The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

Kevin,

Romans 6:1-6 and following are all referring to is "SPIRIT BAPTISM" NOT WATER, which is the OLD BAPTISM OF JOHN.

Acts 1:5:
For John truly baptized with water; BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence.

Jesus gave this truth after he died for our sins, was buried and raised from the dead. These words were part of the last words he spoke before ascending to his Father.

Acts 1:2-9:
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

(3) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

(4) And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.

(5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

(6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

(9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

His final command to them was; "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT." ...NOT WATER.

Kevin, you are teaching a false doctrine. You are defying the words of Christ.

Jesus also said to Nicodemus:

John 3:5-7:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Except a man be BORN OF THE SPIRIT, HE "CANNOT ENTER" INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. "YE MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT."

Never once, in the scriptures, will you find "ye must be water baptized to enter into the Kingdom of God." There is NO salvation or eternal life received with H20, never was and never will be. "SPIRIT BAPTISM" is the ONE and ONLY ONE TRUE BAPTISM.

Now can the Word of God, TRUTH, make it MORE PLAIN? I think not.

Please Note:

(I hope everyone can see how Kevin writes his own bible.

One example out of numerous ones, Kevin states: "AFTER he was baptized, he went on his way, rejoicing... having a good conscience towards God."

Note how he ties in what is written in Peter, with what's written concerning the eunuch. He ADDS HIS OWN WORDS to "after he was baptized he went on his way rejoicing...WORDS ADDED...> "having a good conscience towards God."

Does it say that??...NO IT DOES NOT. He does this all the time concerning different subjects within God's Word.

Here he does it to try to convince others that the eunuch was not baptized with the holy spirit, but with water only. The eunuch, within the context, went away rejoicing because Philip expounded the scriptures to the eunuch and preached Christ to him. Philip, who was already baptized himself with the holy spirit and born again, led the eunuch, who believed what Philip taught concerning Christ, into being baptized according to what Jesus Christ taught..."BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST." This is the true reason why the eunuch could walk away "rejoicing." He was born of the Spirit and he had entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Now that's the truth of God's Word.

So sneaky of you Kevin...tsk, tsk.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

keep twistin and turning. It looks like you'ld be a good twister partner!

 

[Apollos]

The jailor is wating...

The jailor is wating...

Kevin -

I was wondering...

Was my post on the Philippian jailor unreadable? No one chose to comment on it from the anti-baptism side. Just wondering.

(Btw, keep up the good work. You are very logical and straight-forward. Some of the answers you receive are so... lame!)

 

[agape]

Re: The jailor is wating...

Re: The jailor is wating...

Originally posted by Apollos
Kevin -

(Btw, keep up the good work. You are very logical and straight-forward. Some of the answers you receive are so... lame!)

Unfortunately logical and straight only in your eyes because you see the Word of God with the same man-made religious cockeyed view as Kevin.

 

[Apollos]

In a pig's eye...

In a pig's eye...

agape -

Your thorough and eloquent refutation of my post on the jailor speaks for itself.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: The jailor is wating...

Re: Re: The jailor is wating...

Originally posted by agape
Unfortunately logical and straight only in your eyes because you see the Word of God with the same man-made religious cockeyed view as Kevin.

Agape wanted to know something about Holy Spirit vs. Water Baptism. I'm glad I could teach him...

This is not logical! It is clear there are two baptisms with only one being effectual with the message. Water baptism is a "work" performed by man and Spirit baptism is performed by Christ.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matt. 3:11 (KJV)

Spirit baptism has superceded water baptism......Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Cor. 5:16 (KJV)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)

Craig says that I am not being logical. Even though I have given him a bible reference for one baptism, he insist that it is not logical! This comes from a lack of proper scriptural interpretation. The prophet Joel said that God would "pour out His Spirit on all flesh." (Joel 2:28). "All flesh" to the Jew consisted of Jew or Gentile. The apostles on the Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus received the outpouring of the Spirit (Lk 24:48; Acts 2:1-4). When the house of Cornelius was receiving the gospel, Peter said, "Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, what was I, that I could withstand God?" (Acts 11:16-17). Peter and the Jewish brethren, who had not believed that what they were doing was fully pleasing to God, had to be shown that God indeed was approving their presence. There was a baptism of the Holy Spirit of the Gentiles, thus completing the prophesy of Joel and then Peter commanded that they be baptized in water (Acts 10:48). Holy Spirit does not supercede water baptism. Water baptism continues throughout the New Testament from this time, but Holy Spirit baptism does. The gift of the Spirit is manifested in the lives of many people from this time, but that was through the laying on of hands of the apostles (Acts 8:17; Acts 14:6).

Craig has made reference to 2 Cor. 5:16, but I fail to see a correlation. He also references 2 Cor. 5:17 which is a true statement, but has he failed to see how we get into Christ. Perhaps he will reference Galatians 3:26-27 in his next entry.

