The Late Great Urantia Revelation
- Thread starter Caino
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Oh, well then show me in the Bible where Satan, or anyone for that matter, that God creates, lives forever? Show me where God teaches in the Bible that he cannot destroy his created beings?
God inhabits the circle of eternity, he transcends time.
The God you describe is the God concept created in the image of the holy men who wrote Israelite History. That's why you have to make poor excuses for what they wrote rather then acknowledging their ignorance.
Try reading the Bible. Maybe you'll understand it then.
Try Revelation.
"If there be any other way, let this cup pass from me..."
Sound familiar?
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.
Not according to the Bible.
You have yet to prove that.
You have yet to make a convincing argument that such is the case.
1) That God had no foresight that his Satan would mislead the whole world. Acted surprised when it happened.
2) That God "regretted" his own creation. After drowning the whole earth, he still keeps the Satan alive which keeps misleading people.
3) According to you God couldn't stop Satan, you used the theory that God cant destroy his created beings......yet the BOR says he can "bind him" and even let him back out.
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years and threw him into the pit and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be let out for a little while.
— Revelation 20:2–3
The excuse you used in justification for an ongoing Satan has been discredited by the fact that God can bind him.
Is then when you falsely accuse me of blasphemy to save face????
What part of "knew it was a possibility and thus implemented contingencies into His creation?
What part of "He cannot destroy something that He created to be indestructible" do you not understand?
Where did I say such?
The what?
Oh, do you mean Revelation?
Just say Revelation then.
Again, where did I say God could not stop Satan?
Revelation 20:14–15 "Then Death and Hades[7] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the-------> second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." [NKJV]Revelation 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."[8]
Second death!
You implied that, after God was frustrated with his first creation and destroyed everyone, the reason his couldn't prevent Satan from immediately messing up the second creation was because he made him indestructible. But I see, now you are saying that he could have locked up the indestructible Satan but chose not to. So God returns to punishing people for being mislead by his invisible fallen Satan.
But that is your theology and I should respect that.
Yes, and?
"Cast into the lake of fire."
Not "destroyed."
Not "annihilated."
Still extant.
What "second creation"?
God created once, in a six-day period, at the beginning of creation.
I didn't just imply that. That's what I said.
And?
Why is it God's fault when His creation, which has broken itself by rebelling against Him, brings down other parts of His creation?
Answer that first.
In your scenario God allows a superior being to fool his finite children and corrupt his creation not once but twice. After rapidly repopulating the earth (which only the Jews seemed to remember) God allows Satan again to corrupt his creation.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Your concept of God lacks the attributes of an all knowing deity.
I believe that the “blind guides of a nation” invented the flood story when they were trying to claim an authoritative line of decent all the way back to Adam who they assumed was the first man. They learned of Adam from Mesopotamian religions.
Death means death. You may not want it to be true in order to support your theory.
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Not genius.
The dead (unsaved) know nothing, they don't exist. In Gods economy there would be no reason for them to exist.
Superior to whom?
Finite? Who said humans were finite? Humans, like angels, were created to last forever.
Sorry, the creation was corrupted once. Not twice.
Again?
Because that's not the God of the Bible.
You're arguing against a straw man, Caino.
Please stop.
Once more, ripping things out of context to try to support your fairy tale.
Sorry, but Jesus spoke of Adam as the first human.
So what does death mean, then?
Says the one making absurd claims.
Hold up. There's a difference between dead (unsaved) and dead (physically lifeless).
Which are you talking about here?
And in each case, what does "dead" mean?
Because you say so?
You mean, "In the economy of the god of my imagination, there would be no reason for them to exist"?
Because the dead do exist. They never stopped existing.
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That's retarded.
Lon
Well-known member
So does the UB, they have built off of that narrative and TRIED to change it. Is that what you actually want? An 'edited' God?
When does it only become what is in your head, instead of what is written, Caino? Does that time EVER come? You 'think' you were smart (as did Sadler) but you became foolish. Instead of wrestling with God over concepts, and actually LEARNING as the creature, you've made/bought one in your image. Do you NOT understand that?
To a point. Let me address your mentioned concern (among many no doubt): God COULD have wiped out Satan. You, in the flesh (completely) imagine 'death' is the worst thing that can happen to man. Nope. While I don't know the whole story, YOURS (Dr. Sadlers) is worse for the wear. God's whole desire is to save man. It requires getting messy because like you and Sadler, YOUR heads get in the way of actual needs. Did you never hear the story of the wheat and tares? The desire was to save. To save every last one of 'redeemable' man.
