The Politically Correct

rexlunae

New member
The market is driven by speculators who have seen Trump as a pro-business ally. His trade policy is endangering that response. And I'm simply speaking from a position of someone who lives among larger fish investors and hears what their response to him has been, though I think that anecdotal has largely played out in the numbers. They're worried about this turn and it is impacting things. The roaring economy reminds me of the way both parties respond to economic upturns and downturns.

The big fish have a lot of vested personal interests in the tax cut. How it can be justified in the context of a lopsided economy where the rich are already taking home the lion's share while people working full time can't afford basic necessities and the deficit balloons is unclear to me.

It seems to me that you're naming the intended good on one hand and the potential abuse on the other. But that's true for most measures of government. I'd say the good remains and keep an eye on the latter.

That's all well and good as far as it goes, but it's pretty hard to view the administration as a good-faith actor when they have a pretty dramatic history of attacking people who might place a check on their authority, and who often vilify the voiceless, faceless people who serve in the civil service.

Okay. What does that have to do with the president supporting the measures? I'm asking if we only credit the person who writes a good bill? Seems like a peculiar litmus, though it serves the urge to simplify and demonize that is all the rage (either) in the body politic these days.

I just don't see a good reason to give him credit for it unless he had some real important role in crafting or advocating it. If the bar for accolades is simply to sign something that would have gone into effect if a potato had been president, then I feel like it's been lowered too far.

That's a great response to someone, anyone, who suggests the good done by the president outweighs the harm he's inflicted. It's not really an answer to someone noting flowers among the cowpaddies and that some of them were nurtured by it.

The two are of a piece. I don't think it's justifiable to celebrate a 27% drop in illegal immigration if it's achieved by a policy of cruelty toward immigrants. It's as if in another generation, someone said "Yeah, Japanese Internment is bad, but isn't it great all these wonderful homes and businesses are suddenly available for lease?" On the other hand, if we dropped illegal immigration by improving the violence and displacement that underlies it, that would be a very good thing.

It's a nightmare and a disgrace. A lot of Republicans feel that way about it, which is partly why the practice that sponsored it was ended.

Except that it wasn't ended. There seems to be a bit of a shell game going on. And much of the damage has been done.

You mean empowering it do to that, which is important and good.

Sure. Regardless, not exactly a game-changer. I also don't especially celebrate Trump's ability to walk up and down stairs, although some men would struggle at it.

So we only credit the good when it's revolutionary?

No. There's virtue in simple good governance. But good governance has been the exception rather than the rule, which makes it a bit odd to point it out in the context of trying to balance the scales.

The quote I noted wasn't his, it was Lightfoot's, the fellow who took over until Bridenstein's confirmation. Lightfoot, I think it's safe to say, has that background. He was the number two for the outgoing head of NASA.

Well, Mr. Lightfoot is a good man, but as a transitional administrator, he's largely been a placeholder in the top job, a last stopover before retirement. And he's an Obama administration holdover.

I'm not saying he's wrong, but it's the sort of statement you make when you receive a Congressional appropriation. You talk about what's in it and the good it's supposed to do, and you downplay any negatives.

Treason is a charge until it is sustained in a Court. Else you're no different than the people who call Hillary a felon because they're convinced she is...and that's also part of what got us here today.

The key difference is, treason is an act, whereas felon is a specific legal status. You cannot be a felon without a conviction from a court. Treason can be committed whether or not it's ever caught or punished. There will be a time for the acts to be judged more fully, but there's no difficulty commenting on it as a matter of the evidence that's in the public domain, and it may be that the only court that can reach a verdict in this case is the electorate in their voting booths.

Meeting with Russian emissaries as part of a campaign with the intent of getting help with the campaign is, at minimum, treason adjacent. And most of the top tier of the Trump campaign did just that. It doesn't take much of a court case to make the charge.
 
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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Meeting with Russian emissaries as part of a campaign with the intent of getting help with the campaign is, at minimum, treason adjacent. And most of the top tier of the Trump campaign did just that. It doesn't take much of a court case to make the charge.


from black's:

What is TREASON?