"Amen to that brother (Spirit baptism)! The confusion of rightly dividing God's word is clear within your statement! Your are claiming a message (Acts 2:38) that is void of two things....Christ die for yous sins and that His blood cleanses us from sins. The Pentecostal message is void of this truth! Faith in his blood is the very essence of our salvation unto eternal life. We are saved the moment be believe. Those at Pentecost did not have this faith and thus did not receive eternal life. The kingdom was put on hold and it was offered to the Gentiles because they did not believe. It is never even mentioned to them at Pentecost that Christ died for their sins. or that his shed blood washes away their sins. Where is the faith in what we believe in mentioned at Pentecost?"

Craig fail to understand that the gospel message is filled with that Christ died for out sin ( 1 Cor. 15:3). He shed his blood for out sins (Matthew 26:28;Eph 1:7), even those Gentiles that were "afar off" Acts 2:39; Eph 2:13). We have only that portion of the sermon that God wanted recorded from Pentecost, but what we have is sufficient to tell us that the Holy Spirit did not fall upon more of the Jews than the apostles, and that they that gladly heard the message "we baptized" (Acts 2:41) and the Lord added them to His church. Craig makes an assertion, "The kingdom was put on hold and not offered to the Gentiles." Where does Craig get a biblical record of the kingdom being put on hold? Does he not know that Paul preached of God's action to the Colossian church saying: "Giving thanks unto the Father...who had translated us out of darkness INTO THE KINGDOM of His dear Son" (Col. 1:12-13). Now, that tells me that the Kingdom was present tense. It was in actuality. It wasn't future, it wasn't put on hold. It was then and there and remains unto this day. Craig has been taught not to accept simple scripture. There are more verses that show the Kingdom of Christ to be in existence today, but what I have said should suffice. When Christ returns, he will deliver up the Kingdom to God (1 Cor. 15:24). If the Kingdom is on hold, then what is going to be delivered up? O, I know, Craig is going to put us through a seven years of Great Tribulation before Christ comes. He is going to have the church raptured and cars empty on the highway all over town. Imagine that, Christ returning and every eye not seeing him (Rev. 1:7).

Craig continues with these Biblical references:[Quote "Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; The apostles did not believe in his shed blood and they had no understanding of it. Their remission of sins came through water baptism. They were not baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ through faith."

The only water baptism of the apostles of Jesus Christ, with the exception of Paul's is evidenced by that of John's baptism or that of Jesus before they were sent out on the limited commission. If under John's baptism, it was to prepare them to receive the Lord when he would come, in the remission of their sins (Mark 1:3-4). Paul's baptism in water was to wash away his sins (Acts 22:16). The Hebrew writer said the blood of Christ purged our conscience from dead works (sin) to serve the living God. (Heb. 9:14). We were not purged from sins by the Holy Spirit. Also, I agree also that they were not baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit as the element. The apostles and those with them as they began to preach on Pentecost constituted the church, and the Lord added to the church those that gladly received His word and were baptized (Acts 2:47). No one can be added to the Church of the Lord Jesus and be eternally saved that will not be immersed for the remission of sins. Show the verse that refutes this, if you can!!!!

Craig tries to tell us that the “kingdom that is was put on hold” He believes that when Peter was preaching at Pentecost he was not converted to the Lord. He goes on to say that Paul converted Peter. Imagine that, Peter was preaching the gospel some 8-10 years before Paul began to preach, and during all that time he wasn’t converted. Paul said that when he first came to Jerusalem he came to see Peter, James and John who seemed to be pillers in the church (Gal. 2:9). Here is where Paul, I guess converts Peter. I do see where he had charged him to his face at Antioch, because he discriminated among his brethren (Gal. 2:11). I believe though, that Peter was an apostles at this time and needed not converting only correction.

Jesus is telling them the way to eternal life is faith in his blood but it offends them. Peter says that Jesus has the words but he does not say he has faith in it. Peter does say that he believes Jesus is the Son of God. Remember in Luke 22:32 Jesus said that he would be converted later on. Jesus said he chose the twelve and one is a devil. His choosing them was not based on their faith in his death, burial , and resurrection which baptizes us into the body by the Spirit. His choice was based on their belief that he was the Son of God and they could be a witness to his death."

Craig still dwells on Peter being converted. Jesus did mention that Peter would be converted, but this has reference to his repenting of his sins for denying the Lord three times (Mark 14:30; James 1:19; Luke 22:31-32). His choice of the apostles was based on His all knowing power on the hearts of all man. (John 15:19).

The Bible is so clear on baptism for the remission of sins. It was intended for every generation (Mark 16:15-16). Only those who will be immersed can be added to the church. (Acts 2:41-47). The church is the body of Christ (Col. 1:18). Christ is the savior of the body (Eph 5:23). The body of Christ will be delivered to God at Christ's return (1 Cor. 15:24). Since the church is the body and the body will go to heaven, its important to be in it. This takes place when someone is baptized into the body, the church (Gal 3:27). If you are not in the spiritual body of Christ as a result of faithful immersion you stand in jeporty of losing your soul.

JustAChristian

 

[Kevin]

Apollos,

Your thorough and eloquent refutation of my post on the jailor speaks for itself.

