ECT The Real Most Miisunderstood Passage in the Bible John 3

[Nick M]

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[Jerry Shugart]

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

So you think that the word "wind" is referring to people in their resurrected bodies?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You really need to learn to communicate.

The irony...

 

[Tambora]

Yes, those in their mortal bodies will enter the kingdom and they must be "born again" in order to enter. So their being "born again" does not have anything with entering the kingdom in a resurrected body.

Right?



You are always so gracious and we should all strive to emulate you.

Just gonna have to keep piecing the dots together.

Gonna have to make the kingdom line up with being born again.

One the one hand we have scripture that says one cannot enter the kingdom unless they are born again.
And on the other hand we have scripture that says one can be kicked out of the kingdom.

So, if only those born again can enter the kingdom, then the ones being kicked out of the kingdom would have to be born again to even be there in the first place.
Right?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

One the one hand we have scripture that says one cannot enter the kingdom unless they are born again.
And on the other hand we have scripture that says one can be kicked out of the kingdom.

So, if only those born again can enter the kingdom, then the ones being kicked out of the kingdom would have to be born again to even be there in the first place.
Right?

At the beginning of the earthly kingdom only the saved will populate it. And some of those saved will have children and those children will also populate the kingdom. Then by the time of the end of the 1000 years there will be many of those descendants who will rebel (Rev.20:7-9) and it will be those who will be destroyed.

But initially only those who are born again will populate the kingdom. There will be some people in their natural bodies in the kingdom and since they too will have to be born again then we know that being born again has nothing to do with putting on bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

 

[Danoh]

Just gonna have to keep piecing the dots together.

Gonna have to make the kingdom line up with being born again.

One the one hand we have scripture that says one cannot enter the kingdom unless they are born again.
And on the other hand we have scripture that says one can be kicked out of the kingdom.

So, if only those born again can enter the kingdom, then the ones being kicked out of the kingdom would have to be born again to even be there in the first place.
Right?

The issue is that of the wheat and the tares of Matthew 13.

Though under Rome, all Israel nevertheless comprised the children of the kingdom.

But many within said kingdom were not actually believing of Moses, John 5 and John 8.

Pew warmers, if you will, Romans 2.

When the Lord returns, He will clean house, Daniel 12; Malachi 3.

Those not in Isaac and those not born of the Spirit will "be left."

Those in Isaac and those born of the Spirit "will be taken" out of the kingdom.

Their kingdom has corruption in it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Their kingdom has corruption in it.

This is the kingdom of which you speak, the Universal Kingdom:

"Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all" (1 Chron.29:11).​

Only those who are "born again" will initially enter the earthly kingdom that will be ruled by the Lord Jesus.

 

[Eeset]

One word makes all the difference. If I tell you that you must travel to London then it may be your first trip there, or not. But if I tell you that you must travel to London again then of necessity you must have traveled there before and that could be one or more times. Again means that you are repeating a previous experience. Note that I have said nothing about your mode of transportation. You could have walked to London but perhaps the next time you take a train. In either case you arrive in London at least a second time and London should not be confused with Paris. So it is the same with birth. Being born again does not mean experiencing some form of transmutation into some other form of life. It means your physical body dies and then you are born again into a new body.

 

[glorydaz]

Let us look at the verse again and pay particular attention to what is in "bold":

"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now" (Gal.4:29).​

At the time when Paul wrote those words there were some people that he described as being "born after the flesh" who were persecuting some people that he described as being "born after the Spirit." Just as Ishmael (born after the flesh) persecuted Isaac (born after the Spirit) in the OT times in Paul's days there were some Jews (who were born after the flesh) who were persecuting the Jewish Christians (who were born after the Spirit). And yes, the birth of the Spirit which the Jewish Christians experienced was a supernatural birth that ever believer experiences. But it was not limited to just Isaac.

If your ideas are correct then how do you explain the words "even so it is now" ? Who in Paul's day would Paul be referring to as someone that was "born after the Spirit" and was being persecuted by someone "born after the flesh"?

So, "as then" he that was born after the flesh (Ishmael) persecuted the child of promise (Isaac - conceived by the power of God...after the Spirit). That is specifically talking about God's intervention in Isaac being conceived. On that, we seem to agree.

Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.​

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.​

Romans 4:13-14 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:​

So the promise was specific to righteousness coming through faith rather than the law. Paul's point was that those who kept the law for righteousness were trying to force that onto those who were accounted righteous through their faith.

What I can't see is the correlation you seem to see between what Paul writes here and spiritual birth.