The offense of attempting to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance; or of betraying the state into the hands of a foreign power. Webster. In England, treason is an offense particularly directed against the person of the sovereign, and consists (1) in compassing or imagining the death of the king or queen, or their eldest son and heir; (2) in violating the king’s companion, or the king’s eldest daughter unmarried, or the wife of the king’s eldest son and heir; (3) in levying war against the king in his realm; (4) in adhering to the king’s enemies in his realm, giving to them aid and comfort in the realm or elsewhere, and (5) slaying thechancellor, treasurer, or the king’s justices of the oue bench or the other, justices in eyre, or justices of assize, and all other justices assigned to hear and determine, being in their places doing their offices. 4 Steph. Comm. 1S5-103; 4 Bl. Comm. 76-84. “Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.” U. S. Const, art 3


Russia is not our enemy
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Russia is not our enemy

I know you're not that naive.

The Trump administration accused Russia on Thursday of engineering a series of cyberattacks that targeted American and European nuclear power plants and water and electric systems, and could have sabotaged or shut power plants off at will.

United States officials and private security firms saw the attacks as a signal by Moscow that it could disrupt the West’s critical facilities in the event of a conflict.

They said the strikes accelerated in late 2015, at the same time the Russian interference in the American election was underway. The attackers had compromised some operators in North America and Europe by spring 2017, after President Trump was inaugurated.

In the following months, according to a Department of Homeland Security report issued on Thursday, Russian hackers made their way to machines with access to critical control systems at power plants that were not identified. The hackers never went so far as to sabotage or shut down the computer systems that guide the operations of the plants.

Still, new computer screenshots released by the Department of Homeland Security on Thursday made clear that Russian state hackers had the foothold they would have needed to manipulate or shut down power plants.

“We now have evidence they’re sitting on the machines, connected to industrial control infrastructure, that allow them to effectively turn the power off or effect sabotage,” said Eric Chien, a security technology director at Symantec, a digital security firm.

“From what we can see, they were there. They have the ability to shut the power off. All that’s missing is some political motivation,” Mr. Chien said.

American intelligence agencies were aware of the attacks for the past year and a half, and the Department of Homeland Security and the F.B.I. first issued urgent warnings to utility companies in June. On Thursday, both agencies offered new details as the Trump administration imposed sanctions against Russian individuals and organizations it accused of election meddling and “malicious cyberattacks.”

It was the first time the administration officially named Russia as the perpetrator of the assaults. And it marked the third time in recent months that the White House, departing from its usual reluctance to publicly reveal intelligence, blamed foreign government forces for attacks on infrastructure in the United States.

 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
sorry rex, sorry bananahead, there's no way the charges against trump or his minions meet the standard of "treason", either constitutionally of in a general legal sense
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
The big fish have a lot of vested personal interests in the tax cut.
A lot more oars in that water, including funds that impact a great many smaller fish too.

How it can be justified in the context of a lopsided economy where the rich are already taking home the lion's share while people working full time can't afford basic necessities and the deficit balloons is unclear to me.
Justification is often a bit like beauty though and the larger argument over economic systems or how we regulate them is another animal altogether.

That's all well and good as far as it goes, but it's pretty hard to view the administration as a good-faith actor when they have a pretty dramatic history of attacking people who might place a check on their authority, and who often vilify the voiceless, faceless people who serve in the civil service.
Absent an abuse, which can be addressed, it's a good and one that advances the interests of people in need of it. Meaning that advancing that good is a good in itself.

I just don't see a good reason to give him credit for it unless he had some real important role in crafting or advocating it.
I understand that, but what I'm saying is that it's an arbitrary bar. What is that role and who decides it? Either you're for a thing or you oppose it. If you do anything to advance the good then you've done good, whatever else you may do or have done.