Hehehe... you have to remember that we are dealing with somebody who does not realize that doing something "with the mouth" means that the mouth is actually used!

If he can't grasp that simple concept, I doubt he will logically be able to deal with your post.

And by the way, thanks for your compliments and support. :up:

 

[Evangelion]

ROTFL... :up: :up:

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Acts 2 cames before acts 10.

Indeed. Everybody stop what you are doing and pay attention... c.moore and I agree on something!

Act2 is verifying that the Holy Ghost baptism came before water baptism which is proved in Acts 10.

No, all Acts 2:3-4 verifies is that the HS fell upon the aptostles, which gave them power (Acts 1:8). This does put away our old man of sin and make in Christ. The fact of the matter is when these same apostles went out and preached to the sinners in the first recorded gospel sermon, the believers were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48). You have yet to address this simple fact.

Another thing, in the Great Commission, Jesus commanded MAN to baptize people. When the Holy Spirit falls upon somebody, God does that at His choosing.

You also make a assumption that Acts 2 is meaning water baptism when there is still no water mentionin

There is no assumption. I have already shown you scriptual evidence that backs up the fact that Acts 2:38 is speaking of water baptism. Here it is again... try reading, comprehending, and actually addressing it this time instead of pretending like I've never addressed this issue:

As I've pointed out several times, baptism "in the name of the Lord" uses water, which is proven in Acts 10:47-48. Now, the people in Acts 2:38 were batpized "in the name of Jesus Christ". Compare the two:

• Baptism in the "name of the Lord"
• Baptism in the "name of Jesus Christ"

Is not Jesus Christ our Lord? YES HE IS. Both baptisms are in the name of the same person: Jesus Christ, our Lord. And since Acts 10:47-48 shows that baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water, then the baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 uses water also, for they are the same baptism in the same name of the same person!!! There's ONE baptism, and it's done the SAME way.

, baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us into Christ, and is what the apostles practiced when converting people.
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Don`t you see that being baptized in the name is spiritual.

Of course it's spiritual, you just don't seem to realize that it's performed with water (Acts 10:47-48 -- try READING this so I don't have to repeat myself OVER and OVER). Spirit baptism, which God does, NOT MAN (and it was MAN who was commanded to baptize), comes down and looks like tongues of fire, giving the recipients miraculous abilities. When was the last time you saw this happen to a new believer? This EXACT thing happened to the people in Numbers 11:25, and that certainly didn't put them into Christ!

I can`t see where it says in Acts 2:38 that they were baptized in the blood of Jesus.
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Look at what repentance is , and how is our sin forgiven, by the blood of Jesus,not water forgives , it`s Jesus that forgive, and make us white as snow.

Yes, I know that the blood of Jesus covers our sins. But it's ONLY going to benefit those who are IN Christ. It is through BAPTISM that we are IN Christ, at which point our sins are forgiven because of His blood. We get baptized so we can be in Christ and have our sins for forgiven through His blood, that's why I've been saying that baptism is FOR the remission of sins. The water doesn't cover our sins, and I've said this SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times so you can stop rambling about water not forgiving our sins WHEN I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT IT DID!!! You're just making an assumption that because we say baptism involves water, which it does, that it actually forgives sins, which we've never claimed!

Show me in scripture where it says that when one believes that they are baptized for the remission of sins as soon as they believe the word.
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Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Don't you realize that the eunuch was baptized by a man, and it involved WATER? The baptism you are speaking of, is NOT done by man, it is done by God. It falls from the sky! The baptism you are defending does not use water, this senario DOES. You picked a poor example.

Ac:11:14: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Ac:11:15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Ac:11:16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac:11:17: Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Ac:11:18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

This is Peter recounting Acts 10:44-48. The falling of the HS didn't save them, for why would Peter feel the need to have them baptized (in water) in the name of the Lord after the HS had already fallen upon them? In Acts 11:17, Peter is simply saying that it is undeniable that God also had a relationship with the Gentiles, and who could withstand God? That was the reason the HS fell upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, to prove that the Jews were no longer God's only chosen people. Why do you think it said in Acts 10:45 that the Jews were "astonished"? Because the HS had been poured out on Gentiles for the first time, and the Jews were acustomed to being God's ONLY chosen people. That (falling of HS) doesn't save anybody. If that's what put them "into Christ", then to be consistent, it also put the people in Numbers 11:25 "into Christ" (which is impossible, for He hadn't come yet)... for it was the SAME spirit, with the same results - power.

so Eunuch was Spiritual baptised when he believed


quote:
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Scripture?
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Ac:8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

That's funny, both Philip and the eunuch knew what is commanded by the Lord, for the eunuch said "see, here is WATER; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" That's the baptism commanded and that's what was practiced. The falling of the HS doesn't save anybody.

If that's what saves people, then why didn't I see the HS decending upon me as it did in the NT? Why? I certainly believe in the Lord Jesus and confess with the mouth that He is my Lord. Why am I not filled with all these great powers if this supposedly happened everytime a believer accepts Christ?

