The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my SALVATION

[chair]

I'm sorry, I was assuming that the Tanakh was a product of ruach 'elohim.
If it's simply a compilation of man-made documents, then we cannot attribute anything, contained therein, concerning God, with assuredness.
Of course, this all is assuming that you, as a Jew, even believes in God...

I have been patient until now, but you are becoming belligerent and idiotic.

This is our book. It was written long before neoplatonic philosophy and Christianity were invented. It is our heritage. It is holy, therefore we study it, in order to understand the holy book better.

If you want to make another use of it, you can. But don't expect us to play your games with our book.

 

[beameup]

It is holy, therefore we study it, in order to understand the holy book better.

You say it is "holy" and yet it reveals nothing about God?
Perhaps you could shed a little light on exactly what it is about.
I'm beginning to suspect that it is all about you (your heritage), am I wrong?

 

[chair]

You say it is "holy" and yet it reveals nothing about God?
Perhaps you could shed a little light on exactly what it is about.
I'm beginning to suspect that it is all about you (your heritage), am I wrong?

What is so difficult? The Torah includes many things that God said to my ancestors, either directly or through prophets. We study God's message. We study the historical parts to understand our historical relationship with God. We study the law to understand how God wants us to behave.

The Torah is not a "Guide to God" like some bird-watching guide.

 

[beameup]

What is so difficult? The Torah includes many things that God said to my ancestors, either directly or through prophets. We study God's message. We study the historical parts to understand our historical relationship with God. We study the law to understand how God wants us to behave.

The Torah is not a "Guide to God" like some bird-watching guide.

Thanks, I appreciate it.
So, in a nut-shell, what is "God's message"?

 

[chair]

Thanks, I appreciate it.
So, in a nut-shell, what is "God's message"?

I doubt that you are really interested.
If you are- try reading the Torah, while leaving your own notions behind. Don't look for "hints of Jesus" in every verse. Just read and see what God has to say to the Israelites.

 

[beameup]

I doubt that you are really interested.
If you are- try reading the Torah, while leaving your own notions behind. Don't look for "hints of Jesus" in every verse. Just read and see what God has to say to the Israelites.

I'm not looking for "hints of Jesus". I'm studying the text within the historical context. I'm noting certain somewhat "puzzling" passages and also looking at the text in a chronological fashion (an "unfolding revelation" if you will). I'm a stickler for "details". details-details-details

BTW, I FIRST read the entire Tanakh in 1967.

 

[chair]

I'm not looking for "hints of Jesus". I'm studying the text within the historical context. I'm noting certain somewhat "puzzling" passages and also looking at the text in a chronological fashion (an "unfolding revelation" if you will). I'm a stickler for "details". details-details-details

BTW, I FIRST read the entire Tanakh in 1967.

You should be aware that the Torah itself summarizes things. As in the last part of Deuteronomy 10:

12 And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

 

[beameup]

You should be aware that the Torah itself summarizes things. As in the last part of Deuteronomy 10:

12 And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

Thanks.
Like I said, I read through the Tanakh in college, in the '60, as a "history".
The one thing that really "stuck out" to me repeatedly, was the phrase
"they did evil in the sight of the LORD".
I found this very sad and depressing at the time.

 

[chair]

Thanks.
Like I said, I read through the Tanakh in college, in the '60, as a "history".
The one thing that really "stuck out" to me repeatedly, was the phrase
"they did evil in the sight of the LORD".
I found this very sad and depressing at the time.

I suspect that you failed to pay enough attention to two things:
1. The Torah was given to the children of Israel. Not the whole world.
2. God never gives up on Israel. He may punish them, but always with a hope that the future will be better.

 

[beameup]

I suspect that you failed to pay enough attention to two things:
1. The Torah was given to the children of Israel. Not the whole world.

Generally, the "Bible" comes as a complete-package from Genesis to Revelation. I "pay attention" to every word. I especially note things that "pop-out" of the passage. Sometimes, because of what is "obviously" absent.
Also, the "Torah" is often offered as college credit (perhaps you were unaware of this?).

2. God never gives up on Israel. He may punish them, but always with a hope that the future will be better.

I became acutely aware in June 1967 that something of major global importance was occurring when Jerusalem came under the control of the Israelis. I have been closely observing Israel ever since. The whole "Palestine" and "West-Bank" issue is a farce.

 

[chair]

Generally, the "Bible" comes as a complete-package from Genesis to Revelation.

I am aware that Christians think this is true.

 

[beameup]

I am aware that Christians think this is true.

