The Law can be used lawfully. What do you think this means?

Jacob

Jacob

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1 Timothy 1:1-11 NASB - 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope, 2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

I say that this says the Law can be used lawfully. What does it mean for the Law to be used lawfully? What do you think it means?
 
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Ben Masada

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Jacob said:
I say that this says the Law can be used lawfully. What does it mean for the Law to be used lawfully? What do you think it means?
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IMHO, it means nothing, no offense meant. There is no difference at all between transgression of the Law and the use of the Law not lawfully.
 
Jacob

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Ben Masada said:
It means nothing, no offense meant. There is no difference at all between transgression of the Law and the use of the Law not lawfully.
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I don't want to be confusing. I want to ask this question. Are you saying that when a person does not use the Law lawfully they are transgressing God's Law?
 
serpentdove

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Ben Masada said:
...There is no difference at all between transgression of the Law and the use of the Law not lawfully.
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Sure there is. If you believe that you can keep the law or be sanctified enough to be worthy of going to heaven then the law is for you. It's a mirror. God demands perfection :listen: and you ain't it. So, you need a savior. His righteousness is imputed to you when you believe (Mt 5:20). You, being a Jew, have just run into a stumbling block (1 Co 1:23).
 
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Danoh

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Verses 8 & 9 tell you what he meant - using the Law lawfully refers to using or applying it as it had been meant to be used or applied.

While, in that context there, he is referring to applying it as it had been meant to be applied in regard to the issue he is talking about there.

The issue of who the Law condemns.

Not the righteous, but the unrighteous.

Aparrantly, some were applying said condemning to the righteous.

Obviously, they neither understood this aspect of the Law, nor did they actually have a basis in Scripture they could point to.
 
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Ben Masada

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serpentdove said:
Sure there is. If you believe that you can keep the law or be sanctified enough to be worthy of going to heaven then the law is for you. It's a mirror. God demands perfection :listen: and you ain't it. So, you need a savior. His righteousness is imputed to you when you believe (Mt 5:20). You, being a Jew, have just run into a stumbling block (1 Co 1:23).
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I don't keep the Law to go to Heaven. If one needs the promise of Heaven in order to keep the Law, he or she is no different from a dog that needs a treat to either behave well or perform funny. I keep the Law because that's a Jewish thing to do. Simply as that. It is in the nature of being Jewish.

God does not demand perfection. He reminds us all to choose obedience of His Law to have life and seek perfection. (Deuteronomy 30:19,20) Since according to Ecclesiastes 7:20 none can be perfect, the Lord inspired His Prophet Isaiah to teach us to set things right with HaShem so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow by repenting and returning to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)There is not Divine arrangement to sacrifice someone for the salvation of another. And for the need of a Savior, we have already HaShem as the Savior of His own People Israel. Read Isaiah 43:3.
 
Jacob

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Danoh said:
Verses 8 & 9 tell you what he meant - using the Law lawfully refers to using or applying it as it had been meant to be used or applied.

While, in that context there, he is referring to applying it as it had been meant to be applied in regard to the issue he is talking about there.

The issue of who the Law condemns.

Not the righteous, but the unrighteous.

Aparrantly, some were applying said condemning to the righteous.

Obviously, they neither understood this aspect of the Law, nor did they actually have a basis in Scripture they could point to.
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Is it just condemning or is it rather converting the soul?

Psalm 19:7 NASB - 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 19:9 NASB - 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.
 
serpentdove

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Ben Masada said:
I don't keep the Law to go to Heaven. If one needs the promise of Heaven in order to keep the Law, he or she is no different from a dog that needs a treat to either behave well or perform funny.
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We are rewarded (Ps. 19:11). We race to win (1 Co 9:24).

Ben Masada said:
I keep the Law because that's a Jewish thing to do.
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God doesn't have any grandchildren. Each must come to the kingdom on his own (Mt 6:33).

Ben Masada said:
God does not demand perfection.
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Mt 5:20, 48

 
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Bradley D

Bradley D

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"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7).

The law lets me know what is sinful. If I covet I will know that is a sin because the law tells me so.
 
JonahofAkron

JonahofAkron

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Bradley D said:
"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7).

The law lets me know what is sinful. If I covet I will know that is a sin because the law tells me so.
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Absolutely. And when you don't covet, you have fulfilled that law.

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serpentdove

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Jacob said:
We are asked by God to obey His commands.
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Right. Do that. :plain:

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: :burnlib: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. :straight: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God (Ro 8:13–14, emphasis mine).
 
Jacob

Jacob

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serpentdove said:
Right. Do that. :plain:

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: :burnlib: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. :straight: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God (Ro 8:13–14, emphasis mine).
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Obeying God's commands is not living after the flesh.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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serpentdove said:
Live according to the flesh--die (Ro 8:13). :burnlib: Be led by the spirit--live (Ro 8:14). :straight:
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Living according to the flesh involves living in such a way that you are not obeying God. This is different than trying to be perfected by the flesh. I recommend neither of these to you.
 
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Robert Pate

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Bradley D said:
"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7).

The law lets me know what is sinful. If I covet I will know that is a sin because the law tells me so.
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No, the Holy Spirit not the law will tell you so.
 
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