The two are of a piece. I don't think it's justifiable to celebrate a 27% drop in illegal immigration if it's achieved by a policy of cruelty toward immigrants.
I wouldn't say that to note a good thing is to celebrate it. In fact, while I'm strongly opposed to illegal immigration, I understand the driving force for many making the attempt to enter this country and the role some employers play in that to their profit, along with the ways others benefit from the cycle of human misery... I also don't believe that anyone has established the drop to be the result of cruelty, though the measure we've spoken to certainly qualifies and has been condemned by people of either political camp, which is the likely reason for it ceasing.

Except that it wasn't ended.
Citation to source? Because what I've heard is different.

There seems to be a bit of a shell game going on. And much of the damage has been done.
I don't know how that's possible unless you're saying illegal immigrants are no longer attempting to bring their children with them.

Sure. Regardless, not exactly a game-changer.
And, again, does every good have to be, and who decides what that threshold is?

I also don't especially celebrate Trump's ability to walk up and down stairs, although some men would struggle at it.
The whole celebrating business is goofy, rex, as is the idea that physical ability is a parallel to a willful act that results in a public good.

No. There's virtue in simple good governance. But good governance has been the exception rather than the rule, which makes it a bit odd to point it out in the context of trying to balance the scales.
Who said it balanced scales? I believe in rational objection and valuation. I opposed his election. I'm not a supporter of his reelection and I've been fairly public in my criticism, to the point where a number of the right have been in my teeth beyond the rational. But none of that alters my ability to see good where good is to be found and it shouldn't.

No, I was asked a question and gave an honest answer. He surprised me, did some things I count to the good. Perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised. Perhaps anyone in that position will out of necessity, if not virtue, endorse any number of public goods and I let my personal disdain color my anticipation, but if so I'm content that when moved on the point I could see what I was disinclined to credit as a matter of personal feeling.

Well, Mr. Lightfoot is a good man, but as a transitional administrator, he's largely been a placeholder.
You should have stopped at the first part. His long and distinguished service to NASA and the nation warrants more than that sort of dismissal because his comments don't serve your inclination. And as he was outgoing he had no reason to attempt to curry a favor he didn't need, if that was within his character, which isn't a thing established by any stretch of the imagination...or is a fault that only exists at present as an example of that sort of exercise.

And he's an Obama administration holdover.
Which underscores my point. But he's been with NASA since 1989. Along with ably serving in a number of positions, he has received the Presidential Rank Award for Meritorious Executives in 2006, and the NASA Outstanding Leadership Medal, in 2007.

The key difference is, treason is an act, whereas felon is a specific legal status. You cannot be a felon without a conviction from a court. Treason can be committed whether or not it's ever caught or punished.
Thank you. I hope when I attend law school, pass the bar, practice before federal benches, on the appellate level, and find my certification for standing before the Supreme Court before...wait, I already did that.

Pushing on, a felony is a charge until it is sustained in a court of law. The same is true for treason. So when you write, as you did,

... it's hard for me to get past the treason.

you have done precisely what must and others do when they try and convict Hillary without legal process. Not the charge of treason, or even the apparent act, but with treason itself, which is tantamount to calling him a traitor no matter how you attempt to couch it.

There will be a time for the acts to be judged more fully, but there's no difficulty commenting on it as a matter of the evidence that's in the public domain, and it may be that the only court that can reach a verdict in this case is the electorate in their voting booths.
That's what they said, sort of. Or, everyone thinks they know any number of things are certain before they serve on a jury and meet the whole facts under scrutiny.

Meeting with Russian emissaries as part of a campaign with the intent of getting help with the campaign is, at minimum, treason adjacent. And most of the top tier of the Trump campaign did just that. It doesn't take much of a court case to make the charge.
It hardly takes any to make a charge. It takes a good bit more to make a conviction. :cheers:
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Oh, no? What do you call a country that attacks you?

See, that's the thing. The attack on our elections could be viewed under the "waging war" part of the constitutional definition of treason.


Only by a redefinition of the term

You think the scotus would even take that case?
 
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