The Logos-Word

[freelight]

Jesus is God Almighty. Believe it or perish

The problem here is, Jesus never taught this as a prerequisite for salvation

It is properly monotheistic, appropriately Unitarian to see God the Father as the Most High God,...and all else even if they have the title or role of 'elohim'(God/gods), as being subordinate to the Most High. This is Jesus theology, which is expressly Unitarian

 

[Bright Raven]

Sad defense BR, back up your understanding of the two verses if you can. Are you just copy and pasting someone else's thoughts?

For years now I have asked you to produce ANY IMAGE that is not created, you hide from the truth with your inability to name even one.

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How many times do I have to show you Keypurr? Just because I give you a commentary rendering in response does not mean that I don't believe the same thing. How many times do I have to show you the same thing?

Christ is the firstborn over all creation or of every created thing. What does this mean? Some false teachers suggest that the Lord Jesus Himself is a created being, That He was the first Person whom God ever made. Some are even willing to go so far as to admit that He is the greatest creature to ever come out of the hand of God. But nothing could be more contrary to the teaching of the Word. The word firstborn is used to designate a place of superiority, of supremacy, of uniqueness. Is that not exactly the thought of Colossians 1:15-the firstborn over all creation? The Lord Jesus Christ is God's unique Son. In one sense all believer's are sons of God, but the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Son in a way that is not true of any other. He existed before all creation and occupies a position of supremacy over it. His is the rank of eminence and dominion. The expression firstborn over all creation has nothing to do with birth here. It simply means that He is God's Son by relationship. It is a title of priority of position, and not simply one of time.

Hebrews 1:3, The Lord Jesus is the exact image of God's essential being. This cannot of course refer to physical likeness because God is, in essence, a Spirit. It means that in every conceivable way, Christ exactly represents the Father. No closer resemblance could be possible. The Son, being God, reveals to man by His words and ways exactly what God is like.

(From the Believer's Bible Commentary)

 

[Bright Raven]

The problem here is, Jesus never taught this as a prerequisite for salvation

It is properly monotheistic, appropriately Unitarian to see God the Father as the Most High God,...and all else even if they have the title or role of 'elohim'(God/gods), as being subordinate to the Most High. This is Jesus theology, which is expressly Unitarian

Your prerogative friend.

 

[keypurr]

How many times do I have to show you Keypurr? Just because I give you a commentary rendering in response does not mean that I don't believe the same thing. How many times do I have to show you the same thing?

Christ is the firstborn over all creation or of every created thing. What does this mean? Some false teachers suggest that the Lord Jesus Himself is a created being, That He was the first Person whom God ever made. Some are even willing to go so far as to admit that He is the greatest creature to ever come out of the hand of God. But nothing could be more contrary to the teaching of the Word. The word firstborn is used to designate a place of superiority, of supremacy, of uniqueness. Is that not exactly the thought of Colossians 1:15-the firstborn over all creation? The Lord Jesus Christ is God's unique Son. In one sense all believer's are sons of God, but the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Son in a way that is not true of any other. He existed before all creation and occupies a position of supremacy over it. His is the rank of eminence and dominion. The expression firstborn over all creation has nothing to do with birth here. It simply means that He is God's Son by relationship. It is a title of priority of position, and not simply one of time.

Hebrews 1:3, The Lord Jesus is the exact image of God's essential being. This cannot of course refer to physical likeness because God is, in essence, a Spirit. It means that in every conceivable way, Christ exactly represents the Father. No closer resemblance could be possible. The Son, being God, reveals to man by His words and ways exactly what God is like.

(From the Believer's Bible Commentary)

Your posted words:
Christ is the firstborn of all creation.......
Firstborn means created, first to be born. In other words, Christ is a creation.

Now look at Heb 1, again your words, Christ exactly repents the Father, WHY CAN NOT HE BE A SPIRIT?
A resemblance is an image.

Your Beliver's Bible is worthless if you do not read every word.

Sorry BR, but to find truth you need to go deeper than they do.

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[freelight]

Theo-Sophia...............

Theo-Sophia...............