I'm sorry, but purely secular colleges offer historical courses. Perhaps the issue goes a bit deeper?

 

[chair]

I'm sorry, but purely secular colleges offer historical courses. Perhaps the issue goes a bit deeper?

Please write plainly and clearly. What or who are these "secular colleges", what do their historical courses have to do with anything, and what are you implying about " goes a bit deeper"?

 

[beameup]

Please write plainly and clearly. What or who are these "secular colleges", what do their historical courses have to do with anything, and what are you implying about " goes a bit deeper"?

The Torah seems significant to groups outside of Judaism,
seeing that it was 'written only to the Jews'. Even 'Hollywood' seems
to find it worth investing in 'The Ten Commandments', etc.

 

[chair]

The Torah seems significant to groups outside of Judaism,

I am very happy for them.

Even 'Hollywood' seems to find it worth investing in 'The Ten Commandments', etc.

This "argument from Hollywood" is supposed to convince me of what?

The plain historical facts are that the Tanakh is a Jewish document, written for and by Jews. Early Christianity started as a Jewish sect, and as a result adopted the Jewish scriptures. This history doesn't make the Christian view of the Tanakh correct or particularly convincing.

 

[beameup]

I am very happy for them.


This "argument from Hollywood" is supposed to convince me of what?

The plain historical facts are that the Tanakh is a Jewish document, written for and by Jews. Early Christianity started as a Jewish sect, and as a result adopted the Jewish scriptures. This history doesn't make the Christian view of the Tanakh correct or particularly convincing.

Well, people don't waste investments (like movies) on subjects of no value or interest.
As well, generally colleges don't offer courses in subjects that are of no interest to students.
Additionally, the "Bible" has been the number one book seller year after year for decades.
If the intention was to keep the Jewish scriptures out of the hands of "outsiders", then it would seem that that effort didn't work out too well.

This history doesn't make the Christian view of the
Tanakh correct or particularly convincing.

Just curious, but what is the "Christian view" of the Tanakh? Just asking...

 

[chair]

Well, people don't waste investments (like movies) on subjects of no value or interest.
As well, generally colleges don't offer courses in subjects that are of no interest to students.
Additionally, the "Bible" has been the number one book seller year after year for decades.
If the intention was to keep the Jewish scriptures out of the hands of "outsiders", then it would seem that that effort didn't work out too well.

There wasn't a "goal" to keep it out of the hands of outsiders. Don't make up stuff.

Just curious, but what is the "Christian view" of the Tanakh? Just asking...

Christians tend to read the "Old Testament" as a precursor to their "New Testament". They find phrases or verses that they interpret to refer to Jesus.

 

[beameup]

There wasn't a "goal" to keep it out of the hands of outsiders. Don't make up stuff.

Not making anything up; just trying to incorporate your comment about the Tanakh being strictly by and for Jews, that's all.
That still doesn't address the fact that the Bible is a best-seller, offered at universities and colleges for credit, and the subject of films and plays, etc.

Christians tend to read the "Old Testament" as a precursor to their "New Testament". They find phrases or verses that they interpret to refer to Jesus.

Being a "spiritual" person since a very young age, I tend not to be totally engrossed in the bodily wants and needs. I would offer that there is an interest in the subject of MESSIAH in the Tanakh.

Like I said before, I've been an observer of the State of Israel since June 1967. I am aware of the Temple Mount Faithful and the Temple Institute, and their efforts.

 

[chair]

...
That still doesn't address the fact that the Bible is a best-seller, offered at universities and colleges for credit, and the subject of films and plays, etc.

I don't see that there is anything to address. Enjoy the movies.

Being a "spiritual" person since a very young age, I tend not to be totally engrossed in the bodily wants and needs. I would offer that there is an interest in the subject of MESSIAH in the Tanakh.

There is. It isn't hiding. It requires some mental gymnastics to turn the Jewish Messiah into the Christian one, even if he was Jewish. But those gymnastics have been done years ago, so you don't need to fret about it too much.

Like I said before, I've been an observer of the State of Israel since June 1967. I am aware of the Temple Mount Faithful and the Temple Institute, and their efforts.

Therefore?

 

[beameup]

I don't see that there is anything to address.

Of course not. What I posted is "beyond explanation".

I've been an observer of the State of Israel since June 1967. I am aware of the Temple Mount Faithful and the Temple Institute, and their efforts

.

Therefore?

You are an accuser of people being "hateful".
I find that offensive.

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. - Genesis 22:18

And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed - Genesis 26:4