ECT The sneaky sin of Self-Righteousness

[Nick M]

You know guys, I came to believe that the devil´s biggest trick ever is to make Christians fight each other, condemning each other

Nope. He has you fooled thinking wolves are saints.

 

[Nick M]

Can you show me where it is written that I have to believe in the Apostle Paul in order to get saved?

Strawman.

 

[CJLind]

I think that giving someone the reasons you hold your beliefs the way you do is one of the instructions we're given in Scripture. I also believe that The Word of God causes contention. Jesus came to bring a sword. Iron sharpens iron. He came to set fire to this earth and wished it was already lit. Faithful are the wounds of a friend. A word fitly spoken is like golden apples in a silver background (in other words: VERY GOOD).

The truth hurts sometimes, but it is a good pain...a heart of stone cannot feel any pain, but it is also dead for the love of Christ. The biggest gift we can get from HIM is a heart of flesh. However, I know it comes with a price, partaking in the suffering of Christ, but the suffering is nothing compared with what we gain, HIS Love...

 

[Lon]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I am still very new here in this Forum and i do enjoy the great discussions going on, so much food for thought! However, one thing really strikes me, how professing Christians can treat each other with such contempt.

There are a couple of reasons for that. It is hard to explain, but we have theologies represented here from both sides of extremes, each other denying the other's Christianity, because of the extreme. Without a good grasp of MAD theology, it'd be hard to spell it out as clearly as it would take for you to get this particular point. In a grossly oversimplified nutshell, MAD believes the Gospel cannot be Judaised ala Galatians AND see the rest of Christianity as confused or false teachers, depending. "If someone is a false teacher, they need harsh rebuke," etc. There are Calvinists that would deny MAD as Christian, so it forces some issues. The admin, Knight, in his wisdom or folly, thought to put all of these in the same forum AND fostered an atmosphere where they could take jabs, perhaps actually coming to understand one another better, if not coming to any fellowship type of terms. As long as any one person follows the rules of the forum, they remain here a long time, pagans, atheists, agnostics, Catholics, Protestants, MAD, as well as all cults. Many of us still haven't managed to grasp that kind of insanity I think that' s why it is a unique and eclectic website. It is important to know a bit of this, coming in, so your blinders aren't causing you to miss a lot of subtle and a lot of in-your-face details.

I guess it is a mirror of our society where it is all about "the winner takes it all" and a "they and us" mentality. Maybe this is evidence for Matthew 10:34 coming true?

I'm not sure TOL is a good picture of that. What I do think it is, is a good picture of what happens when we all congregate in one place, rather than staying separate into our separate denominations. TOL is primarily a Christian 'debate' website, which fosters bouts of one kind or another.

I have very mixed feelings about the Apostle Paul, mainly because of my limited understanding and shortcomings but this I guess, I share with all of humanity (Romans 3:23), and his way of writing.

:think: 2 Peter 3:15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

However, I can fully understand and fully agree with him in Romans 2:1

Spoiler

"1Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed."
Also compare with what Jesus says in Matthew 5:22 : "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire"

Let´s be honest, the Sin of Self-Righteousness is probably one of the most difficult ones to overcome, and we all suffer from it from time to time, and if one has it, one is likely not to know it (Check also Proverbs 2:15

Spoiler

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.").
So what to do? I guess Proverbs 26 tells us the way to go:
"4Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
5Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes."
"11Like a dog that returns to his vomit
is a fool who repeats his folly.
12Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him."

There is not much hope for the Self-Righteous Fool am afraid. At least not from a human perspective. However, nothing is impossible for our Lord and Saviour, so we shouldn´t give up, but pray for HIS intervention to save them/us from this deadly and sneaky sin.

Pride is a difficult subject on TOL specifically, because there are false teachers, rather confrontational nonbelievers, and an atmosphere of debate and challenge. There are underlying reasons why such is the case here on TOL. I think I started a bit the same way you did in first coming to TOL near it's inception. I am definitely made of the "Why can't we all get along" stuff, but I understand more clearly 'why not' having been here for awhile. There are a lot of background reasons for a lot of what you see he on TOL. There are Kumbayah Christian websites, this one does have that, but it is a 'rebuke' and 'iron sharpen' Christian website that isn't really the hand-holding Kumbayah variety.

