Theology Club: The letter from Paul to the Romans
- Thread starter Nick M
- Start date
He was not laying in to the saints at Rome (I hold they were in the Body before Paul wrote Romans).
Anyway, consider that this about the Roman saints, from Romans 1:
5. By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6. Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7. To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Is not this, about how the Jew ended up losing his "natural branch" status (direct access), for his failure to access it by faith - Romans 2:
17. Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18. And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19. And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20. An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? Thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22. Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? Thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23. Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24. For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
To hold otherwise is the result of words and or phrases not studied out as fully as they should have been, followed by building from them, more of the same misunderstanding.
Study out throughly, words like "beloved, called, calling, separated unto, set apart, holy, sanctified (which is where the word saint comes from), sanctification, holy," just to name a few.
This here "17. Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God," is the end of a long process of indictment found through Israel's long, rebellious history.
And it is in the same sense as Ephesians 2: 11's negative "that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands..."
Because Ephesians 2 is Romans 1 thru 3 and 9 thru 11.
The Jews boasting that Paul is referring to both in Romans 2 and in Ephesians 2, being...
Isaiah 61:
1. But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
Romans 2:17's boasting is the issue of the Jew's awareness of what his nation had been chosen unto, even as he walked against it, in his conclusion that access is the same as possession.
John 8:
33. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Catch that - even as they were under bondage to the Romans Empire and with that, said one more instance of Gentile Power laughing at (blasphemy of) the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Isaiah 52:5.
John 8:
34. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Notice - they're in, and yet out:
37. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
So which is it, are they Jews or not?
40. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
The same list of offenses as Romans 2's indictment - against the Jew, not, the Roman saints at Rome.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I believe it's the same guy (someone Paul zeroed in on and used for an example) as the "thou" (singular in a KJB) guy (some of us call him "O man" Romans 2:1 KJV) of Romans 11. I posted about who the Romans were and of O man here some time ago:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2874384&postcount=324
I continue to see the same problem as the very basis of what your view asserts about various matters.
That it is based on distinctions that are not as fine as they needed to be before allowing it's conclusions.
Reading your above about "O man," what's their name, oh yea - "O Israel" might say "oy vey," and man o man."
Yes “thou” is a second person singular pronoun.
But because words like man, and Jew, etc., can refer either to one individual (noun), or to a group (collective noun), the word “thou” when followed by such words can refer to a group or category, as one.
Here, have a little interchangeability - Deuteronomy 5:
1. And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
6. I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7. Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
How about this one - 1 Corinthians 4:
6. And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
:e4e:
Amen Brother!
Hey STP, hope all's well with you.
My point was that Paul is a addressing all as one, not a particular individual.
In this, his words will often be about and or apply to all, as one.*
In this, consider that a Pastor communicating the KJV's intended sense there, to his hearers, would do so, not in the KJV English he has just read to them, rather; in today's equivalent - "that none of you become," or "end up" "puffed up," for example.
And its "you" is also the second person plural.
*Paul often relates groups in categories of one.
musterion
Well-known member
Was reading Romans this morning and now get the impression that ch. 6:12-23 is the main reason, or a big part of the reason, that Paul wrote.
That missing knowledge of their identity and position in Christ is the gift he sought to impart to them. The purpose was so that they, too, could be established in the faith to both their comfort and Paul's (Rom 1:11, 12). But that missing knowledge was some very deep water, and so had to have a lot of groundwork laid first. Paul takes up about the first half of his letter to do it.
Thoughts?
The Romans were saved (v. 17-18) but apparently were ignorant of who and what they now were in Christ (Rom 6:3, 16). As a result, Paul apparently learned of their weak, fleshly behavior and legalism (opening of ch. 2 and above in v. 19). They were serving sin because they did not realize that, in Christ, they were no longer the servants of sin, perhaps not unlike the Corinthians.
That missing knowledge of their identity and position in Christ is the gift he sought to impart to them. The purpose was so that they, too, could be established in the faith to both their comfort and Paul's (Rom 1:11, 12). But that missing knowledge was some very deep water, and so had to have a lot of groundwork laid first. Paul takes up about the first half of his letter to do it.
Thoughts?
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Romans 6 is based on the reality of Romans 1 thru 5, and comes in just off of what Paul concludes in chapter 5.
Which is basically Paul's own OSAS assertion.
Romans 6 then anticipates what some might say and or do with that. He began this way back at the beginning of Romans 3; where he relates his experience with those who would slander him as teaching one could live as one pleased.
This is a common element within Paul's writings - he often anticipates odd ball, but serious questions and or assertions that he then addresses.
This helps establish the Believer in how to do the same kind of thing simply by osmosis; simply through time in Romans; when it is properly approached.
Again, a key aspect is that he very often anticipates various kinds of problems, assertions, and questions he then addresses.
And often, when he is not addressing an individual, he can be found addressing a group as if he is addressing one individual. His letters are very one on one in this.
Why?
1 Cor. 14:37 is why.
And yes, the Romans were saved.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Rom 1:5
Through Whom we have received
Grace and apostleship
Unto obedience of faith
In all nations,
Upon His Name.
What do you understand by "OBEDIENCE of FAITH" in this passage?
