ECT The new rules for the Exclusively Christian forum

[Child of God]

Apparently the Apostles, and all the Jews and Gentiles they expressed the Faith to, did not follow Paul, but worshiped God.

Can I worship God if I do not worship Paul?

 

[Lon]

We are also willing to let any other unbeliever or follower of another religion post here if they are honestly seeking an answer to a question or have constructive input to the discussion. In other words... if an atheist has a question about God and he asks it in an honest, upfront way we will gladly deal with that question without booting him out of the forum.

Said in short...
This particular forum will be dedicated to debating biblical issues without debating the legitimacy of the Bible itself.

There are plenty of other forums here at TOL for debating the legitimacy of the Bible.

And unlike morality the above rules and guidelines are very SUBJECTIVE so we ask that you honor our moderators requests if your input if out of line for this particular forum.

If you have any questions regarding these new guidelines please ask them on this thread.

This one. If it continues with banter and vitriol isn't up to TOL standards for exclusively Christian debate and discussion. The Exclusive section is open for honest debate, not drive bys or trolling to get members to take bait for what isn't genuine. "Trinitarians are murderous? " Nobody will debate? Both are vitriolic. That he has to lie he is a Muslim to get discussion? While TOL is open to 'other' in this section, I'm not sure we are purposefully open to this kind of charade in guise of debate/discussion. There doesn't seem, to me, to be a reason for it to be placed in exclusive other than baiting 'exclusive' as a challenge. I don't believe exclusive is set up this way unless he can honestly listen to answers. He is here to challenge exclusive Christians, not 'be' one. THat isn't the goal of this section of the forum. -Lon

...you have the ENTIRE rest of TheologyOnline to post in.

Several years ago we created the Exclusively Christian Forum based on the requests of our overwhelmingly Christian membership. They wanted just one forum where they could discuss Christian topics without the typical distractions. I think that's fair.

I really couldn't care less that you don't like my rules. And if you reject my rules I will simply ban you from the forum. And sorry to say but that doesn't bother me in the least.

 

[Hilltrot]

What Lon has been trying to do here has precedence. It is not the first time people associated with forums and organizations have tried to shut down conversations questioning what is considered by some to be traditional doctrine.

Greg Boyd explained the reaction to his exploration of open theism.

"My first encounter with the “backlash” you mentioned took place in the mid-90’s when John Piper launched a public crusade to get me fired from Bethel University and to have my church kicked out of the Baptist General Conference on the grounds that I was a “heretic.” There were also attempts by some to force publishers to stop publishing my books and for Christians to boycott bookstores that sold them. Hundreds of pastors signed a petition to get me fired, with only one of them taking the time to ask me what I actually believed and why I believed it."

At this time, Greg Boyd had not even half-way developed his Open Theism beliefs and his first book on the subject was in the year 2000.

In 2003, the Evangelical Theological Society voted on ejecting Pinnock and Sanders. The majority voted to eject Sanders, however not enough to succeed. They tried to eject Greg Boyd but found that his membership lapsed. In 2000, the Southern Baptist Convention modified their faith and message to say "and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures." People in these organizations are shutting down the conversation before they even begin.

Similar things have happened online. If you examine other forums, you will find that most of them either outright eject open theists or they force them into the section for atheists. This is exactly what Lon is trying to have done to me on this forum. However, from what I understand, Knight created this forum because there was not a place to truly discuss theology elsewhere.

The problem is that when one allows for a number of different people, conversations about Biblical matters continually get interrupted, by those like atheists primarily but also Muslims and others who do not believe the Bible is inspired scripture. Others disbelieve in whole books or sections of the Bible. This becomes problematic if one refers to James and the opposing side suddenly declares that the book of James isn't inspired.

As a result, many discussions devolved into arguments over the inspiration of scripture or the existence of God or one had to continually skip over people who would spam such into a thread. From what I can understand, this is why the Exclusively Christian Forum was created. Knight wanted only those who considered themselves Christian and considered the Bible to be the inspired word of God to have a place to post. He admitted that this would create a bigger tent than many - like Lon - would want. But as he said, "That is a good thing for a healthy debate".

One last thing - Lon has libeled me by implying that I don't consider the Bible to be inspired by God. I have not posted anything of the sort nor do I believe anything of the sort.

