Sorry.
I'm walking into an argument I have very little knowledge of.
Can you explain what DanP said that you disagree so much about?
THE MYSTERY KEPT SECRET
- Thread starter DougE
- Start date
Sorry.
I'm walking into an argument I have very little knowledge of.
Can you explain what DanP said that you disagree so much about?
Yes. The Bible contradicts itself but not necessarily on anything of major importance.
Honestly though, I don't know what you people are talking about. Obviously, the current nation of Israel is not what is being discussed in the Bible. However, faithful Jews prior to the incarnation of Jesus are included in his salvation and resurrection. So, what are you'all talking about?
Except it doesn't.
It says things that are contradictory if you try to mash everything together to form your doctrine.
But when what the Bible says is taken in context, it doesn't contradict itself.
Recall what I said above:
| When you ignore the laws of logic, your position becomes untenable. You have just done so. They're called the law of identity, the law of the excluded middle, and the law of non-contradiction. Two things that contradict each other cannot both be true at the same time and/or in the same way. |
That DOES NOT MEAN, however, that two contradictory things cannot be true at different times and/or different ways. In fact, the laws of logic allow for that.
There are many important things that when you try to mash everything together, they contradict one another, such as Romans 4:5 and James 2:24 being the complete antithesis to each other.
However, when you take what the Bible says in the context of what was said, you end up with the Bible not contradicting itself at all.
Truth is non-contradictory.
The Bible is true, and so when the Bible appears to contradict itself, one should examine whether that's an effect of his paradigm of beliefs, rather than just assuming it must be a contradiction.
Beloved57 is what you call a "hyper-calvinist."
Myself, Right Divider, DougE, and Dan P are what you call Dispensationalists, with Me and RD being specifically "Mid-Acts" Dispensationalists (MAD)
We're discussing whether the Body of Christ (Christians) is what used to be the nation of Israel, the "Elect Lady" (which is what B57 would have us believe).
The MAD position is that the remnant of Israel, also known as believing Israel, the ones who converted as a result of Jesus' ministry and the ministry of the Twelve after His ascension is NOT the Body of Christ, which was started by God with Paul while on his way to Damascus (which is in Acts 9, "mid-Acts").
beloved57
Well-known member
I don't care to
Hi and you are just adding to scripture BUT I haves verses , like Gal 3:28 and Col 3:11 that "in Christ " there are NO Jews or Gentiles , CAN YOU SEE THAT ?
We are a NEW CREATION .
dan p
beloved57
Well-known member
Yup...world didnt know Yahushua...Peter also preached Holy Spirit given to those that OBEY Acts 5:32 and WHOEVER believes in Him will receive remission of sins Acts 10:43 and that Yah made NO DISTINCTION between believing Jews and believing Gentiles as they were well obeying the SAME WAY...Acts 15:9 Yah saw BOTH people’s hearts circumcised and the “inner Jew” as Paul later put it
Peter concluded “through the grace of Yahushua we (Jews) shall be saved in the SAME MANNER as they (Gentiles)” Acts 15:11
You know by faith...and now in ONE revealed as Yahushua...
I notice and know why you omitted the rest of verse 26...ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT of the everlasting Yah for OBEDIENCE tot he faith...WHICH FAITH IS THAT? Buddhism? Hindu? Muslim? Catholic? Protestant? Hint: Everlasting Yah BECAUSE I CHANGE NOT
hmmm wonder what mystery you will ADD to the revelations here...
yup Yahushua was the Hope of Israel...to ALL the world...
hmmm...so that Abraham believed and it was credited as righteousness to him was NOT known in the OT...have you even read Heb 11 the OT for DUMMIES where all those were by FAITH...not works...
there it is but without an English name
...now wait for it....
BOOM!!! THERE IT IS...I KNEW IT...LOL...not for me right? “I want no demand the promise” which only by HIS Law is dispensed...His death merely signed and sealed the covenant its Father’s Law as guarantee...that is the mystery a NEW SIGNATURE on the contract...HIS
of course you cherry pick and omit the WORD and leave poor mishandled Paul hanging...FINISH HIS THOUGHT...verse 30 SINCE one God who will justify the cut ones BY faith...and the uncut THROUGH faith...
And of course best for last which your ignores if not outright rejects as NOT FOR ME
verse 31 “Do we then make void the law through faith?” YES YES YES thunders your world...He abolished it!! It claims...and now the latest rebellion...”NOT FOR ME”...
What does Paul conclude? “On the contrary we ESTABLISH THE LAW” the law not a law or a new law or a Son’s revised new and improved version...but THE LAW...