Arsenios
Let's cut the poop. MAD and all grace believers no longer under the law can still obey, even though it has no bearing on our salvation -
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
It's not difficult to obey the Ten Commandments and Jesus' commands.
Find a different high horse as this seems to be your theme - Obedience
View attachment 20504 they are not burdensome
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View attachment 20505 Not Burdensome to Obey !!
1 John 5:2-3 - 1 John 5:2-3 KJV - 1 John 5:2-3 NIV -
1 John 5:4 KJV -
1 John 5:2-3 - 1 John 5:2-3 KJV - 1 John 5:2-3 NIV -
1 John 5:4 KJV -
Believing, Rom. 6:14.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Mind if I pass?
You sound upset...
The Scripture cited seems to be almost an encryption of doctrine in this summary by Paul as he open this letter. And he describes Christ as the One:
Rom 1:5
Through Whom we have received
Grace and apostleship
Unto obedience of faith
In all nations,
Upon His Name.
And I was simply trying to parse it...
He speaks of Christ "through Whom we have received Grace"...
And "through Whom we have received Apostleship"...
And then "unto obedience of faith..."
So IF Grace and Apostleship are given by Christ UNTO faith's obedience in ALL the Nations "upon His Name"... Does this mean that faith's obedience in all nations is for the sake of glorifying His Name? Is that what "upon His Name" means?
And what is "Faith's obedience"? And why does it take Apostleship and Grace for all the nations to possess it? Why is it so important?
Does this mean that you don't want me to ask questions about what the words of Scripture actually mean?
The "obedience of Faith" CANNOT be the 10 Commandments...
We had them before Christ and His Apostles and Grace...
They came with the Prophets...
Abraham, I think, had "obedience of Faith"...
God spoke and he obeyed without hesitation...
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
The obedience of faith is to believe God?
Normally obedience means to obey...
And to obey is to DO what is COMMANDED...
Hard to confine obedience to mental assent (believing)...
The Gospel is a COMMANDMENT, after all...
Proclaiming the presence here and now of the Kingdom of Heaven...
And commanding us to repent and be baptized into Christ...
Arsenios
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Arsenios
Well-known member
Good post!
Paul was addressing the faithful in Rome, because as their Pastor, he was writing them a pastoral letter, because they were under the attack of Judaizers who wanted them to become Jews by Circumcision and obedience to the Levitical Law, thereby forsaking the Grace into which they were already entered in the Faith of Christ through Paul...
This conflict was not resolved until the Council at Jerusalem where after much debate, the argument of Peter was received by all and proclaimed by the Head of the Jerusalem Church, Iakovos [James - the brother of our Lord], that the Gentiles did NOT have to be circumcised not adopt the Levitical Law...
Paul's view prevailed...
There were people (each with their own assemblies at Rome). Leaders who not only personally knew Paul, but his gospel, way before Paul wrote Romans - see, for example, Acts 18: 1-6, 11, 18, 26-28; Rom. 16:1-15, etc.
In this, the Romans would have had copies of Paul's Epistles prior to his writing of Romans, some ten years after he wrote Galatians, some eight years after he wrote 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, and so on, 1 Co. 14:37; Col. 4:16, 1 Thess. 4:27, etc.
There were also letters going back and forth between Paul and his leaders, 1 Cor. 7:1; 16:10, etc.
Not to mention what Acts 18: 26 and Romans 16:3 together make obvious the Romans would also have known before Paul wrote them - "the way of God more perfectly" Acts 18:26, that Romans is merely a full detail of in written form, Acts 20:32, Rom. 1:11-12; 15: 15-16; 16: 25-26.
Note the 2 Tim. 2:2 pattern in Acts 20:26-27 - the Apostle Paul clearly taught a pattern to his leaders they were then to "teach others also."
This is too much information in Paul's "faithful men" at Rome for the Romans to have been in the dark about Paul's gospel.
And this is not even laying out all there is about this...
In this, the Romans would have had copies of Paul's Epistles prior to his writing of Romans, some ten years after he wrote Galatians, some eight years after he wrote 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, and so on, 1 Co. 14:37; Col. 4:16, 1 Thess. 4:27, etc.
There were also letters going back and forth between Paul and his leaders, 1 Cor. 7:1; 16:10, etc.
Not to mention what Acts 18: 26 and Romans 16:3 together make obvious the Romans would also have known before Paul wrote them - "the way of God more perfectly" Acts 18:26, that Romans is merely a full detail of in written form, Acts 20:32, Rom. 1:11-12; 15: 15-16; 16: 25-26.
Note the 2 Tim. 2:2 pattern in Acts 20:26-27 - the Apostle Paul clearly taught a pattern to his leaders they were then to "teach others also."
This is too much information in Paul's "faithful men" at Rome for the Romans to have been in the dark about Paul's gospel.
And this is not even laying out all there is about this...
heir
TOL Subscriber
If what you say is true about the Romans, then Paul had no reason to long to see them, to write the letter and to preach the gospel to them that they may be established! I'll stick with the KJB and Paul!
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Romans 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Romans 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
Romans 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
That we should all be Ancient Eastern Orthodox