I believe that when Paul speaks of the Christian being seated in heavenly places with the Lord Jesus he is referring to the fact that the believer is totally identified with Christ. Our life is hid with Christ in God (Col.3:3). What better way could Paul explain our position "in Christ" (in the Body of Christ) than that? On the other hand, at other places Paul speaks of our "walk" as Christians which is referring to our actual existence upon the earth.

:e4e:

 

[Tambora]

At the beginning of the earthly kingdom only the saved will populate it. And some of those saved will have children and those children will also populate the kingdom. Then by the time of the end of the 1000 years there will be many of those descendants who will rebel (Rev.20:7-9) and it will be those who will be destroyed.

But initially only those who are born again will populate the kingdom. There will be some people in their natural bodies in the kingdom and since they too will have to be born again then we know that being born again has nothing to do with putting on bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

Jerry,
Scripture says those in the kingdom will see and sit with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets.
How can that happen unless Abe, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets have been resurrected?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So the promise was specific to righteousness coming through faith rather than the law. Paul's point was that those who kept the law for righteousness were trying to force that onto those who were accounted righteous through their faith.

What I can't see is the correlation you seem to see between what Paul writes here and spiritual birth.

I'm not sure if you answered my question:

Who in Paul's day would Paul be referring to as someone that was "born after the Spirit" and was being persecuted by someone "born after the flesh"?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry,
Scripture says those in the kingdom will see and sit with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets.
How can that happen unless Abe, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets have been resurrected?

i never said there will not be people in resurrected bodies in the kingdom. I was talking about those who will be in their natural bodies. They will have to be born again to enter the kingdom and they will enter it without a resurrected body.

That can only mean that the words "born again" have nothing to do with putting on resurrected bodies.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not sure if you answered my questions:

Who in Paul's day would Paul be referring to as someone that was "born after the Spirit" and was being persecuted by someone "born after the flesh"?

I think you may be overlooking the fact that this is an allegory concerning two covenants....law and grace.

So, of course, Paul is referring to the Jews who are intent on putting grace believers under the bondage of the law. Paul likens it to Isaac in regards to being born, not "of the Spirit", as you'd like it to say, but after the workings of the power of God in making Sarah conceive in her old age.

Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.​

I agree all are born spiritually alive, but I don't think this text has a thing to do with that. Rather it has to do with the two covenants.

 

[glorydaz]

i never said there will not be people in resurrected bodies in the kingdom. I was talking about those who will be in their natural bodies. They will have to be born again to enter the kingdom and they will enter it without a resurrected body.

That can only mean that the words "born again" have nothing to do with putting on resurrected bodies.

How will some of them still be in their natural bodies?

 

[glorydaz]

Sure. There will be folks in the kingdom that are still mortal and have not died physically yet. And folks can still be kicked out of the kingdom when Christ returns and restores the kingdom.

What about the verse that says flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How will some of them still be in their natural bodies?

When the Lord Jesus returns to the earth to set up His kingdom there will be saved people still alive in their natural bodies. It will be them who will enter the kingdom in natural bodies.

And they must be "born again" in order to enter the kingdom so from that we can understand that being "born again" is not in regard to having a body which is like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

And again, according to Peter a person is "born again" when he believes the gospel.

 

[Nihilo]

When the Lord Jesus returns to the earth to set up His kingdom there will be saved people still alive in their natural bodies. It will be them who will enter the kingdom in natural bodies.

We'll be changed and meet them in the air though.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We'll be changed and meet them in the air though.

The living saints will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air prior to the time when he will return to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom. The catching up is described as being imminent and it can happen at any moment. That cannot be said about the Lord's return to set up His kingdom because before that can happen certain events must precede it, like the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (Mt.24:15).

 

[glorydaz]

When the Lord Jesus returns to the earth to set up His kingdom there will be saved people still alive in their natural bodies. It will be them who will enter the kingdom in natural bodies.

And they must be "born again" in order to enter the kingdom so from that we can understand that being "born again" is not in regard to having a body which is like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

And again, according to Peter a person is "born again" when he believes the gospel.

What about this?

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

 

[Nihilo]

The living saints will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air prior to the time when he will return to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom. The catching up is described as being imminent and it can happen at any moment. That cannot be said about the Lord's return to set up His kingdom because before that can happen certain events must precede it, like the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (Mt.24:15).

So you're saying that "the coming of the Lord" (1Th4:15KJV) occurs, and then there's "the Lord's return to set up His kingdom," and those are two different things happening at two different times? Why do you think that?