What Law do you establish? DO WHAT THOU WHILST? Cuz we are under grace or something...you screech louder than DEFUND THE POLICE!!! LOL
where our debt and handwritten tickets against us were nailed NOT THE LAW
other ages knew it was by faith...and to the gentiles despite how HARD Jews tried to keep it for themselves...
yes Yahushua the begotten Son is the Head of AN OBEDIENT BODY...not even a biological body could survive a rebellion against its head...”NOT FOR ME”...LOL
But your body insists what the Head commands and desires is “NOT FOR ME”...you’re NOT holding fast to the Head Col 2:19
IF indeed you continue in the faith grounded and steadfast Col 2:23
what faith is that? Buddhism? Hindu? Muslim...or in the faith He had...you know the Head...and asked us to do follow Love AS HE DID...
keeping and doing His Father’s will...not just hearers but DOERS...AS He did...the Head...
the Testator of the NEW COVENANT signing it with His and sealing it with His death...NOW in force...
is WHY...ONE BODY has faith in and is obedient to the Head its ways...
as it was when the ekklesia was in the OT wilderness having faith in and OBEDIENT to...(both native and foreigner)...a mystery NOW REVEALED...Yahushua...HalleluYah
go establish His Law...on earth as it is in heaven...His will be done...not yours your “not dispensed to me” juvenile deliquency...
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Lon
Well-known member
Thank you. I'd been looking for a short description of what exactly the 'mystery' part was. :e4e:
Lon
Well-known member
Basically, between Covenant Theology/Replacement Theology (one or the other, not sure) and Mid Acts Dispensational views. It is stark in that Covenant sees Christianity being "Israel" now. Replacement Theology believes God has no future plans for Israel as a nation, and Mid Acts believes that God works very differently than He has before with Gentiles and still has a future plan for national Israel.
(May need correction, but I believe this is the gist). -Lon
Thanks.
I think I'm leaning towards replacement theology in this case. The New Testament makes it abundantly clear to me that Israel as a nation is no longer God's focus.
However, I do currently support the current secular nation of Israel against its various foes. My political and religious views are separate on this point.
I pray you study and pray to strengthen a thought to a conviction...
The church replacing the branches cut off for unbelief was the ONLY thinking of the church until Scofield and Darby began their Jesuit Zionist commentary...this heresy was openly supported by V2’s reversal on the necessity of the Jew to be proselytized for Christ...since the 1960s Rome has allowed for the Jew to have “their own way to Heaven” and Protestant Zionists have been all too eager to genuflect to the Jew making VOID His work on the cross to make ONE NEW MAN of the TWO both Jew and goyim...making peace...but instead war and oppression...
From the first century antisemitic desires divorced the Church from all things “Jewish” establishing another gospel another christ...this Christian Zionism is this error taken to its “logical end”...of those seeking the Promise and rejecting the faith its Law...hearing and NOT doing...believing and NOT obeying...the final fruit of a branch NOT grafted but bearing olives from fig and figs from grapevine...
indeed and as the entire OT is clear of the conspiracy found in Judah Jer 11:9 to not only destroy Israel during Rehoboam’s time but continue to be a rebellious wife “PUT AWAY”...
And when the Husband came to win back this divorced wife for her adultery SHE KILLED HIM...now ALL marital vows were kept “until death do us part” and made void forever...
resurrected this Husband now seeks a NEW BRIDE faithful and obedient to HIM HIS WAYS...and NOT her own...as His taste in women has not changed...
not even all Jews support this modern political apostate but still wait the return of the Messiah to reestablish Israel...but these modern Zionist Jews claim themselves to be the messiah their father still seeking to EXALT HIS THRONE...saying I would be like the most High...”Jews who say they are Jews but are not Jews”...certainly not circumcised in their heart...just like when Jer 9:26
sadly how many billions of monies are directed away from us to them...how many lives are lost in a crusade to a land no longer holy...as covenants are CONDITIONAL
even Jews know Christian Zionist support is NOT as these Christians merely seek to have 2/3 of Jews killed and the final 1/3 “forced” to have a “come to Jesus moment” during the apocalypse from which they are RAPTURED...but Jews accept the money and blood shedding support anyway...to reign the world from Jerusalem for 1000 years or something...
Jews are even concerned when Rome will come to lay claim to its Jerusalem and reestablish itself as Global Head after the designed collapse of Israel...
But HalleluYah...this is how Revelations is playing out...
The church replacing the branches cut off for unbelief was the ONLY thinking of the church until Scofield and Darby began their Jesuit Zionist commentary...this heresy was openly supported by V2’s reversal on the necessity of the Jew to be proselytized for Christ. quote from Clefty
Could you please how saying Israel has been set aside according to scripture in Romans 11:11 but, will be restored is antisemetic
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I also notice you/yours keep missing Romans 3:28 “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.” ...that is exactly what the Judiazers insist...be circumcised in order to be saved...be justified by works...