Again, the baptism mentioned in the great commission was commanded that MAN do it. Therefore, it has to be water baptism in the name of the Lord, for man can't baptize with the HS, God does that. So, the fact is that MAN is commanded to baptize, and Phillip (MAN) baptized the believer (the eunuch) with WATER. Too bad you can't accept this simple fact.

I get your point, c.moore. This isn't the first time I've seen you say this. You have every right to believe that, but that doesn't make you right.
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Thank god that this is just your opinion, and not God`s

Get this through your head - it is YOUR opinion that I'm stuck on milk and not ready for the meat. It is MY opinion that you are wrong. You can say something like "well, I have the word of God and it says you're wrong"... but I have the word of God also, and I think YOU are wrong. We will find out what God thinks for sure at judgement... you know... when we are judged by our works.

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

Romans 6:1-6 and following are all referring to is "SPIRIT BAPTISM" NOT WATER, which is the OLD BAPTISM OF JOHN.

You're short term memory crisis strikes again. I have told you MORE THAN ONCE that I am referring to baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48), and is entirely different that John's baptism (Acts 19). You just don't listen, do you?

Paul wrote about the baptism in Romans 6 and Paul practiced baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 19). The people in Acts 19 were in John's baptism and were re-baptized in the name of the Lord, which also uses WATER (Acts 10:47-48).

HS baptism falls from the sky and rests upon people's heads. GOD does this. The baptism that was commanded in the Great Commission commanded MAN to baptize. So, MAN practice this baptism in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47-48 by baptizing them in the name of the Lord with WATER.

HS baptism causes the recipients to have power. The people in Numbers 11:25 fell upon them, which game them power. This did NOT put them into Christ anymore than the falling of the HS did in the New Testament.

Kevin, you are teaching a false doctrine. You are defying the words of Christ.

Hardly.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Except a man be BORN OF THE SPIRIT, HE "CANNOT ENTER" INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. "YE MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT."

Wrong. The bible says that man must be born of WATER and the Spirit, not just of the Spirit. And this is exactly what was practiced by being baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38 - Acts 10:47-48).

One example out of numerous ones, Kevin states: "AFTER he was baptized, he went on his way, rejoicing... having a good conscience towards God."

Note how he ties in what is written in Peter, with what's written concerning the eunuch. He ADDS HIS OWN WORDS to "after he was baptized he went on his way rejoicing...WORDS ADDED...> "having a good conscience towards God."

Does it say that??...NO IT DOES NOT.

This is another example of your inability to use BASIC, and I mean BASIC reasoning and logic. By the way, did you type your last post "with your hands" without using your hands? Did you type your last post "with your hands" by doing it inwardly?

What I said is perfectly consistent. After the eunuch was preached Jesus, he was baptized into Christ, and he went on his way rejoicing. Now, give me one good reason why he would NOT have a good conscience towards God.

I have evidence to show that he did have a good conscience towards God - he obeyed the gospel that leads to salvation, and he went on his way rejoicing! Where's your evidence to show that he WOULDN'T have a good conscience towards God?

 

[c.moore]

[QUOTE by kevin]The fact of the matter is when these same apostles went out and preached to the sinners in the first recorded gospel sermon, the believers were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48). You have yet to address this simple fact. [/QUOTE]



Yes they used water to show what happen in the spiritual baptism.

kevin you keep putting the tree before the seed which in this case the spiritual baptism.

Now I see you take the name of Jesus Christ and throw the name in the water.
before you add water baptism where baptism is mention , now you add water where Jesus christ name is or the name of the LOrd.


Quote by kevin

Here it is again... try reading, comprehending, and actually addressing it this time instead of pretending like I've never addressed this issue:

As I've pointed out several times, baptism "in the name of the Lord" uses water, which is proven in Acts 10:47-48. Now, the people in Acts 2:38 were batpized "in the name of Jesus Christ". Compare the two:
· Baptism in the "name of the Lord"
· Baptism in the "name of Jesus Christ"



Quote c.moore
In Acts 10 was baptized first by the Holy Spirit .
Ac:10:47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Of course when you get spiritual baptized it`s because you are baptized into Jesus , and Jesus come into you and Jesus name is above all name and he get the honor , and Jesus get the glory and the pleasure of us being spiritual baptized in the name of the Lord.
we are for sure not baptized int he name of the devil, and the devil doesn`t baptize us.
To be truthful Jesus command us to be baptised in all three names.M't:28:18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
M't:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

You said Kevin:Baptism in the "name of the Lord"
· Baptism in the "name of Jesus Christ"

because of the names used gives you the right to interpretate this is all about visible water baptism is this correct ?

Is not Jesus Christ our Lord? YES HE IS. Both baptisms are in the name of the same person: Jesus Christ, our Lord. And since Acts 10:47-48 shows that baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water, then the baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 uses water also, for they are the same baptism in the same name of the same person!!! There's ONE baptism, and it's done the SAME way.

I guess this answers my question you do add water because of the names.

Yes, I know that the blood of Jesus covers our sins.

Indeed. Everybody stop what you are doing and pay attention... Kevin and I agree on something!