 

[fzappa13]

This thread is nearly 20 years old now and, posting under the sobriquet of "Mateo", I offered congrats for the decisions of management at the time on the first page of this thread. This thread is the result of management dealing with what I would term the "Sozo wars" that saw him and "Freak" carry on a crusade to purge all who varied from their idea of proper Christian dogma from posting in the Exclusively Christian Forum. After a few initial successes at this endeavor (alas poor Goose I knew him well) management felt compelled to codify the notion that not everybody who believed that the Word of God was true saw every jot and title in the same light and that some accommodation should be made for variances offered in good faith. In the midst of these "wars" I tried to suggest to Sozo that if you are going to segregate yourself from everyone that doesn't see things exactly as you do you will eventually find yourself a nation of one as no two people agree on all points.

At that time TOL was a vibrant community with a healthy amount of traffic as a result of this decision. It would appear that, in the interim, TOL has succumbed to the spirit that had captured Sozo and now you have one poor soul cranking out the vast majority of threads, driven by whatever his muse is, and a few Admins, Mods, and Lifetime Members conversing with each other when they find some rare point of contention that they haven't already flogged to death.

We are in the end times. Now more than ever it behooves us who believe to communicate. The Bible says that there is wisdom in the council of numbers. I tried to offer what I thought was one of the more important themes in the Bible in a post that someone in management here thought too long and erased. I can only hope that they don't do the same with the Bible and the others who offer some variation from their chosen norm.

... or you can delete this post too and be spared any further discomfiture.

 

[Right Divider]

This thread is nearly 20 years old now and, posting under the sobriquet of "Mateo", I offered congrats for the decisions of management at the time on the first page of this thread. This thread is the result of management dealing with what I would term the "Sozo wars" that saw him and "Freak" carry on a crusade to purge all who varied from their idea of proper Christian dogma from posting in the Exclusively Christian Forum. After a few initial successes at this endeavor (alas poor Goose I knew him well) management felt compelled to codify the notion that not everybody who believed that the Word of God was true saw every jot and title in the same light and that some accommodation should be made for variances offered in good faith. In the midst of these "wars" I tried to suggest to Sozo that if you are going to segregate yourself from everyone that doesn't see things exactly as you do you will eventually find yourself a nation of one as no two people agree on all points.

At that time TOL was a vibrant community with a healthy amount of traffic as a result of this decision. It would appear that, in the interim, TOL has succumbed to the spirit that had captured Sozo and now you have one poor soul cranking out the vast majority of threads, driven by whatever his muse is, and a few Admins, Mods, and Lifetime Members conversing with each other when they find some rare point of contention that they haven't already flogged to death.

We are in the end times. Now more than ever it behooves us who believe to communicate. The Bible says that there is wisdom in the council of numbers. I tried to offer what I thought was one of the more important themes in the Bible in a post that someone in management here thought too long and erased. I can only hope that they don't do the same with the Bible and the others who offer some variation from their chosen norm.

... or you can delete this post too and be spared any further discomfiture.

Unity is meaningless unless it's based on sound doctrine.

 

[Gary K]

Unity is meaningless unless it's based on sound doctrine.

What you really mean is your opinion of what is sound theology.

 

[fzappa13]

Unity is meaningless unless it's based on sound doctrine.

...and who is the arbiter of that? You? Saul of Tarsus? Saul was taught by a man named Gamaliel. I like his advice to his fellow believers concerning the fledgling faith being proffered by the apostles:

Acts 5:
34Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

35And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

36For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.

37After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Life is a classroom in which we learn. My earthly father used to say that if you're not learning then you're dead already. We learn through our interactions with each other. Metal sharpens metal. Isolating yourself from those with whom you disagree robs you of the opportunity to learn from them. That is an unfortunate choice but it is your choice. Making that choice for everyone else is undiluted hubris.

 

[JudgeRightly]

..and who is the arbiter of that?

Scripture. Which is why it's so important to rightly divide the word.

 

[Idolater]

... Life is a classroom in which we learn. My earthly father used to say that if you're not learning then you're dead already. We learn through our interactions with each other. Metal sharpens metal. Isolating yourself from those with whom you disagree robs you of the opportunity to learn from them. That is an unfortunate choice but it is your choice. Making that choice for everyone else is undiluted hubris.

When you're right, you're right. You can't learn from somebody who's not right when you're right. There's nothing to learn. That's where RD's at. I can't stand RD, I've had him on ignore for something like the better part of a year by now, only occasionally "sneaking a peak" so to speak, at his content; but I know where he's at. He's right. In his own eyes.