Can I get you to understand that? Only if you recognize a difference between your spiritual purpose, and the difference of a fleshly man. I ''wrested' as Jacob did: In the flesh. So 'common' sense is simply "Lon" in the flesh. Do I understand God's decisions? No, but I don't and will not whitewash. There is something desperate in our need.
Er, you cannot pick and choose THEN change the story, especially when your rendition is concerned with the flesh. There is a desperate need in man to become reacquainted with Imago Deo: God's image. The END of the story is about wiping away every tear. About never having to wrestle with the flesh, sin, or evil again. Did you STOP reading the Bible before you got to that part? Why don't you know this stuff, Caino? Further: Why would you want any other story than His Story? It requires wrestling with God. Jacob did. It is right there in the Bible.
Your's is made up and edited FROM the Bible. I don't want a god I cleaned up and made myself. I simply want a God who exists and want to know the terms. This God, I pray to, answers my prayers very specifically. He has not only met my material needs, He has indwelled me and is very much the God you want to exist. He reached down in this messy life of mine and gave me hope. He changed me from death to life.
Lon
Well-known member
Some of this is given by theologians to try and address/explain something. I've no idea why Satan is left alive. What I do know, is that it doesn't seem to be the answer. The story of the wheat and tares talks about a desire that no wheat is harmed. You address a scenario where it'd seem, at one time in history, there was literally nothing in the human populace but weeds and no one to spare, but Noah and his family. That is the 'given' scenario so it does no good, on your part, on Dr. Sadler's part, or anybody else, to try and second-guess His care and concern. Sadler nor the UB gave a 'better' answer. All that came was a person's own 'sensibilities' to try and whitewash what he didn't understand. He wasn't a theologian.
:nono: We don't get to rewrite our own history. There are points in the O.T. that aren't easy. While 'common' sense cries foul, we aren't writing the story, we are being instructed by it. It is BEST to learn the lesson instead of completely avoiding it. Did Dr. Sadler see a burning bush? :nono: Did Dr. Sadler wrestle with God? :nono: Did Caino walk in a firey furnace? :nono:
Not true. There is no poor excusing. We wade through all the messy parts of it as the history it is (unless you are denying all of the Israelite's history). It is WAY worse to make up a story like Dr. Sadler did. In a way, I've come to see God similarly: Good, as you do, but the difference is "I wrested with God" and didn't rewrite or edit Him. If I did, I'D be God! I don't want to be my own god. I can't be my own god. I have to be the creature and be His creature. I, personally, have no other choice. I'm not arrogant, not to that extent. I have to take God as He is. I don't want to follow a god that came out of my or someone else's head. You at least, in your fleshly head, have to acknowledge He isn't a God out of my own head. At least you have to agree on that point.
Yes, corrupted again, Noah was found drunk and passed out naked in his tent. The earth returned to sin. You can keep pretending you don’t know what I mean.
You want nonexistent people to exist to substantiate your pet theory. A teaching not found in the Bible but applied to a sect of Christianity.
Adam was a Son of God who arrived on a fallen world. Old Testament editors left bits of the original story in the scriptures.
Thank you for explaining.
However, Noah sinned because of his already extant sinful nature. Creation had already fallen from perfection. There was no going back to it, not yet at least.
No pretending here.
Generic claims like this presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
On the other hand, there is plenty of physical, historical, monetary, archaeological, geographic, etc, evidence that everything in the Bible is true.
More waffle and posturing.
Try making an actual argument.
Specifically?
Because you say so?
Because some fairy tale says so?
:nono:
The Bible says God made Adam from the dust of the earth, and Eve from his rib, at the beginning of creation.
More unsupported claims.
Your claims that beings created by God cant be destroyed by God. That's not in the Bible. I don't need to prove what you imagine is between the lines.
The Israelites created a creation story using existing Mesopotamian legends.
You've been convinced that God wrote the Old Testament through whomever, its perfect and therefore your doubts are the problem. Every religion does that with their scripture.
Wheat and tares are one thing, the claim by the Israelite authors that there was only (1) wheat stalk in the entire world (who just happened to be their ancestor) is a red flag to wise people. But then Noah is drunk and passed out naked. Wheats and tares start all over again.
You mean you don't know that histories are often rewritten?
Even if Sadler wrote the UB its a far better explanation then the Israelites story.
I've never had to wrestle with the OT because I always knew that the God revealed by Jesus is the true God which trumps the God concept of the Israelites. Sewing the new cloth onto the old really did cause a worse tare just as Jesus warned.
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