But it's ONLY going to benefit those who are IN Christ. It is through BAPTISM that we are IN Christ, at which point our sins are forgiven because of His blood. We get baptized so we can be in Christ and have our sins for forgiven through His blood, that's why I've been saying that baptism is FOR the remission of sins.

OOOOHHHHHHHH right kevin.

you are saying that we first have to get water baptized even before the blood of Jesus can be activated, and that we qualify to be forgiven?


You said Kevin
The water doesn't cover our sins, and I've said this SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times so you can stop rambling about water not forgiving our sins WHEN I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT IT DID!!! You're just making an assumption that because we say baptism involves waterwhich it does, that it actually forgives sins, which we've never claimed!

I am confussed here,or is this contridiction?

The baptism you are speaking of, is NOT done by man, it is done by God. It falls from the sky! The baptism you are defending does not use water

AMEN!

Get this through your head - it is YOUR opinion that I'm stuck on milk and not ready for the meat. It is MY opinion that you are wrong. You can say something like "well, I have the word of God and it says you're wrong"... but I have the word of God also, and I think YOU are wrong. We will find out what God thinks for sure at judgement... you know... [We will find out what God thinks for sure at judgement... you know... /QUOTE] We will find out what God thinks for sure at judgement... you know...

I hope you also know that when the truth hits you in the face , you realize that to to late, and you will lose some of your rewards, and God will not be so pleased with you Kevin when we are judge for our works praise God, because for God that would be dummm work.

Kevin I know you are saved , and you are my brother even though I don`t agree in alot of thing you believe, but please to for the golden rewards, not the ones that will burn when you are tested maybe with your paper rewards or wood rewards of your works.
Take all you can , and let please our Daddy Jesus Christ together,let us learn his will the way God wants not our own will and self pride and understanding, alway ready to be changed day by day.
You have heard the truth over, and over, the choice is in your hands, I want repeat the truth to you any more you have to make the change yourself Kevin.
See you in Heaven,just don`t deny Jesus as your Lord and savior.

Lord, I did my part of works show Kevin the truth , and Lord it`s up to you Lord Jesus to open kevin eyes.

Let God blesss you and your family.

peace shalone

 

[drbrumley]

When God separated Israel from other peoples so they would become His chosen people, He told them they must distinguish between clean and unclean animals. The distinction of unclean animals would separate Israel from the other nations.

But I have said to you, “You shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the LORD your God, who has separated you from the peoples. You shall therefore distinguish between clean animals and unclean, between unclean birds and clean, and you shall not make yourselves abominable by beast or by bird, or by any kind of living thing that creeps on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. And you shall be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine (Lev 20:24-26).

After Paul was saved, God gave Peter a vision (Acts 10:9-17). Peter’s vision showed there were no more clean and unclean animals for Israel. By this vision, God showed Peter that Israel was no longer His chosen people. However, He did not show Peter the new dispensation of the mystery that He would reveal to Paul. He also did not show Peter that there would be a new method of salvation. That’s why Peter preached the same message Christ had given him from the beginning, the circumcision gospel.

Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ; He is Lord of all; that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached” (Acts 10:34-37).

This was the gospel of faith-works and endurance for salvation which Christ taught while on earth (Mat 24:13,14; John 15:1-8). When we look at chapters 9-11 of Acts, the Holy Spirit shows us that water baptism was no longer necessary for salvation in this dispensation. Because God started the body of Christ with Paul’s conversion, the Holy Spirit showed us His new plan. How did He show this new plan? He did it in a marvelous way. Peter was sent to a Gentile’s house. He was told to go there without doubting. This was a strange command for Peter to receive, but he did as God told him. He went to the house of Cornelius and preached the gospel of the circumcision to them. While Peter was still preaching, before he commanded them to be baptized as he had earlier (Acts 2:38), the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word (Acts 10:44,45).

The Holy Spirit caused some amazing things by this event. The Holy Spirit’s work here would convince the circumcision believers that salvation was now open to the Gentiles. Wow! God had opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles, and we can see from the accounts of Paul’s conversion, that he was the one who would be sent to the Gentiles.

Acts 9: 15,16 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

Acts 22:17-21 Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, “Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.” 19 So I said, “Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.” 21 Then He said to me, “Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.”

Returning to Peter’s mission to Cornelius, we see that for the first time, the two baptisms of Acts 2:38 were reversed. Water baptism was performed after Holy Spirit baptism. Now, the Holy Spirit baptism was the one necessary for salvation. Water baptism became secondary for the first time.

We’re not even sure that God wanted these new Christians water baptized. Peter did a number of things here for the simple reason that the Lord had previously commanded them. Now, why did these changes take place? Because Paul was converted, given a new stewardship called the dispensation of the mystery, and a new gospel, the uncircumcision gospel which was also called the gospel of the grace of God.

Gal 2:7,8 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles).

Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

During Paul’s first two missionary journeys, we find that he baptized at least Crispus, Gaius, Stephanus’ household, Lydia and her household, and the jailor and his household. Why did he baptize these people? We don’t know for sure. But it seems that because Ananias had commanded him to be baptized, he carried on the practice. So, even in the dispensation of grace there were two baptisms for a while.