I have not studied the other religions but, yes, on the subject matter that I am familiar with, I do concur. Also Paul even tells us that Messiah is the Wisdom of Elohim, (and he also tells us that there is neither male nor female in Messiah because the Word contains both).

1 Corinthians 1:24
24 But to those who are called, both Yhudim and Greeks, Messiah is the Power of Elohim, (θεου δυναμιν), and the Wisdom of Elohim (θεου σοφιαν).

See also Eph 1:17, (πνευμα σοφιας), Eph 3:10, (σοφια του θεου), in their contexts.

And also:

James 3:13-17
13 Who is wise and endued with knowledge among you? Let the same show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descends not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where there is envying and strife there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

The Spirit of Wisdom therefore descends from the heavens like a Yonah-Dove.

πνευμα σοφια (1 Corinthians 1:24, Ephesians 1:17)
πνευμα θεου (Genesis 1:2 LXX, Matthew 3:16, Romans 8:9)
πνευμα χριστου (Romans 8:9)

πνευμα θεου = πνευμα σοφια = πνευμα χριστου

Thank you, I shall weave in from other religious traditions, east & west, about the creative word, since it has come by man's own conscience reflecting the universal truth of 'logos' relative to that directing intelligence behind the very patterns of creation. This very image and likeness of the 'creative will' abides in man, so he is a logos-bearer...which on one level makes him a 'co-creator' with 'God'.

If the 'logos' is so important relating to the Christ story concerning creation and redemption, then the metaphysical understanding of 'word' is most essential. And it still holds that Wisdom is the tree of life, her paths are peace. Wisdom, the 'word'....is the principle thing.

 

[Bright Raven]

Your posted words:
Christ is the firstborn of all creation.......
Firstborn means created, first to be born. In other words, Christ is a creation.

Now look at Heb 1, again your words, Christ exactly repents the Father, WHY CAN NOT HE BE A SPIRIT?
A resemblance is an image.

Your Beliver's Bible is worthless if you do not read every word.

Sorry BR, but to find truth you need to go deeper than they do.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

No Keypurr, you just need to believe the simplicity of the Gospel!

 

[keypurr]

No Keypurr, you just need to believe the simplicity of the Gospel!

The Gospel is far from being simple my friend.

That's why you do not fully understand what could be.

Half truth is not truth.

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[daqq]

Originally Posted by Bright Raven
Jesus is God Almighty. Believe it or perish

:rotfl:

Lol, too funny, a dead man who denies Messiah, telling me that I will perish if I do not agree with him and his church mother and fathers, and their creeds and decrees, which violate and abandon the Holy Scripture and the Word whom I love.

You should have listened to my brother Keypurr when he said that this thread is a danger to all who claim that Jesus is God Almighty; for it truly is dangerous, and that includes the Oneness believers, the Oneness-Modalist-MADists, and the Trinitarians such as yourself who say pretty much the same. And it is not dangerous because of little ole me, no, but it is dangerous because it contains the infallible holy Testimony of Yeshua which you have now openly denied before men. And Yeshua says, "Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in the heavens", and also, "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy Angels, (Matt 10:32-33, Mark 8:34-38, Luke 9:23-26).

Believe the Testimony of Yeshua or perish yourself, O man.

No Keypurr, you just need to believe the simplicity of the Gospel!

How simple can it be?! And yet you openly deny what is right in front of your eyes!

Again, the plain simple flow of systematic logic straight from the Testimony of Yeshua:

The words of Yeshua are Spirit:

John 6:62-63
62 What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending up to where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life.

The Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son:

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The man Yeshua does not testify of himself and therefore does not claim to be Elohim:

John 5:31
31 If I testify of myself, my testimony is not true.

The man Yeshua emphatically states that he himself judges no one:

John 8:15
15. You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

There is only one who judges and he is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge. [Rev 2:23]

The Logos-Word is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the LOGOS-WORD that I have spoken, THAT ONE shall judge him in the last day [Rev 19:11-16].

The Logos-Word which the man Yeshua speaks is not his own:

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not, keeps not my sayings: and the Logos-Word which you hear is not of me, but of the Father who sent me.

