall of the 2nd temple is not inerrant.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings Omnisketptical,
The apostles never heard of the word Elohim.
I suggest that the Apostles did hear of the word Elohim when Jesus quoted and expounded Psalm 82:6 in John 10:30-38:
John 10:30–38 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Psalm 82:6 (KJV): I have said, Ye are gods (Hebrew Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.


Kind regards
Trevor
 

Omniskeptical

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Greetings Omnisketptical,

I suggest that the Apostles did hear of the word Elohim when Jesus quoted and expounded Psalm 82:6 in John 10:30-38:
John 10:30–38 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Psalm 82:6 (KJV): I have said, Ye are gods (Hebrew Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.


Kind regards
Trevor
Elin for plural, El for singular. There is no such word in "Aramaic".
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Omnisketptical,
Elin for plural, El for singular. There is no such word in "Aramaic".
I suggest that when Jesus read from the Scrolls of the Psalms and Isaiah in the Synagogue in Nazareth that he read from the Hebrew, not Aramaic. The DSS of these are Hebrew. Does the DSS have some or extensive scrolls in Aramaic? I also suggest that when Jesus quoted the OT he would quote the Hebrew, especially when talking to the Pharisees and Scribes. El appears in the OT but Elohim which is based on El, has a wider range of meaning in the OT than a simple plural of El. I have yet to check, but I have not encountered Elin in the OT.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

JudgeRightly

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“I shall make man in My image and My likeness” (ibid., v. 26);18Instead of Let us make man in our image. etc.
(MIDRASH Midrash Tanchuma Shemot, Siman 22)

I'll let these three screenshots speak for themselves.

Verse:
Screenshot_20210830-081103.png

"In Our image":
Screenshot_20210830-081115.png

"and in Our likeness":
Screenshot_20210830-081120.png

Note that while "image" and "likeness" are singular, part of the words indicate a plurality in ownership. "Our," not "My."

The apostles never heard of the word Elohim.

And your point is?

The OT after the fall of the 2nd temple is not inerrant.

So?

At least for me, I believe that the scriptures were perfect in their original manuscripts, but since copies are made by men, and man is fallible, therefore errors have crept into the text; however, none if the errors compromise the overall message of the Bible.

Remember, the Bible has only been translated once, at most twice, not multiple times. From hebrew to Greek (Septuagint). From Hebrew and Greek to Latin. From Hebrew and Greek to English.
 

TrevorL

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Greetings JudgeRightly ,
Remember, the Bible has only been translated once, at most twice, not multiple times. From hebrew to Greek (Septuagint). From Hebrew and Greek to Latin. From Hebrew and Greek to English.
How do you explain the numerous translations into English? e.g. Tyndale, Coverdale, KJV, RV, RSV, NIV, NASB, ESV etc., and all of these having some significant differences.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

JudgeRightly

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How do you explain the numerous translations into English?

Different people have different commitments to different beliefs. That's how.

e.g. Tyndale, Coverdale, KJV, RV, RSV, NIV, NASB, ESV etc., and all of these having some significant differences.

What you believe can affect how you translate something.
 

JudgeRightly

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This seems to contradict your previous statement.

Well, no. Both things are true.

The Bible, be it the ESV, NKJV, KJV, NASB, etc, all have only a single translation between them and the original languages.

That's what it means to be translated once from Hebrew/Greek to English. Those Bibles are English translations.

The fact that multiple groups have translated the Bible multiple different ways doesn't change the fact that there is only one translation step between the original languages and English, no matter the version.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again JudgeRightly,
The Bible, be it the ESV, NKJV, KJV, NASB, etc, all have only a single translation between them and the original languages.
I find this way of stating the position is strange. I consider for example that the KJV is one translation, and Tyndale and Coverdale are different translations even though the KJV relied heavily upon these two. Also the Bible has been translated into numerous other languages, such as German and French, and this is also contrary to your statement:
Remember, the Bible has only been translated once, at most twice, not multiple times. From hebrew to Greek (Septuagint). From Hebrew and Greek to Latin. From Hebrew and Greek to English.
In actual fact the Bible has been translated into nearly every language.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

JudgeRightly

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I find this way of stating the position is strange. I consider for example that the KJV is one translation, and Tyndale and Coverdale are different translations even though the KJV relied heavily upon these two.'

The point I was making was that there is only one translation "step" between Hebrew/Greek and English, regardless of which English translation you pick.

Also the Bible has been translated into numerous other languages, such as German and French, and this is also contrary to your statement:

No it isn't.

Of the singular translation steps I listed, not one of them is German or French.

I don't know the history of the French nor German Bibles, which is why I didn't mention them. But that doesn't mean that I was contradicting anything. What I said was true.... ABOUT THE ENGLISH AND LATIN TRANSLATIONS. I cannot speak to the other languages.

In actual fact the Bible has been translated into nearly every language.

So what?

I'm not talking about other languages, I'm talking specifically about Hebrew to Greek, and Hebrew/Greek to Latin, and Hebrew/Greek to English, ALL of which have only a single step of translation in the process.

In particular, the English translation WAS NOT translated from Greek to Aramaic to Latin to German to Spanish to English, which would be 5 translations, it was translated to English DIRECTLY FROM Hebrew/Greek.
 
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I find this way of stating the position is strange. I consider for example that the KJV is one translation, and Tyndale and Coverdale are different translations even though the KJV relied heavily upon these two. Also the Bible has been translated into numerous other languages, such as German and French, and this is also contrary to your statement:
JR was specifically talking about translations TO ENGLISH and not other languages.
 
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