Soon it was revealed to Paul that water baptism was not part of his commission (1 Cor. 1:17). After that, he no longer baptized. But we must remember that water baptism was definitely an integral part of the circumcision apostles’ commission (Mat. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15-18). When Paul wrote he was not sent to baptize, he also was inspired to write, “By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13). Further, in Col 2:11,12 we see that as physical circumcision gave way to spiritual, “made without hands,” water baptism gave way to spiritual baptism, “through the faith of the operation of God.” Why did water baptism give way to spiritual baptism? It was because God set Israel aside in Acts 7 when Christ stood in judgment at the stoning of Stephen (Rom. 11:11,25; Acts 28:28; Isa. 3:13).

After Israel had been set aside, part of Paul’s ministry was to show Israel this fact. God pronounced for the final time, through Paul, that Israel had been set aside (Acts 28:28). This happened when Paul made his inspired judicial decree quoting Isaiah 6:9,10. The baptisms imposed on Israel were set aside until God would be dealing with Israel again in the tribulation. For instance, water baptism will be necessary for salvation again when Peter’s epistles will be in God’s program for the tribulation period (1 Pet. 3:20,21).

Now there is one baptism. After his Acts 28:28 decree, Paul was inspired to write Ephesians. In it he wrote Eph 4:4,5, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” One baptism? If there is only one baptism, which one is it? Is it water or Holy Spirit? It is Holy Spirit! Why? Because God has suspended the use of water baptism. It has been done away with because God is through with Israel for the time being. Now there is only one program. So, today there is one baptism by which we, who have trusted in Christ, are baptized into the body of Christ. That baptism identifies us with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-8). Water baptism has been set aside because God has set aside Israel.

Repost of Bob Hill's thesis on Baptism.

Which has yet to be addressed.

 

[Evangelion]

drbrumley -

Soon it was revealed to Paul that water baptism was not part of his commission (1 Cor. 1:17).

ROTFL. How do you intend to prove that this was "revealed to Paul"?

After that, he no longer baptized.

And how do you intend to prove this?

 

[JustAChristian]

Lerning Something From A Leper

Lerning Something From A Leper

Naaman was a very successful man. He was commander of the Syrian army, a great and honorable man in the eyes of his king, a victorious general, and a mighty man of valor. But, he had a terrible disease: leprosy. Please read 2 Kings 5:1-14 concerning Naaman.

Naaman learned from a young Israelite slave girl that there was a prophet in Israel who could heal him of his leprosy. As we read the account of how Naaman sought a cure for his leprosy, we may learn some valuable lessons about our own need for cleansing from an even greater malady than leprosy, that is sin.

Naaman thought his healing could be purchased. When the King of Syria granted him permission to go to Israel, Naaman "took with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold, and ten changes of clothing" (2 Kings 5:5). Apparently he thought he could pay someone in Israel to heal him.

Like Naaman, we cannot purchase our cleansing from sin. However, a price must be paid for our redemption, but not with "corruptible things, like silver or gold” (1 Peter 1:18). Christ paid the price for our redemption on the cross. The Apostle Peter states that Christians have been redeemed “with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19).

Naaman had an idea about how he thought his healing would take place. He said to himself, “He will surely come out to me, and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leprosy" (2 Kings 5:11). When the servant of Elisha the prophet told him to go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and his flesh would be restored and he would be clean (v. 10), he became furious. His preconceived ideas concerning his healing were wrong.

When it comes to our own cleansing from sin, we must also seek God’’s instructions instead of what we might think would work. We must not approach God’s word seeking to justify our current beliefs; rather, we must seek to know God’’s will through His word, and believe His word.

Naaman tried to substitute his own terms of obedience instead of the Lord’s. He did not want to wash in the Jordan River. He asked, "Are not the Abanah and the Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage" (2 Kings 5:12 NKJV). We must never try to substitute our own doctrines in the place of the teaching of God’’s word. Only through our obedience to His commands may we ever have the blessings attached to them.

Finally, Naaman humbled himself and obeyed the Lord’s instructions. Naaman could see no logical connection between dipping in the Jordan River and being cured of his leprosy, but he obeyed. Obedience brought its reward: Naaman was healed.
A penitent believer in Christ may not see the logical connection between being baptized (immersed) in water and having his sins washed away (Acts 2:38; 22:16). Certainly, as in the case of Naaman, it is not the water that saves. It is God who saves us, when we obey Him. Obedience has its reward: the cleansing of our sins.

JustAChristian

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
You're short term memory crisis strikes again.

LOL...it's not a memory problem, it's not listening to your made up stories of the bible which do not agree with the truth of God's Word.

First of all there is only one water baptism which came from John (Past)... and there IS..NOW...Spirit baptism which comes from Christ (Present).

Regarding Acts 19

In order to understand Acts 19, we need to read the previous verses in chapter 18.

Acts 18-23-28;
And after he [Paul] had spent some time [there], he departed, and went over [all] the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples.

