The Serious Consequences of NOT Believing that Jesus Atoned for the Sins of the World

[Robert Pate]

He is the only Savior available to the world, but He is no "potential Savior." If He is only the provider of possible salvation to the unsaved, then it is still no great assurance to believers that He provides the same uncertain salvation to them.

He is more than a provider of salvation. He does not passively make it available, so that clever, spiritual men can come pick up a bottle of salvation at their leisure. He opens and softens hearts. He opens eyes. He seeks out His lost sheep and unfailingly brings them back. He gives the increase in His Church. It is because of Him (not ourselves) that we are in Christ Jesus.

You claim all the credit for your personal belief but never explain why God keeps taking credit for conversions in the scriptures, if that is supposed to be so unjust of Him.



1) With whom exactly would God be "on the hook"?

Again, you are eager to judge the One who told Job, “Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" Or the One who answered a similarly foolish argument with Rom9:20 "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' ”

You say delusional things like this because you believe God is in the defendant's chair and must meet your approval. You are starting from a foundation of human philosophy and trying to adjust scripture to fit. Until you repent of this mindset, you are in danger from the God of the Bible, who laughs with derision at your arrogance.

2) Luke14 includes the parable of the Great Supper. A great man invites many to come to be his guests, but all refuse (in ways that subtly mock him).

Luke14:23 Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

If the master is willing to "compel" some to come in, does that make him evil? Who does the master in the story represent?

Luke 14:23 teaches free will. The Gospel goes into all of the world, but only some respond. No one is forced to come in. God does not impose salvation on anyone.

 

[Robert Pate]

So...you're saying Satan's prideful fall was not a sin?

Or that you think you will be "free" to fall and be cast out of Heaven?

Satan by his own free will chose to sin against God, just like Adam. Neither one lost their free will in the fall. What they lost was their relationship with God.

 

[jamie]

There can be no atonement for sin that is unforgivable.

If there is one sin with no atonement then it follows that not all sin is atoned for.

All sin minus one sin is not all sin.

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

Blasphemy against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come, the millennial Sabbath.

It will be forgiven for the Great Day.

 

[Robert Pate]

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

Blasphemy against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come, the millennial Sabbath.

It will be forgiven for the Great Day.

Blasphemy against the Gospel is blasphemy against he Holy Spirit.

 

[Epoisses]

What is atonement and what does it do?

It doesn't do anything for unbelievers.

 

[Epoisses]

Hate that I missed this gem before.

Jesus is the only Savior available for the world, but logically, He remains the Savior only of the saved. The unsaved don't have a savior, by definition. A savior is one who saves. This shouldn't be brain surgery...

OTOH, if God intended to save every single person through Jesus' death (as you say), then God's plan was a complete failure, as only some are saved. If the sin of refusing to believe in His Son was truly atoned for, God could never condemn or cast anyone into Hell, but only sadly accept their free will choice to turn away from Him and go to Hell willingly. (But that's not the scriptural picture we are given, rather it is God who actively shuts the door and God who casts into Hell - God hates these sinners. (Psa5:5, Psa11:5))

But contrary to your view of a passive God who means well and offers to save every single person but doesn't seem to get very involved with individuals in space and time, the scriptures do teach of One who "works all things after the counsel of His will." (Eph1:12)

Isa46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,
Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it."

Scripture teaches that God can easily frustrate man's will but that His plans cannot fail. (How could they, since He has declared the ends from the beginning?)

Psa33:10-11The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect.
The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Psa135:5-6 For I know that the Lord is great, And our Lord is above all gods.
Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.(Psa115:3; Dan4:35)

God does whatever he pleases in heaven and earth, so if it pleased Him to save every person, He could do that. But that doesn't seem to be His intent in scripture.

When Paul was encouraging Timothy, he didn't appeal to Timothy to trust his own free will, but rather to trust the purposes of this God who declares the end from the beginning:

2Tim1:8-9 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began...

There is an alternative offered in scripture to your view, that instead of one homogeneous world toward whom God offers vague well-wishing, there are two distinct subsets with different purposes:

Rom9:22-23 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory...?

