You stated what I repeated from John 3. That isn't what others claim it says. The Lord Jesus Christ was using an analogy to help Nicodemus understand the dry bones being brought to life.
ECT The Real Most Miisunderstood Passage in the Bible John 3
- Thread starter Nick M
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You stated what I repeated from John 3. That isn't what others claim it says. The Lord Jesus Christ was using an analogy to help Nicodemus understand the dry bones being brought to life.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Earlier on another thread you correctly said that the word "born" can mean "bring forth." So can we not understand that the words "born of the Spirit" are speaking about the Spirit coming forth to a person. And here the Lord Jesus told us that is how that happens:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Didn't the Lord's words bring forth spiritual life to all who believed them?
And both Peter and James say the same thing, that it is the word of God which result in a person being born or begotten of God:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So when He's in the sky, up in the air, coming in the clouds---that doesn't count as a return to earth? Come on Jerry! What, because He doesn't touch down, it doesn't count as a return? I say, if He's in our atmosphere, that's His Second Coming.
Why would the saints put on heavenly bodies when they will meet Him in the air if their destination is not heaven?
And why have you not even addressed the points which I raised about one of the appearances of the Lord Jesus being imminent and the other not?
Because when He returns, He is bringing the new heaven to the new earth, and His kingdom will extend from heaven to earth and back again, and we will be on earth or in heaven. I figure we'll sort out the logistics once He comes.
Because it's almost 2000 years too late for His return to be immanent in the same way that the Apostles were excited for His return. They weren't wrong of course, but nobody knows but the Father, and the Apostles are not the Father, and so they didn't know either.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you think the new heaven and the new earth is being referred to here?:
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them" (Rev.20:6-9).
The "imminent" return which Christians are expecting is the one when the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Are you saying that will never happen?
Nope. He will come back and clean house in Jerusalem. From there, He will reign until He cleans house over the whole Earth; which He will do during the final rebellion.
He will then turn it back unto the Father.
I don't know. Are you saying that the new heaven and new earth won't come until after the Lord returns?
Surely not!
So called MADs tend to too easily high-five a statement that only appears to assert what they hold to.
In your above, it is obvious you hold the Body will return to the Earth.
That is about as off-base as failing to consider why the Apostle Paul to begin with.
Likewise, why A New Creature if Believing Israel will be more than adequate as His Kingdom of Priests over the Earth?
But you are married to your views, bro. It is what it is.
And before I forget; I've been meaning to ask you every so often - how's your health? Good, I hope.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
He will clean house and then begin to reign. Only those who will be born again will enter into His kingdom. Do you deny that?
Why what?
Thanks for asking. My health is much better. I am now in the process of re-hab. At least I am now able to walk again and do many things on my own again--things which I could not do for over a year.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The verses which I quoted are speaking of a thousand year reign of the Lord Jesus and the reign will be on the present earth and not on the new earth.
OK, so you're saying that His first Second coming will usher in the 1000-year reign, and then He will return again again after that? When does the Resurrection occur?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Then why does the Lord go on about the heavenly kingdom? Perhaps He was chastening Nicodemus for not understanding that the suffering servant would come before the conquering King.
John 3:11-13 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
He also mentioned earthly things that Israel had believed not (had rejected the witness of).
Originally Posted by Nick M
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
So only one taker to explain away what born of the Spirit is? As stupid as the explanation is, at least it was an effort.
The Spirit blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
That makes no sense.
Why doesn't it make sense?
The Spirit acts like X. People born of the Spirit also act like X.
Seems logical enough to me.
Hi WS, you might also notice that what Nick wrote and what was actually quoted from the YLT do not say the same things. If herein you read pneuma as Spirit, (entity), then the remainder of the statement also reads accordingly, for instance, "την φωνην αυτου" becomes "His voice" as opposed to "the sound of it", and so on and so on; and both ways of reading the passage are acceptable, (which means, as was suggested, that the debate over this is not resolved just because most English renderings follow suit with the KJV way of rendering the statement).
John 3:8 YLT
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
Like Father, like sons? Like Elder brother, like younger brethren?
Like the Heir, so with the joint-heirs? :think:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The heavenly things concernes an individual being born of God, being born again. Therefore, the citizenship of those who are born again is in heaven. Now concerning the earthly thing, beginning at John 3:3 the Lord had been speaking of an individual's regeneration but He now begins to speak of the nation of Israel's regeneration. The Lord shifts from using the second person "singular" pronoun "you" to the second person "plural":
"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:7-8).
Nicodemus still did not understand, asking, "How can these things be?"
By the Lord's reply we can understand that Nicodemus should have been aware of some truth in the OT Scriptures which spoke of a regeneration by the Spirit: "Art thou a teacher of Israel, and knoweth not these things?" (v.10).
Nicodemus should have been aware of a prophecy that speaks of the corporate regeneration of Israel. Here we see that prophecy of that regeneration which speaks of the "wind" and of the "spirit":
"Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army....And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD" (Ez.37:9-10,14).
This is the earthly thing of which the Lord Jesus spoke and Nicodemus should have been aware.
If your ideas are correct then Peter must have placed an entirely different meaning on the words "born again" than did the Lord Jesus. And if you are correct then the words 'born of the Spirit" mean something other than the words "born of God." That is because we know that people were born of God in the past when they believed the gospel.
Can you give me one verse where anyone in the Bible using the words being "born of the Spirit" to refer to anyone putting on a glorious body like the lord Jesus' glorious body?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, I am saying when he returns to the earth he will set up the 1000 year kingdom. Then when the present earth and heavens are disolved He will deliver up that kingdom to the heavenly kingdom which will exist in the new heaven and the new earth.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You make some excellent points, Jerry. The problem for me is that Paul never uses the term. Instead of saying we must be born again, he tells us we are "created" in Christ Jesus. Paul knew what Jesus said, but the closest he came to explaining it, as I see it, would be in this chapter.
1 Cor. 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Is Paul not referring to the same thing about being born here?:
"For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel" (1 Cor.4:15).
Paul was the instrument which the LORD used so that the gospel would bring forth the Spirit to those who believed:
"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake" (1 Thess.1:5).
As the Lord Jesus said, His words are spirit and they are life:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Again, if your ideas are correct then Peter must have placed an entirely different meaning on the words "born again" than did the Lord Jesus. And if you are correct then the words "born of the Spirit" mean something other than the words "born of God." That is because we know that people were born of God at the moment when they believed the gospel.
Can you give me one verse where anyone in the Bible using the words being "born of the Spirit" to refer to anyone putting on a glorious body like the Lord Jesus' glorious body?
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So the Resurrection must occur at His return then, right?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, the Scriptures speak of a resurrection which will occur when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth. But none of those verses which speak of that resurrection say anything about a time when living saints will put on glorious bodies like the body of the Lord Jesus.
In fact, the evidence suggests that those living at the time when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth will remain in their natural bodies.