Paul came to Ephesus and then left Aquila and Priscilla to go to Caesarea to go to his home base in Antioch. He spent some time there, departed and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order to build strength in the faithful disciples.

(24) And a Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

(25) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

A certain Jew named Apollos was an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures and taught the things of concerning the Lord, knowing ONLY THE BAPTISM OF JOHN. A person can go only as far as they have been taught. He had not learned the greatness of the new birth and the power of the holy spirit.

(26) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

He spoke boldly in the synagogues of what he knew and Aquila and Priscilla heard him and expounded to him the way of God more perfectly, exactly or precisely. They led Apollos into the fullness of the manifestations of holy spirit, teaching him how to operate and enjoy all that was available to him spiritually.

(27) And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Apollos, because he was meek, responded to the instruction given from Aquila and Priscilla. He had now "believed through grace" himself and could more adequately minister to God's people.

(28) For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Apollos mightily convinced the Jews/Judeans and successfully refuted them as he expounded unto them the way of God more perfectly.

Now Acts 19, verse 1:

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples.

These "certain disciples" were those who had disciplined themselves according to what Apollos had previously taught them. They had not yet been fully instructed.

Acts 19:2-5:
He said unto them. Have ye received [lambano - received into manifestation] the Holy Ghost [Spirit] since ye believed [upon believing?] And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost [holy spirit in manifestation].

And he said unto them. Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto Johns baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they [having] heard this, they were baptized in [into] the name of the Lord Jesus.

Apollos only took them as far as John's baptism in water and was not able then to teach them the fullness of all that Christ had accomplished for them and in them through his death and resurrection because he had not yet been fully instructed by Aquila and Priscilla at that time. They were then baptized INTO the name of the Lord Jesus, which means they were baptized with the true baptism of holy spirit. Proof of this is shown in the following verse.

Acts 19:6:
And [But] when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost [holy spirit in manifestation] came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul laid his hands on them and prayed that they should manifest the greatness of the gift of holy spirit which they were baptize with and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

There was no re-baptizing them in water. Paul taught them "BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost," the baptism that should come after John. Acts 19:4; "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

These Ephesians believed through grace, were born again and spoke in tongues.

The baptism in Romans 6:1-4 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER.

The baptism in Acts 10:47 and 48 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER. This is the first record in the Book of Acts to record that the uncircumcised, Gentile/nation were baptized with holy spirit and because of this they manifested this gift by speaking in tongues.

The baptism in Acts 2:38 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER..."and ye shall receive [lambano - receive into manifestation] the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST."

The baptism in Acts 19:1-7 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER...which did occur but only due to the lack of knowledge on Apollos' part which is clearly explained and which was corrected by the Apostle Paul who led them to the true baptism in the holy spirit.

quote:

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Except a man be BORN OF THE SPIRIT, HE "CANNOT ENTER" INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. "YE MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT."

Wrong. The bible says that man must be born of WATER and the Spirit, not just of the Spirit. And this is exactly what was practiced by being baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38 - Acts 10:47-48).

Well, the scriptures prove you "wrong" on all accounts. Did you do a thorough study of John 3:1-7?? Or did you just repeat what you were taught by those who hold onto man-made doctrine and beliefs?

John 3:5 is a figure of speech called "hendiadys" and means "Two words used, but one thing meant." Two words employed, but one thing, or idea, intended. One of the two words expresses the thing, and the other (of synonymous, or even different, signification, not a second thing or idea) intensifies it by being changed (if a noun) into an adjective of the superlative degree, which is, by this means, made especially emphatic.

John 3:5--This is literally, "Except a man shall have been born begotten of water and spirit." There is no article to either of the two nouns.

That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 and 8, where only the Spirit (the one) is mentioned.

The Lord is speaking to Nicodemus of "earthly things" (see verse 12). And as "a master in Israel," he knew (or ought to have known) perfectly well the prophecy of Ezekiel 36:25-27 concerning the kingdom (not the Church). Concerning Israel, in the day of their restoration to their own land, Jehovah had declared: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean....And I will put my spirit within you," etc.

The cleansing of that day is not be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.

Hence only one thing is meant:--"Except a man be begotten of water, yes--and spiritual water too, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The spiritual water stands, by another figure of speech (Metonymy), for the Holy Spirit...as is clear from John 7:38,39: "water--(But this space he of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive...)."

Hence there is no reference here to ceremonial or ecclesiastical water--but to that baptism of the Spirit, which is the one indispensable condition into the kingdom of God: a moral sphere, which includes and embraces the Church of God, here and now, as well as the future kingdom foretold by God through the prophets.
(Figures of Speech Used in the Bible by Bullinger, pp. 657, 664)

 

[Apollos]

God is NOT the author of confusion!!!

God is NOT the author of confusion!!!

Dr.B –

Why did you not answer the questions I requested from your statement of faith?
Why did you not tell us WHAT it involves for man to “ACCEPT” Jesus ???

My guess is that you did not want to take the time to “explain away” why “accepting” Jesus “looks” like it involves “works”, but (in your view) it really isn’t “works”. Well?