As such, it is a unique website in that it encourages all sorts and kinds to debate and get to know one another and perhaps grow our own resolve and theology from standing the tests of scrutiny. '

Not sure I gave much help, but perhaps a glimpse of why and what, all things TOL. In Him,

-Lon

 

[CJLind]

There are a couple of reasons for that. It is hard to explain, but we have theologies represented here from both sides of extremes, each other denying the other's Christianity, because of the extreme. Without a good grasp of MAD theology, it'd be hard to spell it out as clearly as it would take for you to get this particular point. In a grossly oversimplified nutshell, MAD believes the Gospel cannot be Judaised ala Galatians AND see the rest of Christianity as confused or false teachers, depending. "If someone is a false teacher, they need harsh rebuke," etc.


I'm not sure TOL is a good picture of that. What I do think it is, is a good picture of what happens when we all congregate in one place, rather than staying separate into our separate denominations. TOL is primarily a Christian 'debate' website, which fosters bouts of one kind or another.

:think: 2 Peter 3:15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
http://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-17.htm
[/spoiler]
Pride is a difficult subject on TOL specifically, because there are false teachers, rather confrontational nonbelievers, and an atmosphere of debate and challenge. There are underlying reasons why such is the case here on TOL. I think I started a bit the same way you did in first coming to TOL near it's inception. I am definitely made of the "Why can't we all get along" stuff, but I understand more clearly 'why not' having been here for awhile. There are a lot of background reasons for a lot of what you see he on TOL. There are Kumbayah Christian websites, this one does have that, but it is a 'rebuke' and 'iron sharpen' Christian website that isn't really the hand-holding Kumbayah variety.

As such, it is a unique website in that it encourages all sorts and kinds to debate and get to know one another and perhaps grow our own resolve and theology from standing the tests of scrutiny. '

Not sure I gave much help, but perhaps a glimpse of why and what, all things TOL. In Him,

-Lon

Thanks! Ya, i already understood how it is here at TOL and actually i think it mirrors just the world we live in quite well.

 

[Lon]

Thanks! Ya, i already understood how it is here at TOL and actually i think it mirrors just the world we live in quite well.

Perhaps. I've never been in a church that had a church split, I mean other than as a good thing, like a church plant, so maybe it is TOO rosy in my neck of the woods...not really, but I haven't seen a lot of church friction

 

[Lon]

1. Thou SHALL NOT use profanity or insinuated profanity on this forum. Crass potty humor is also discouraged here at TOL.

Well, i guess we have a different definition of that, Mr Kett! Anyway, from my side this is it. Told you what I was told to tell you. Bye

:doh: Potty mouth was referring to your 'mental' [blank] comment and you are going to get a ban for talking back to a mod (Kett) disrespectfully.

How can you be about Kumbayah when you then turn around and disrupt the website like this, breaking two [2] of the rules??? :idunno:

 

[CJLind]

Perhaps. I've never been in a church that had a church split, I mean other than as a good thing, like a church plant, so maybe it is TOO rosy in my neck of the woods... :idunno:

Zambia is just crazy when it comes to all the different denominations, all of them are here and all are competing with each other, including Jehova´s Wittneses, SDA, LDS, New Apoostolic, Catholic, Pentacoastals, etc etc plus Islam is getting more prominent, Bahai is here as well, etc etc...

granted, some of the believers don´t even care about doctrine so much, they go to a certain church because it´s tradition or it´s just convenience, but for most of them it is clear that their group is right and all the others are wrong and are going to hell. And if you just look at Sudan or Nigeria with Boko Haram, not even mentioning ISIS, there is just too much hatred around regarding what we belief. In this respect, i can actually understand a guy like Sam Harris, who is repulsed by any type of religion. I guess that´s the difference between God and us, God can use the imperfect to create something perfect, while we got something perfect and just destroy it...i don´t really understand the whole thing regarding evil and the devil, but it is just too obvious that there is something very wrong in our world what is partly reflected in this forum as well...

 

[CJLind]

Honestly, i don´t care, ban me, please...i actually wanted to delete my profile already, but somehow i can´t find the right button...

 

[Lon]

Honestly, i don´t care, ban me, please...i actually wanted to delete my profile already, but somehow i can´t find the right button...

Well, she seems to have taken you just fine and turned it around. I'm just saying that for a guy who wants a kumbayah moment...


You 'might' belong here after all :chuckle:

There are some who are banned every other week, and some who aren't at all.
By the sound of it, TOL might be tamer than your neck of the woods!

 

[CJLind]

Revelation 9:6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

This place is Hell, and you don´t know it

 

[musterion]

Yep.

 

[Lon]

Revelation 9:6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

This place is Hell, and you don´t know it

Er, if you and I have any experience in that, I'd say we've already come through a bunch of that in our lives, if not our churches. I don't get into that much, but I've been through a lot. The only horror would be/was not knowing Jesus and Him crucified and risen.