I am too. I know the type.

btw when's @7djengo7 temp ban up? It seemed like a loooong temp ban, last time I checked. We need him back.

 

[fzappa13]

Scripture. Which is why it's so important to rightly divide the word.

I would hasten to agree. My post that was deleted was comprised of 95 % scripture. At what point do we go from having a problem with what someone has said to having a problem with scripture. As I have often said, most people's Bible would comfortably fit in a manila folder. It's an unfortunate fact that most of us have come to our understanding of the Bible through the efforts of others. Pre chewed food as it were. Most of us are divided by competing doctrines supported by a few "proof texts" developed by different individuals in the ensuing years after the death of Jesus. Paul told us this would happen after his death and so it has come to pass. By way of analogy you can look at these competing doctrines as colored glasses through which we view the Bible. They will filter out that which is inconsistent with any given doctrine. Unless and until our love of the truth is sufficient to give us the courage to take off these glasses great swaths of the Bible will forever remain a mystery to be hurriedly skipped over on the way to preferred passages. To "rightly divide" the Word one must first embrace the Word ... all of it. Even those passages orphaned by any given doctrine.

 

[Idolater]

I would hasten to agree. My post that was deleted was comprised of 95 % scripture. At what point do we go from having a problem with what someone has said to having a problem with scripture. As I have often said, most people's Bible would comfortably fit in a manila folder. It's an unfortunate fact that most of us have come to our understanding of the Bible through the efforts of others. Pre chewed food as it were. Most of us are divided by competing doctrines supported by a few "proof texts" developed by different individuals in the ensuing years after the death of Jesus. Paul told us this would happen after his death and so it has come to pass. By way of analogy you can look at these competing doctrines as colored glasses through which we view the Bible. They will filter out that which is inconsistent with any given doctrine. Unless and until our love of the truth is sufficient to give us the courage to take off these glasses great swaths of the Bible will forever remain a mystery to be hurriedly skipped over on the way to preferred passages. To "rightly divide" the Word one must first embrace the Word ... all of it. Even those passages orphaned by any given doctrine.

But there's a difference between saying, "This part of the Bible's not true," and saying, "That Scripture doesn't mean what you think it means." If we accept the absolute authority of the Bible, that is what I understand the condition we need to meet to participate in this (exclusively Christian) forum.

 

[fzappa13]

When you're right, you're right. You can't learn from somebody who's not right when you're right. There's nothing to learn. That's where RD's at. I can't stand RD, I've had him on ignore for something like the better part of a year by now, only occasionally "sneaking a peak" so to speak, at his content; but I know where he's at. He's right. In his own eyes.

I am too. I know the type.

btw when's @7djengo7 temp ban up? It seemed like a loooong temp ban, last time I checked. We need him back.

Being self aware is a necessary first step in the learning process. That's why pain is such a good teacher. It makes you self aware very quickly. If you can learn to be self aware of your own volition you can often avoid the necessity of physical/emotional pain.

 

[fzappa13]

But there's a difference between saying, "This part of the Bible's not true," and saying, "That Scripture doesn't mean what you think it means." If we accept the absolute authority of the Bible, that is what I understand the condition we need to meet to participate in this (exclusively Christian) forum.

Yes, it's an apparent dichotomy that we can all agree that the Word of God is true and have such variances among us as to what it says. I liken the word of God to a Rubik's cube. We get one side of the thing one color and get happy with our accomplishment and then someone comes along and points out that the others side aren't lined up. We can either tell them to bugger off or we can get back to work. That is why it is so valuable to have others of varying opinions to test us. There is wisdom in the council of numbers and we need that now more than ever.

 

[Idolater]

Being self aware is a necessary first step in the learning process. That's why pain is such a good teacher. It makes you self aware very quickly. If you can learn to be self aware of your own volition you can often avoid the necessity of physical/emotional pain.

Physical pain may not be easily ignored, but emotional pain surely is. That's why we have such an enormous suicide problem rn in the World. Everybody's ignoring their emotional pain as hard as they can, right up to thinking it's a reasonable idea to go shoot up a school and die in a hail of police bullets. That's never reasonable. That's always wrong. But if you ignore emotional pain it distorts your vision.