The Father judges no one, (John 5:22).
The man Yeshua judges no one, (John 8:15, John 12:47-48).
The Father has committed all judgment unto the Son, (John 5:22).
The man Yeshua does not testify concerning himself, (John 5:31).
The man Yeshua testifies concerning the Father and the Son.
The Son is therefore the only Judge.

The Father is not the Judge.
The man Yeshua is not the Judge.
The Logos-Word that Yeshua spoke is the Judge.
The man Yeshua therefore cannot be the Logos-Word.
The Logos-Word is the only begotten Elohim-Son of Elohim, (John 1:18).
The Testimony of Yeshua is never going to pass away, (Mt 24:35, Mk 13:31, Lk 21:33).
("The Logos-Word" Post#2)

 

[keypurr]

No Keypurr, you just need to believe the simplicity of the Gospel!

Tell me why the express image is NOT a Spirit.
Do you think God used a man to lay the foundation of the Universe?

Silly idea BR, God used his created Spirit Son and was pleased that he had his (the Father's) fullness. More proof that the son is a creation.

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[Bright Raven]

The Gospel is far from being simple my friend.

That's why you do not fully understand what could be.

Half truth is not truth.

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The Gospel
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Pretty simple huh?

 

[Zeke]

So you affirm a creed of man while denying the very Testimony of Yeshua himself from the Gospel of John. Duly noted. But why then should anyone believe anything else you try to steal from the Gospel of John for your own purposes and use it to promote your creeds of man? You have disqualified yourself and your creeds of men because clearly your creed does not comply with the Testimony of Messiah.

 

[keypurr]

The Gospel
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Pretty simple huh?

Can we discard the rest of the Bible then?

No BR, look very carefully at the words our Lord spoke about his God (father) when SENT him. John 17:3

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[Lazy afternoon]

You were clearly not willing to confess the Testimony of Yeshua in the two opening posts. Then you got all upset because I noted this fact in another thread and you demanded an apology from me. I sent you back here to do what you said you did if you truly desired an apology: you still refuse to do what you tried to falsely insinuate that you did. If you are not going to answer the two opening posts and confess that plain clear simple to understand Testimony of Yeshua then why should you expect any answers from me here in this my thread?

You can demand all you like.

You do not know me very well.

So you can not answer my question, so I will repeat it.

How did the word become flesh.

LA

 

[Bright Raven]

Can we discard the rest of the Bible then?

No BR, look very carefully at the words our Lord spoke about his God (father) when SENT him. John 17:3

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You don't do well with simplicity.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Can we discard the rest of the Bible then?

No BR, look very carefully at the words our Lord spoke about his God (father) when SENT him. John 17:3

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So Dagg (like you)also believes Christ is a created Spirit which helped the Father to create the world and then came down from Heaven at Jesus Baptism so that the man Jesus was then actually two sons, one through Mary and the other a created Spirit.

LA

 

[keypurr]

You don't do well with simplicity.

Answer my question :
Tell me why the express image is NOT a Spirit.

Why are you shying away from it?

 

[Bright Raven]

Answer my question :
Tell me why the express image is NOT a Spirit.

Why are you shying away from it?

The express image is an exact representation of the Father. Either you can't read or haven't read my previous posts.

 

[daqq]

You can demand all you like.

You do not know me very well.

So you can not answer my question, so I will repeat it.

How did the word become flesh.

LA

The still yet is not an answer to the two opening posts.
Why therefore do you expect and answer from me when you will not answer the OP?

Again, the plain simple flow of systematic logic straight from the Testimony of Yeshua:

The words of Yeshua are Spirit:

John 6:62-63
62 What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending up to where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life.

The Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son:

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The man Yeshua does not testify of himself and therefore does not claim to be Elohim:

John 5:31
31 If I testify of myself, my testimony is not true.

The man Yeshua emphatically states that he himself judges no one:

John 8:15
15. You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

There is only one who judges and he is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge. [Rev 2:23]

The Logos-Word is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the LOGOS-WORD that I have spoken, THAT ONE shall judge him in the last day [Rev 19:11-16].