And this is exactly NOT what is taught in the OT...they were saved from Egypt even kept Sabbath BEFORE the Law was given...not to earn being saved but because they already were...
It was because of His love for their fathers NOT for anything they DID or did NOT do...that He chose their descendants to save them Deut 4:37 it was by faith
and then the works were added AFTER being saved verse 40 “You shall therefore keep His statutes and His commandments...”
Faith first then works befitting repentance as Paul affirmed Acts 26:20 AND ALSO FOR GENTILES
Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also. Since there is ONE God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Romans 3:29-30
But you claim two separate peoples in the kingdom...one set that wanted to OBEY and the other that claimed it wasnt for them...
So this ONE God has how many ways into His kingdom?
Rejecting Jews their way
Believing Jews another way
Goyim still another way...
Paul concludes his thought Verse 31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly NOT on the contrary we ESTABLISH the law”
So which law do you /yours establish? “Do my Fahter’s will” or “NOT dispensed to us”?
You ignore that it already was by FAITH in the OT as Paul makes clear Romans 4:3 but even Abraham OBEYED after...
not once did he claim “NOT FOR ME” when he could have since he was asked to do something the pagan gods demanded: child sacrifice...still he obeyed...
here too...how can you ignore verses in the greeting verse 2 “To the church” singular called to be saints with ALL who in EVERY place call on the name of Yahushua OUR Lord both theirs AND ours”...you really think those that call on His name continued in their own previous path “oh NOT FOR ME is His way His lifestyle His faith walk...I just hear and believe I need NOT do AS He did”?
Verse 4-8 Why is Paul so thankful He will present them BLAMELESS in the day of OUR Lord Yahushua? Verse 9 these Yah called into fellowship of His Son...and by that you expect a fellowship NOT as He lived and loved and served? Contrary to the obedient holy clean faith He lived as an example for ANY who Love Him to follow?
What does Paul PLEAD? Verse 10 That you all speak the same thing and that there be NO division among you but that you be PERFECLTY JOINED TOGETHER IN THE SAME MIND AND SAME JUDGEMENT of course I mean you cant have some say one thing is clean and the other say something else one divided over this day or that day as Holy...but PERFECTLY JOINED you know Jew and Greek in the same CHRIST MIND and same JUDGEMENTS of “now that we have faith and justified THIS IS HOW WE LIVE TO REPRESENT HIM”
Verse 13 IS Christ divided? Yours claims EXACTLY that...between some who do...those that claim they don’t need to...
tof course yes the message of the cross...to the Jew a stumbling block (as if this Yahushua was actually resurrected and messiah) and to the Greek foolishness (why all that Jewish foolishness when we have our own gods)
but look how Paul JOINS these two again through Yahushua verse 24:
but to those who are called, BOTH Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of Yah and the wisdom of Yah.
Paul ends this chapter with Jeremiah 9:23-24 and yours is fortunate he pulled his punches as Jeremiah here concludes the circumcised and the uncircumcised will ALL be judged whether or not they are circumcised of the heart. Jer 9:25-26
Curious how your concern is the possibility of antisemitism and NOT the breaking of His Law the setting aside of it claiming it’s “just for Jews”...
Of course you don't, for the same reason that you either don't respond to me or have me on ignore, because you know that if you explain your position, it opens it up to critique, which has the possibility of then being shown to be wrong, which you are deathly afraid of.
There are no verses that state, verbatim, "Israel is not the Body of Christ," just as there are no verses that state, verbatim, "Israel is the Body of Christ."
Why do you require a standard for positions other than your own that cannot be upheld by your own position? It's called hypocrisy, B57.
What we do have are verses that, when taken in context, show that Israel CANNOT be the Body of Christ, simply because that isn't how the Bible is written, but which can, by the calvinist, be twisted to make it seem like they DO say that Israel is the Body of Christ.
The problem is that when the calvinist does so, you effectively lose the gospel message altogether.
Even MADs believe that is currently true.
The difference is that Replacement Theology says that God will never return to working with Israel, that they are cut off for good.
The problem with that is that Paul states explicitly in Romans that God WILL return to working with them at a later time, and that their rejection isn't final.
The church replacing the branches cut off for unbelief was the ONLY thinking of the church until Scofield and Darby began their Jesuit Zionist commentary...this heresy was openly supported by V2’s reversal on the necessity of the Jew to be proselytized for Christ. quote from Clefty quote from Clefty
My question is then what is "Jesuit Zionist commentary".?
Romans 9:4 says the covenants and the law was for Israel