 

[Idolater]

Yes, it's an apparent dichotomy that we can all agree that the Word of God is true and have such variances among us as to what it says. I liken the word of God to a Rubik's cube. We get one side of the thing one color and get happy with our accomplishment and then someone comes along and points out that the others side aren't lined up. We can either tell them to bugger off or we can get back to work. That is why it is so valuable to have others of varying opinions to test us. There is wisdom in the council of numbers and we need that now more than ever.

Right, but mainly what happens on TOL and all social media is the people say, "That side of the Rubick's cube looks fine to me," like the dog in the meme sitting in the burning room, "This is fine." Even though it's obviously on fire and he better get out of there. People just refuse.

 

[fzappa13]

Physical pain may not be easily ignored, but emotional pain surely is. That's why we have such an enormous suicide problem rn in the World. Everybody's ignoring their emotional pain as hard as they can, right up to thinking it's a reasonable idea to go shoot up a school and die in a hail of police bullets. That's never reasonable. That's always wrong. But if you ignore emotional pain it distorts your vision.

Physical wounds heal much more quickly than emotional wounds. For an emotional wound to heal one must learn to forgive and that's much easier for some than others. We can spend days and months and years replaying the wrong done to us and in so doing we fill a bag that gets harder and harder to carry. Letting that bag go is liberating but it is difficult for many to do because of the time and effort they've invested in filling it up. There is also the fact that we are creatures of habit. That's all well and good as long as our habits are good. You can get in a rut replaying an offence in your head and getting out of that rut can be difficult but forgiveness is the key. I think that unforgiveness and an inability to get out of this mental rut is what drives so many to drugs. They see it as the only way to escape this cycle.

 

[Right Divider]

...and who is the arbiter of that?

It's funny that you take such offense to such a simple and obviously true statement.

You?

No, not me. You? Clearly, not you!

Saul of Tarsus? Saul was taught by a man named Gamaliel.

Why do you choose to use his Hebrew name? We mostly know him by his Roman name, Paul. Paul is the name that he uses to sign all of his epistles.

I like his advice to his fellow believers concerning the fledgling faith being proffered by the apostles:

Acts 5:
34Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

35And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

36For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.

37After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

I wonder what that has to do with the general idea of uniting around sound doctrine.

Life is a classroom in which we learn. My earthly father used to say that if you're not learning then you're dead already.

I've learned many things, including how to understand the scripture properly.

We learn through our interactions with each other.

Duh. But that's not the only way.

Metal sharpens metal.

Indeed.

Isolating yourself from those with whom you disagree robs you of the opportunity to learn from them.

By all means, hang around with unbelievers and heathens. You can "learn from them".

That is an unfortunate choice but it is your choice.

Hilarious false accusations.

Making that choice for everyone else is undiluted hubris.

What an incredible hypocrite you are.

I don't claim to make "everyone's choice" for them.

I let God be the decider and you should to. I make arguments for my understanding of the scripture based on sound reason and you should too. That is how metal sharpens metal.

So get down off your high horse. Nobody is impressed.

 

[Right Divider]

He's right. In his own eyes.

What an incredible hypocrite you are!

 

[fzappa13]

Right, but mainly what happens on TOL and all social media is the people say, "That side of the Rubick's cube looks fine to me," like the dog in the meme sitting in the burning room, "This is fine." Even though it's obviously on fire and he better get out of there. People just refuse.

That's probably the primary reason so many of us quit posting here. It became increasingly pointless. And, please understand, I'm not singling out TOL. All the Christian forum's fell into the same trap. I was so excited by the advent of the internet and forums for the teaching/learning opportunity they presented. The first few years there were some really interesting exchanges and I probably spent way to much time on the computer as a result. As things deteriorated I decided that, both online and off, I was going to refrain from bothering people about the Word of God until such time as current events made it obvious that the days the Bibles speaks of were coming to pass and there would be no more argument about that fact. We have arrived at the last days. The 4 horsemen ride as we speak. If we are to have any hope that this Word will help us through this we have to embrace it in it's entirety or it will be of no help to us.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, it's an apparent dichotomy that we can all agree that the Word of God is true and have such variances among us as to what it says. I liken the word of God to a Rubik's cube. We get one side of the thing one color and get happy with our accomplishment and then someone comes along and points out that the others side aren't lined up. We can either tell them to bugger off or we can get back to work. That is why it is so valuable to have others of varying opinions to test us. There is wisdom in the council of numbers and we need that now more than ever.

So just how do you "test" us?