You don't like that. It's not very egalitarian. You would prefer a smaller god-ling who is constrained by time who cannot declare the end from the beginning so that everyone could have a "chance" of choosing to be a vessel of mercy. That's why I keep harping on your devotion to Aristotle - when you read the Bible through the lens of human philosophy, it does seem unfair for God to love and choose only some. But the Bible repeatedly says that that is what He does - He sees a world where no one at all will come to Him, so being mighty to save (Zep3:17, Isa63:1), He opens and softens hearts so that some will certainly come and be saved.

Matt1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He WILL save His people from their sins.

If Jesus' mission was to save every single person from their sins, He failed. But His mission was always based on a love for His people, the Church. (Eph5:25)

I missed your scripture reference on how it could be "like, the worst sin you can commit?" Is it only the worst because you personally disagree with it?

So you cheerfully declare all 5pointers damned, not because of scripture, but because of your personal pride? Your arrogance knows no bounds...

Calvinism should not be a salvation issue at all - it's only useful as it helps to explain how the whole bible fits together. It only becomes a salvation issue when someone like Pate denies SOOOO much of scripture to hold onto to those 8 or so verses (taken out of context) that he so cherishes...and worse, aspires to judge God as unjust if God won't submit to Pate's moral authority. That is simply madness.

If Jesus said the OT was about Him, then I believe it. If the God who inspired the Psalms says that it is the ungodly who try to mock him by saying, "Does God really know?", then I will affirm that God really declares(/ordains) your end before you are born, even if it enrages you as you hold tight to Aristotle's ethical teaching. If the scriptures really teach that if Jesus was given up for us, then we will certainly receive all things for salvation (such as justification), then either every single person will certainly receive justification and salvation, or else Rom8:32-34 was written only about the Church and not every single person.

Another blow-hard post. 5-point Calvinists are damned by their own admission because they don't believe that Christ died for the whole world. Unbelief is the sin that gets you lopped off the olive tree both Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[way 2 go]

I'll play.

There's nothing external that limits Jesus' atonement, but His intention in offering Himself could be a possible limiting factor.

In John17:9,20, Jesus prays for only those people who believe or will believe. If He is only offering Himself for that subset of human beings in space and time, then it makes sense to limit His High Priestly prayer accordingly and refuse to make intercession for the subset of people who will never believe.

Rom8:32-34 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Again, if Jesus was delivered up for us all, then who could condemn us, as those for whom Jesus died will surely receive all things for salvation, including justification. But this promise has nothing to offer unbelievers, who are condemned "already" (John3:18).

Gal3:13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)...

Matt25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

If Jesus became a curse for those goats on His left, how could they still cursed and told to depart?

The value of His sacrifice was infinite and could have covered every single person, but the Bible tells us that some are "condemned already" and God's wrath abides against them, suggesting that God is not in a state of "at-one-ment" with certain people - He is certainly not reconciled to them.

Heb10:12-14 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews tells us that "by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Please walk me through how this could logically include the enemies that He is waiting to make His footstool? Please don't skip steps so I can follow along.

Jesus atoned for all sin but not all sins will be paid for by Jesus.

 

[Brother Ducky]

It doesn't do anything for unbelievers.

OK. What is atonement and what does it do for believers and why does it do nothing for unbelievers?

 

[Robert Pate]

OK. What is atonement and what does it do for believers and why does it do nothing for unbelievers?

Atonement means to make payment for sins. Jesus, in our name and on our behalf has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. All that believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins are justified. Those that don't are the lost and are still in their sins.

 

[Charles94]

Jesus atoned for all sin but not all sins will be paid for by Jesus.

Atonement means to make payment for sins. Jesus, in our name and on our behalf has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. All that believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins are justified. Those that don't are the lost and are still in their sins.

Robert correctly says that atonement means to make payment for sins. (I'm as surprised as anyone.)

God is the offended party - if Jesus' atonement was accepted by God, then we are reconciled to God and at-one with Him. God will demand no further payment as He is satisfied with Jesus' atonement.