Isaiah 41:13"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.' 14"Do not be afraid, you little worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. 15"Behold, I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges; You will thresh the mountains and pulverize them, And will make the hills like chaff.…

 

[CJLind]

Er, if you and I have any experience in that, I'd say we've already come through a bunch of that in our lives, if not our churches. I don't get into that much, but I've been through a lot. The only horror would be/was not knowing Jesus and Him crucified and risen.

Isaiah 41:13"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.' 14"Do not be afraid, you little worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. 15"Behold, I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges; You will thresh the mountains and pulverize them, And will make the hills like chaff.…

Amen.

 

[turbosixx]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I am still very new here in this Forum and i do enjoy the great discussions going on, so much food for thought! However, one thing really strikes me, how professing Christians can treat each other with such contempt. I guess it is a mirror of our society where it is all about "the winner takes it all" and a "they and us" mentality. Maybe this is evidence for Matthew 10:34 coming true?
I have very mixed feelings about the Apostle Paul, mainly because of my limited understanding and shortcomings but this I guess, I share with all of humanity (Romans 3:23), and his way of writing. However, I can fully understand and fully agree with him in Romans 2:1: "1Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed."
Also compare with what Jesus says in Matthew 5:22 : "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire"
Let´s be honest, the Sin of Self-Righteousness is probably one of the most difficult ones to overcome, and we all suffer from it from time to time, and if one has it, one is likely not to know it (Check also Proverbs 2:15: "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.").
So what to do? I guess Proverbs 26 tells us the way to go:
"4Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
5Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes."
"11Like a dog that returns to his vomit
is a fool who repeats his folly.
12Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him."
There is not much hope for the Self-Righteous Fool am afraid. At least not from a human perspective. However, nothing is impossible for our Lord and Saviour, so we shouldn´t give up, but pray for HIS intervention to save them/us from this deadly and sneaky sin.

I agree. I didn't expect the piety and name calling on this site from "Christians". You know a tree by it's fruit. Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Being called names doesn't bother me, I feel sorry for them. When they see their position weakening or can't defend it, they resort to labeling and name calling. God knows their hearts even if they do not.

Be patient, I was looking to leave and never come back but someone encouraged me to stay and I'm glad they did. I figure it would help me to grow and hopefully help someone else. I want to challenge my thinking so I know where I stand. If someone can show me where I'm wrong, they are my friend.

 

[CJLind]

2 Cor 5:4
For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

He pretty much nails it...

 

[musterion]

And he'd be dead wrong.

 

[CJLind]

He could always say: Yes, but it's not to me or for me.

Will definitely remember this one, thanks! :up:

The thing is, I am very thankful to Paul, after all Christianity would have never spread up to Germany, were i was (physically) born...
Moreover, he was writing some genius stuff, I truly believe that he was inspired, but for me that doesn´t need to mean that he was necessarily infallible AND it does definitely not mean that our INTERPRETATIONS of his writings are.

 

[Levolor]

Will definitely remember this one, thanks! :up:

You're welcome.

The thing is, I am very thankful to Paul, after all Christianity would have never spread up to Germany, were i was (physically) born...

I too am grateful for St. Paul. Christianity would have never spread throughout the world as it has without him. Christ needed a zealous person, and St. Paul fit the bill.

Moreover, he was writing some genius stuff, I truly believe that he was inspired, but for me that doesn´t need to mean that he was necessarily infallible AND it does definitely not mean that our INTERPRETATIONS of his writings are.

I too see the inspiration for our Lord and I agree: he was not infallible and the interpretations of his writings, as we see, can and are used in a manner that they were never intended to be. But, it is a problem from since the time of St. Paul as shown in 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 with St. Paul begging people to not make the divisions that MAD now does.

Then, there are places that St. Paul says that he is speaking as a man and not under the inspiration of God. Could there be more times that he was doing so again and failed to mention it?

Jesus said to preach the Gospel, and so much is made from St. Paul saying my gospel... yes, his good news is the same good news as mine, yours, everybody's who has placed their lives in the hands of Christ. Christ saves, delivers, restores and shows us the way to Our Father. But, if He is not followed by our picking up our own cross and following Him to be worthy of Him, how can a person ever arrive there? I don't know, but all things are possible for God, and I will not limit His ability to do just that for all people who truly place their trust in Him.

 

[Levolor]

Without a good grasp of MAD theology...

Every time I ask questions about it, those questions get ignored. This was done very recently. Again, I might add.

Or, instead of being ignored, being ridiculed and the giving of nasty negative reps are the order of the day, which just shows that they have no answers and have to resort to :baby: infantile behavior.

They can't be comfortable with their own theology if that is all that MADists can do when sincerely inquired of.