The Logos-Word which the man Yeshua speaks is not his own:

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not, keeps not my sayings: and the Logos-Word which you hear is not of me, but of the Father who sent me.

The Father judges no one, (John 5:22).
The man Yeshua judges no one, (John 8:15, John 12:47-48).
The Father has committed all judgment unto the Son, (John 5:22).
The man Yeshua does not testify concerning himself, (John 5:31).
The man Yeshua testifies concerning the Father and the Son.
The Son is therefore the only Judge.

The Father is not the Judge.
The man Yeshua is not the Judge.
The Logos-Word that Yeshua spoke is the Judge.
The man Yeshua therefore cannot be the Logos-Word.
The Logos-Word is the only begotten Elohim-Son of Elohim, (John 1:18).
The Testimony of Yeshua is never going to pass away, (Mt 24:35, Mk 13:31, Lk 21:33).
("The Logos-Word" Post#2)

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The still yet is not an answer to the two opening posts.
Why therefore do you expect and answer from me when you will not answer the OP?

Again, the plain simple flow of systematic logic straight from the Testimony of Yeshua:

The words of Yeshua are Spirit:

John 6:62-63
62 What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending up to where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life.

The Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son:

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The man Yeshua does not testify of himself and therefore does not claim to be Elohim:

John 5:31
31 If I testify of myself, my testimony is not true.

The man Yeshua emphatically states that he himself judges no one:

John 8:15
15. You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

There is only one who judges and he is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge. [Rev 2:23]

The Logos-Word is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the LOGOS-WORD that I have spoken, THAT ONE shall judge him in the last day [Rev 19:11-16].

The Logos-Word which the man Yeshua speaks is not his own:

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not, keeps not my sayings: and the Logos-Word which you hear is not of me, but of the Father who sent me.

The Father judges no one, (John 5:22).
The man Yeshua judges no one, (John 8:15, John 12:47-48).
The Father has committed all judgment unto the Son, (John 5:22).
The man Yeshua does not testify concerning himself, (John 5:31).
The man Yeshua testifies concerning the Father and the Son.
The Son is therefore the only Judge.

The Father is not the Judge.
The man Yeshua is not the Judge.
The Logos-Word that Yeshua spoke is the Judge.
The man Yeshua therefore cannot be the Logos-Word.
The Logos-Word is the only begotten Elohim-Son of Elohim, (John 1:18).
The Testimony of Yeshua is never going to pass away, (Mt 24:35, Mk 13:31, Lk 21:33).
("The Logos-Word" Post#2)

Ok I agree with it, except for -The man Yeshua therefore cannot be the Logos-Word.

He is the word made flesh.


Now will you answer my question.

LA

 

[keypurr]

The express image is an exact representation of the Father. Either you can't read or haven't read my previous posts.

I read your post, but your only half right.

Hebrews 1:3

(ASV) who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(BBE) Who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;

(Bishops) Who beyng the bryghtnesse of the glorie, and the very image of his substaunce, vpholdyng all thynges with the worde of his power, hauing by him selfe pourged our sinnes, hath syt on the ryght hande of the maiestie on hye:

(CEV) God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together. After the Son had washed away our sins, he sat down at the right side of the glorious God in heaven.

(DRB) Who being the brightness of his glory and the figure of his substance and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high:

(ESV) He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(Geneva) Who being the brightnes of the glory, and the ingraued forme of his person, and bearing vp all things by his mightie worde, hath by himselfe purged our sinnes, and sitteth at the right hand of the Maiestie in the highest places,

(GNB) He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

(GW) His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

(ISV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

(KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NAS77) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NASB) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NET.) The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

(NIrV) The Son is the gleaming brightness of God's glory. He is the exact likeness of God's being. He uses his powerful word to hold all things together. He provided the way for people to be made pure from sin. Then he sat down at the right hand of the King, the Majesty in heaven.

(NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

(NKJV) who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NRSV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(NRSVA) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

(TNIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

(YLT) who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might--through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,

God made a clone of himself. A spirit son, the first of all creation. And he created all through that son in heaven and earth. This son is first to be born of all creatures.