turbosixx
New member
I left a church for just that.
"Well, Paul didn't really mean..."
Smart move.
It's simple, Paul meant what he said as did all the other inspired writers.
I left a church for just that.
"Well, Paul didn't really mean..."
Smart move.
It's simple, Paul meant what he said as did all the other inspired writers.
But, please understand that there are many dozens of warning verses,
"It means what it says" is not as useful as you might think. Let's take a line from Ps 23 for ex. You grew up with it: "He leads me beside still waters." It sounds like sheep don't like moving water and that still water is good. In usual English we would normally then say, '...to still waters.'
But the meaning is the opposite. In a desert setting, still water is brackish at best and may be toxic. 'Beside' meant past. So now we have a shepherd who protects his assets by moving them along past poison.
It means what it says once you have studied it well.
Most of the NT was written to detangle the Gospel from Judaism. 2nd, the NT uses the OT 2500 times in quotes and allusions. Yet people still go directly to the OT and say 'it means what it says.' The 2500 are what Jesus taught in the 40 day 'seminar' between the Res and Pentecost.
ZacharyB has no word of truth to rightly divide...Many years ago, I was warned about this passage by my pastor …
Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name,
cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Benjamin Baruch (one of God’s last-days prophets/watchmen) says:
“Our nation is full of professing Christians, who assume they will go to heaven,
yet the Lord declares (see above) that many on that day will be cast out!
These poor souls were converted, and some had even done miracles in His name,
yet they never knew Him. Dear reader, ask the Lord to test your heart.
Do you know Him? Does His word abide in you? Are you abiding in Him?
Do not trust in the mere confession of faith, but see if you have the love of
the Father in your heart and the evidence of salvation, which is the desire
to please and obey Him as Lord … I asked the Lord what was different
about the many that did not know Him, but only knew His name.
He answered me saying,
“These are they who have never received of my character, and were never
changed by my words, and have never learned to walk in my ways.
To them I will say, ‘Lo Ammi. You are not my people.’ “
Quite a good example of this is seen here …
John 15:
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away,
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him,
bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love,
just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
I see verse 21 below as a parallel passage to verse 10 above.
We are required to follow Jesus’ example of obeying God’s commandments,
which is perhaps the biggest part of overcoming, i.e. of being an overcomer.
Revelation 21:
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
I realize you (of the Laodicean church, Rev 3) hate all of these troubling NT
passages that warn about loss of salvation. And I realize that you prefer
Scriptures such as John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8, and etc.
But, please understand that there are many dozens of warning verses,
and the Lord insists that your co-operation with the Holy Spirit and
your obedience to His commands are required for salvation!
I agree. If one sees contradictions or has to say “it’s not saying what it appears to say” then there’s a problem.
No, he's not. Romans 3:23 KJVAre you an overcomer Zach ?
Exactly, that's what MAD does, rightly divide. When two scriptures contradict we study why. That's why we know there are different pieces of good news, different audiences.Acts 10:35 KJV
vs. Titus 3:5 KJV
Both mean exactly what they say and yet say the opposite. Now what?
Many years ago, I was warned about this passage by my pastor …
Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name,
cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Benjamin Baruch (one of God’s last-days prophets/watchmen) says:
“Our nation is full of professing Christians, who assume they will go to heaven,
yet the Lord declares (see above) that many on that day will be cast out!
These poor souls were converted, and some had even done miracles in His name,
yet they never knew Him. Dear reader, ask the Lord to test your heart.
Do you know Him? Does His word abide in you? Are you abiding in Him?
Do not trust in the mere confession of faith, but see if you have the love of
the Father in your heart and the evidence of salvation, which is the desire
to please and obey Him as Lord … I asked the Lord what was different
about the many that did not know Him, but only knew His name.
He answered me saying,
“These are they who have never received of my character, and were never
changed by my words, and have never learned to walk in my ways.
To them I will say, ‘Lo Ammi. You are not my people.’ “
Quite a good example of this is seen here …
John 15:
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away,
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him,
bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love,
just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
I see verse 21 below as a parallel passage to verse 10 above.
We are required to follow Jesus’ example of obeying God’s commandments,
which is perhaps the biggest part of overcoming, i.e. of being an overcomer.
Revelation 21:
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
I realize you (of the Laodicean church, Rev 3) hate all of these troubling NT
passages that warn about loss of salvation. And I realize that you prefer
Scriptures such as John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8, and etc.
But, please understand that there are many dozens of warning verses,
and the Lord insists that your co-operation with the Holy Spirit and
your obedience to His commands are required for salvation!
The very least I can say about Baruch is that he has received (from Jesus Himself) the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I know this because of the many things he has written about it and related items.http://www.benjaminbaruch.net/about-the-author.htmlBaruch claims his books were written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit ...
99% of believers today belong to the Laodicean church, and have absolutely NO desire to reconcile the NT verses ... because doing so would mean obeying Jesus' commandments!I agree. If one sees contradictions or has to say “it’s not saying what it appears to say” then there’s a problem.
Acts 10:35 KJV
vs. Titus 3:5 KJV
Both mean exactly what they say and yet say the opposite. Now what?
They are exact opposites!Good example.
I don’t see them as opposite.
Peter tells the Gentiles that their fearing God and working righteousness makes them accepted of Him. Paul writes the opposite in Titus 3:5 KJV.If you will notice, in both cases it’s pointed out that they were doing works in righteousness. Titus is merely saying our salvation is not based on our works but his mercy.
:rotfl: Romans 11:6 KJV, Galatians 2:16 KJV, Romans 3:21-22 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, Titus 3:5-7 KJVNowhere does the bible tell us we are saved “without works”.
Exactly, that's what MAD does, rightly divide. When two scriptures contradict we study why. That's why we know there are different pieces of good news, different audiences.
Accepted isn't saved. Paul said we must labor to be accepted.They are exact opposites! Peter tells the Gentiles that their fearing God and working righteousness makes them accepted of Him.
Romans 11:6 KJV, Galatians 2:16 KJV, Romans 3:21-22 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, Titus 3:5-7 KJV
No, fool. He hath made us accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:3-7 KJV). What you brought up has to do with labouring in ministry as in reward for the work of the ministry.Accepted isn't saved. Paul said we must labor to be accepted.
2 Cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Works are what makes us worthy but his mercy is the only reason we are saved. We can't earn it.
Look again.None of those say "without works" and most talk of our works because they must be there.