ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[George Affleck]

Right you are. I also find it interesting that we see no mention of Adam's sin being passed down to all his descendants when God cursed Adam in the garden. I see he would toil by the sweat of his brow and would return to the dust, but not one single mention of any curse being passed down to his offspring. Then, too, throughout the OT, no one blames Adam for having saddled them with any inherited sin.

I also find it interesting that God seems disappointed, and it grieved Him how men had managed to corrupt themselves. Had they inherited a sinful nature from Adam, it seems He would have expected just that.

Gen. 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.​

Genesis links subsequent generations and proclivity with the creation and experience of Adam and Eve. It establishes them as prototypical to our experience. There are no offspring until after the Fall and Eve is called the "mother of all living".

Our understanding of how DNA works, and the cumulative effects of errors in our basic code, should enhance our understanding of how every generation is foundationally linked to our first parents. If the Fall had not occurred, we would still be in the "it was very good" condition pronounced by God.

We see the connection to future generations in that Gen 2:23KJV is directly linked with Gen 2:24KJV for example.

It is to be understood that the history of the first two created is the basis for the Gospel from Gen 3:15KJV. Post Fall, a declaration that war will now exist between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent is pronounced. I believe this is one of the generational connections you are suggesting are missing. It is specifically tied to "seed"; however we understand that. I see the two seeds as Jesus describes the wheat and the tares or the sheep and the goats. This is why when we come to Christ we need to be "born again", completely changed, and not just mildly convinced.

Following that is Gen 3:16KJV which is the "Boy's Club" eisegetical dream verse. How much damage has been done by not recognizing that this depicts how bad its going to be between unregenerate spouses because the perfect mold is now damaged? Far too many think this verse tells us how God wants marriage to be organized.
Because of sin, women will not have direct access to God (until born again) but will desperately, and unsuccessfully, try to find meaning by desiring defective, fallen men to supply that which they don't have. And men (until born again) will mistakenly think that ruling over women is a territorial right and will subjugate and demean the woman and the institution of marriage. Jesus tells us to go back to "the beginning", before the Fall, if we want to understand a right relationship between man and woman. Matt 19:8KJV

The sweat of Adam's brow not only indicates his difficulty, but points to how all nature has been turned against him. Thorns and thistles now resist him and his descendants.

I see Genesis as connecting these dots quite well and preparing us to understand Paul's words. Satan did not just have his eyes on the two in the garden. He did not destroy the progenitorial aspect of the mold because he wanted billions of future bond-servants; his own descendants. His concentration was on damaging the ability of the first two humans to recognize they were made in God's image and they should listen to Him, knowing that their progeny would be like them.

 

[Interplanner]

The word spirit in that passage lacks the definite article. Thus in keeping with Paul and his teachings about the flesh vs the spirit it is our newborn human spirit that we are to be walking in. Something glorybabze didn't learn in Sunday school.


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There is no newborn human spirit without the Spirit there. so it may as well be cap S. But more to the point, in these passages 'flesh' meant what a person was in Judaism, Spirit--in Christ. He would know. Otherwise you will start confusing flesh with body and enjoyment and sex.

 

[Nick M]

Same gospel to two different types of people.

To whom did Peter go with the same message, and to whom did Paul go to with the same message?

 

[Shasta]

Paul knew that it was the LORD who would do the preserving:

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingom: to whom be glory for ever and ever" (2 Tim.4:18).​

So you believe a person can no longer choose to turn away from God after they are saved? Sounds like your have abandoned free will and replaced it with the Reformed doctrine of irresistible grace (which is where conditional eternal security comes from). All the warnings to believers throughout the NT are intended to motivate them to continue in the faith simply because we are not forced to continue.

In this verse, Paul is looking to the Lord for deliverance from evil works by which he probably meant works perpetrated on him by evil people, since it is hard to imagine Paul anticipated backsliding. He is also looking to God to protect and preserve him perhaps through trials and testing. Still, is Paul saying he thought God would preserve him unconditionally no matter what he did; even if he decided to, say, depart from the faith? That is doubtful. Whatever specifics he was alluding to, Paul was a man who was focused upon God. He was not someone who had lost focus on Christ and was indulging in fleshly appetites. His heart was fixed on Christ and he sincerely wanted to be preserved. A person in this condition receives comfort and encouragement and does not need a warning.