You guys still can't explain why someone for whom atonement has been made would still be "condemned already" and God's wrath still abides on them...

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert correctly says that atonement means to make payment for sins. (I'm as surprised as anyone.)

God is the offended party - if Jesus' atonement was accepted by God, then we are reconciled to God and at-one with Him. God will demand no further payment as He is satisfied with Jesus' atonement.

You guys still can't explain why someone for whom atonement has been made would still be "condemned already" and God's wrath still abides on them...

Simply because they have rejected God's great free gift of salvation. It is indeed a serious thing to reject Christ and his free gift of salvation. Maybe those that reject deserve to go to hell.

 

[way 2 go]

Robert correctly says that atonement means to make payment for sins. (I'm as surprised as anyone.)

God is the offended party - if Jesus' atonement was accepted by God, then we are reconciled to God and at-one with Him. God will demand no further payment as He is satisfied with Jesus' atonement.

You guys still can't explain why someone for whom atonement has been made would still be "condemned already" and God's wrath still abides on them...

transfer of atonement is by faith

Jesus atoned for all sin but not all sins will be paid for by Jesus.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[Epoisses]

Robert correctly says that atonement means to make payment for sins. (I'm as surprised as anyone.)

God is the offended party - if Jesus' atonement was accepted by God, then we are reconciled to God and at-one with Him. God will demand no further payment as He is satisfied with Jesus' atonement.

You guys still can't explain why someone for whom atonement has been made would still be "condemned already" and God's wrath still abides on them...

Because we do not receive what Christ accomplished until we receive it by faith. The Calvinist will always make faith out to be a gift but this is only one side of the coin. The bible presents faith or belief as a command 20 times for every time it is presented as a gift so our presentation of the gospel should reflect this. Sinners are commanded to believe in Christ as if it were all up to them. Jesus commanded faith for every miracle he performed and was very works based in his presentation of the gospel. It's just the way it is.

 

[Robert Pate]

transfer of atonement is by faith

Jesus atoned for all sin but not all sins will be paid for by Jesus.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The Bible makes it clear that all of the sins of the world have been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

 

[way 2 go]

The Bible makes it clear that all of the sins of the world have been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

1 John 2:2.

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

 

[Robert Pate]

1 John 2:2.

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

God says, "This is my only begotten Son, believe on him".

 

[Charles94]

transfer of atonement is by faith

This is simply nonsense. Where is atonement ever said to be "transferred" in scripture? If the Father accepted Jesus' sacrifice, then atonement was accomplished. It is a transaction between the Father and Son and all debts are considered paid.

Heb10:13-14...from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

The cross only accomplished something for those who are being sanctified in space and time. Until you can explain what that one offering accomplished for His enemies (and why He refused to pray for the "world" in John17:9), you are simply making up an unscriptural system.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John3:17-18 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already...

If the world means "every single person" and Jesus did not come to condemn the world, then who is condemning these unbelievers "already?" Why isn't the Father on the same page as the Son?

 

[Charles94]

The Bible makes it clear that all of the sins of the world have been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

It does NOT say that the sins are "potentially" atoned for. No matter how many times you misquote that verse, it still does not speak of "potential" atonement nor a "potential" Savior.

 

[Epoisses]

It does NOT say that the sins are "potentially" atoned for. No matter how many times you misquote that verse, it still does not speak of "potential" atonement nor a "potential" Savior.

All of the sins of the world are atoned for in Christ. Those that believe in Christ, come to repentance and are converted have all their sins blotted out. Calvinists make the conversion experience as something that Christ did on the cross which is stupid. Your beliefs are stupid! They have to be indoctrinated to be received because they are no where in the scriptures.

 

[Potter's Clay]

All of the sins of the world are atoned for in Christ. Those that believe in Christ, come to repentance and are converted have all their sins blotted out. Calvinists make the conversion experience as something that Christ did on the cross which is stupid. Your beliefs are stupid! They have to be indoctrinated to be received because they are no where in the scriptures.

Can you first establish Biblical evidence of an unregenerate person "accepting" Christ in exchange for Atonement before we call sound theology "stupid"?


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