Your allowance for my extrapolation of my last answer is simply addition to your previous question. Thus...
Shoot
The Timelessness of God
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Your allowance for my extrapolation of my last answer is simply addition to your previous question. Thus...
Shoot
How do you propose I "forget math" if you bring up infinity in the very next sentence?
It's just this sort of sloppy thinking that allows one to be convinced to solve paradoxes with contradictions!
I'm not interested in personal opinions. Prove it.
You won't be able to. (Not because you're stupid or anything but simply because it can't be proven.)
This isn't true.
I recommend reading through the thread I linked too before. It goes into this whole topic is some considerable detail.
Suffice it to say for now that if you insist on sticking with this line of reasoning, you'll have to join Zeno and believe that your entire existence is an illusion which he believed because Achilles could never have caught a rabbit. It really is essentially the same argument you are making.
God was "before all things", it says in verse 17.
What does "before" mean?
How does "before" have meaning outside of duration and sequence?
Here's something to watch for. No conversation about existence outside of time can take place without contradicting yourself. There is no rational way to even discuss it. When this is true of any other topic it is readily used as good reason to reject the idea as false. The most common reason people cling to ideas in spite of sound reason is a blind belief in their doctrine. When you hold your doctrine above sound reason, nothing is out of bounds and no truth claim can be falsified. If doctrine trumps reason then maybe David Koresh was the second coming of Christ after all.
On the contrary! I'm actually surprised at the mental effort required to formulate and present arguments for a spherical Earth. They aren't as intuitive as you might expect. I've enjoyed that thread quite a lot.
So far, this one hasn't been bad either!
Resting in Him,
Clete
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Greetings Clete,
Earlier I said:
This is your answer:
If my idea is in error then tell me when some man or woman knew who in the future would believe and be saved. As far as we know, a person might not even be alive tomorrow so no one on the earth can know whether or not that person will believe in the future.
Then please tell me how this happened unless the LORD exists outside of time?:
Notice that the LORD ordained or appoined them to eternal life before they believed. Therefore, the LORD had to foreknow who would believe.
Let us look at this verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
How could the LORD have chosen some to be saved before the foundation of the world unless He had a foreknowledge of exactly who would believe?
Thanks!
Earlier I said:
In fact, we cannot have a definite knowledge of very specific things which will happen in the future, such as knowing who will believe the gospel and who will not.
This is your answer:
If my idea is in error then tell me when some man or woman knew who in the future would believe and be saved. As far as we know, a person might not even be alive tomorrow so no one on the earth can know whether or not that person will believe in the future.
Then please tell me how this happened unless the LORD exists outside of time?:
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).
Notice that the LORD ordained or appoined them to eternal life before they believed. Therefore, the LORD had to foreknow who would believe.
Let us look at this verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
How could the LORD have chosen some to be saved before the foundation of the world unless He had a foreknowledge of exactly who would believe?
Thanks!
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Assertions such as "outside of time" or " creation from nothing" (sui generis) hold no rational nor experiential viability ....meaning we cannot experience nor understand such concepts
Thus how may a believer reconcile such theological notions to the ideation of an mundanely interceding god?
This is what I've been trying to explain to Right Divider. Time cannot have been created, because when something is 'created,' it goes from a state of non-existence, to existence, which is itself a sequence, a "before" and "after." You cannot have a 'sequence' without time.
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Right Divider
Body part
And those references are always related to God with and through His creation. No big surprise there.
Be careful not to be anthropocentric.
So, in other words, your admitting that the Bible does not say or indicate that God is outside of time?
So basically don't believe that we humans are at the center of God's attention? Why? kgov.com/axis-of-evil
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Right Divider
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You really believe that something that God declares will happen doesn't?
I would say that the ones that you guys are talking about are conditional.
Right Divider
Body part
I'm never surprised by what you unbelievers will say.
I agree.
And it also seems to contradict what they are claiming in the first place.
If all of creation is constrained by time, ..... then there is no way there could be a future yet because all that was created HAS TO go in sequence.
In other words the future has not happened EVER in any way shape or form in the created universe because the created universe is restricted by time to and MUST go in sequence.
And that means that what we will do in the future has NEVER taken place.
I'm constantly surprised by what comes out of believers' mouths.
Tell me, have you ever created something from nothing?
How do you even begin? :idunno:
I'm thinking that since man was made in the image of GOD, and GOD appeared as a man to Abe, and GOD became a man and dwelt among us, ...... then I think 'manlike' would be one of the top ways we should visualize GOD.
But that's just me.
I am gathering that the yes and no structure is something you want to step out of and perhaps return to expressive dialogue. I am willing. I prefer the yes and no structure because it leaves no wiggle room for misunderstanding; however it does leave much to be answered.
So...
I will requote you and proceed.
Various 'rational' fields of science disagree that time is what we perceive it to be.
I have never once asserted that something came from nothing. In fact, I assert that the tangible everything came from the "Intangible" "Everything". Thus again... you are stigmatizing your assertions without actual knowledge of my understanding.
You have entered experience into the rational matter of things, thus experience is now valid. Understanding is all around us. Consider what I could express with simple observation. All things are tied to all things in observation. The very smallest observation of life around us reveals hierarchy in some form or fashion that keeps pointing to a perpetual plain of exsistance and understanding that expands outwards.
Theology is fictional assumptions of mankind. However, once one leaves the train station of pre-conception and begins to search, one is immediately aware that unseen influences shape the world around us more deeply than what is tangibly observable.
I choose to proceed with a question that compliments this. Which is stronger? Love or Brute force?
Right Divider
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Why are you telling me about a God that you do not even think exists?
No, I have not. I'm not God.
quip logic: Since I, quip, cannot understand it... it cannot be true.
Right Divider
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We must always remember that God condescends to man's level only to communicate with man and interact with man.
I think that to think that God is 'manlike' is very dangerous and possibly blasphemous.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Right Divider
Body part
Good Grief...
Gods essential NATURE is NOT "manlike".
You're just looking for something to make you look "smart" or something. Get lost.
What makes you think God can do the illogical?