Only a person who continues "sowing to please the Spirit" will reap the reward of eternal life when the harvest comes (Galatians 6:7)

Sowing to the Spirit is not a single act. The Greek indicates that it is an ongoing habit of life. God will preserve all those who look to him to be preserved. Lapsed believers, on the other hand, receive warnings rather than reassurances. You are using one set of scriptures as proof texts while ignoring the balance of truth presented by the whole counsel of scripture.

There are two aspects to eternal life - one which is present tense. The fact that the life itself is eternal does not make the gift mine eternally. Eternality is a property of the life that is Christ's. I hold it at the present time because I believe and continue to believe. In the judgement, this promise is realized as long as I have maintained a relationship of faith, love and obedience with Him throughout my life. Your idea of free grace very often leads to antinomianism which the scriptures reject.

 

[God's Truth]

To whom did Peter go with the same message, and to whom did Paul go to with the same message?

Peter was the first to go to Gentiles. Paul went first to Jews. They decided that it would be best if he, Paul, went far away to the Gentiles because the Jews thought Paul was just trying to trick them into saying they believe in Jesus so that he can throw them in prison.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When you see me or another born again poster behaving badly then that's the sign that I'm not operating in and from my newborn human spirit but from the flesh.

How do you spot a "born again poster"? Or what would indicate that someone is not born again?

 

[God's Truth]

Paul knew that it was the LORD who would do the preserving:

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingom: to whom be glory for ever and ever" (2 Tim.4:18).​

God does not make anyone obey and believe in Him.

He lives in our heart which is love, and that compels us to keep believing and obeying, BUT that does NOT mean the troubles of the world and sin cannot overtake a person who is not careful. We are warned for a reason.

 

[God's Truth]

When you see me or another born again poster behaving badly then that's the sign that I'm not operating in and from my newborn human spirit but from the flesh.


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I have never ever seen you act, post, speak as someone in the Spirit, ever.

What overflows from you is what is in your heart, and you are not a good person. You constantly look to hurt and insult.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Our understanding of how DNA works, and the cumulative effects of errors in our basic code, should enhance our understanding of how every generation is foundationally linked to our first parents.

Is there a gene called "sin" which the genetic scientists recognize which travels from the parents to the children?

 

[God's Truth]

Romans 8:9 and Php. 1:19 is small s? You need to clearify.

Some translations do not properly use a capital 'S' when they should when they are speaking of the Spirit of Jesus. Jesus' Spirit should never be a small 's', for the Man Jesus has the Spirit of God as his Spirit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have never ever seen you act, post, speak as someone in the Spirit, ever.

intojoy certainly exhibits a clear understanding of the gospel which saves, the gospel of grace.

Unlike others on this forum!

 

[God's Truth]

Is there a gene called "sin" which the genetic scientists recognize which travels from the parents to the children?

There are some people who believe that since Jesus had an earthly mother, this proves sin comes from the father's side. However, since Adam sinned and had no earthly father, this belief however enticing could not be true.

 

[God's Truth]

intojoy certainly exhibits a clear understanding of the gospel which saves, the gospel of grace.

Unlike others on this forum!

You just showed that you do not have understanding, as those in the Spirit have.

You show no concern over a person who consistently insults, because you are one who does that too.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you believe a person can no longer choose to turn away from God after they are saved?

I just believe what the Lord Jesus says about this subject. He says that those who believe have eternal life (Jn.5:24) and He also says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Your idea of free grace very often leads to antinomianism which the scriptures reject.

If its not free then how much does it cost those to whom it justifies?

 

[God's Truth]

I just believe what the Lord Jesus says about this subject. He says that those who believe have eternal life (Jn.5:24) and He also says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Jesus also WARNS us. Why do you pick scriptures to believe and throw out the rest?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There are some people who believe that since Jesus had an earthly mother, this proves sin comes from the father's side. However, since Adam sinned and had no earthly father, this belief however enticing could not be true.

Yes, and there are some people who stll believe that the earth is flat!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus also WARNS us. Why do you pick scriptures to believe and throw out the rest?

I believe what the Lord Jesus said. He said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish.

But you say that they can!

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, and there are some people who stll believe that the earth is flat!

So what.

 

[God's Truth]

I believe what the lord Jesus said. He said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish.

But you say that they can!

Jesus is the Word who says they can.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So what.

It just proves that you are not the only delusional one on this forum!