Instead, we got a “cut&paste” from Bob Hill. Normally I do not respond to c&p’s but I will extract a few points.

However, He did not show Peter the new dispensation of the mystery that He would reveal to Paul. He also did not show Peter that there would be a new method of salvation. That’s why Peter preached the same message Christ had given him from the beginning, the circumcision gospel.

Am I the only one here that can see how the makes the HS look like an incompetent bag of gas? Jesus sent the HS to guide the apostles into all the truth. These dispy thoughts would have us believe that the HS had the apostles confused, fragmented, and uncoordinated in function and purpose. This is the human thought process that it takes to believe this faction of dispensationalism.

Please continue to follow with me:

-The HS reveals to Peter (not Paul) in a vision (Acts 10) THREE times “what God has cleansed – make not common”.
-The HS tells Peter to go with Gentiles to Caesarea – “nothing doubting”.
-The HS falls on the Gentiles to confirm they (the Gentiles) are also to receive “repentance unto life” as the Jews have.
-The HS directs Peter to preach to Cornelius the D/B/&R of Christ.
-The HS directs Peter to command baptism “in the name” of Christ.

The HS did all of this and directed Peter into all of this; YET we are to accept your thoughts that the HS had another “method” of salvation that He was “hiding in the back”, to be revealed later. You saying basically that everything the HS & Peter did was WRONG. Now WHY would you do this?

I believe you do this so you can develop your erroneous beliefs about “faith only” and other erroneous dispy beliefs. This, in and of itself, is totally unbelievable !!! Get you head on straight !!

When we look at chapters 9-11 of Acts, the Holy Spirit shows us that water baptism was no longer necessary for salvation in this dispensation.

Baloney – the HS shows no such thing!! The church, Peter, and Paul continued to practice WATER BAPTISM past the time of the end of the books of Acts. This can be seen in Paul’s “Prison Epistles” and Titus! To say that Paul no longer baptized in water is to not only contradict both his preaching & teaching throughout, but it also would have us believe that Paul ALSO practiced error/confusion for many years until YOU claim he stopped! Once again, you have the HS doing a mighty LOUSY job in guiding the apostles and prophets in the truth!!

Because God started the body of Christ with Paul’s conversion…

More baloney!! The body is the church, and the church is the body – Col 1:18, Eph. 1:22,23. The body of Christ began in Acts 2:41 when God began to add believers to “the saved”. (See Acts 5:11, 7:38, 8:1,3 to see the church/body in existence BEFORE Paul’s time.)

Returning to Peter’s mission to Cornelius, we see that for the first time, the two baptisms of Acts 2:38 were reversed.

We do?? In Acts 2 we see the miraculous outpouring of the HS the Jews, the word (d/b/r) is preached, water baptism in the name of Christ, and people are saved.
In Acts 10 we see the miraculous outpouring of the HS on the Gentiles, the word (d/b/r) is preached, water baptism in the name of Christ, and people are saved.

The only difference I see in these two occasions is that the Jews got to preach both times. I hardily suggest a thorough reading of not just Acts 10, but also chapter ELEVEN to get the complete order of the events!!

We’re not even sure that God wanted these new Christians water baptized. Peter did a number of things here for the simple reason that the Lord had previously commanded them.

Amazing! Once again the HS could not guide Peter into the truth. He must have roamed around aimlessly for YEARS without knowing “the plan”. But the plan was for ALL nations to be water baptized into Christ! The HS and Peter had it right!! (You are not “sure” because your doctrine conflicts with truth!)

During Paul’s first two missionary journeys, we find that he baptized at least Crispus, Gaius, Stephanus’ household, Lydia and her household, and the jailor and his household. Why did he baptize these people? We don’t know for sure.

Still unsure about your doctrine – I can certainly see why!!! If my doctrine had, not only the HS and Peter, but Paul also, going around teaching & practicing things that were wrong or could not be explained, I think I would “punt” !!!

I absolutely “marvel” that you attempt to believe Paul, who was under the divine guidance of the HS, went around for YEARS teaching and practicing WATER BAPTISM, and you are not sure as to why. Astounding! When does your group put on the “Dog & Pony” show to go with this ??????

Soon it was revealed to Paul that water baptism was not part of his commission (1 Cor. 1:17).

Pauls teaching and practice both BEFORE this time of writing 1 Corinthians and AFTER show that you mis-apply and mis-understand the passage (1:17) in order to keep your dispy doctrine. In this verse Paul is merely stating that his primary purpose was not to (water) baptize, but to preach. Paul knew others could do the dunking!!

You truly disappoint me Dr.B !!!

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

[QUOTE by kevin]The fact of the matter is when these same apostles went out and preached to the sinners in the first recorded gospel sermon, the believers were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48). You have yet to address this simple fact.



Yes they used water to show what happen in the spiritual baptism.

No, what happened in the HS baptism is that the Gentiles had the ability to speak in tounges. Again, this same thing (miraculous ablilities) happended to the people in Numbers 11:25, and it didn't put them into Christ, and nor did the falling of the HS put the Gentiles into Christ. The falling of the HS is not baptism of the Lord, which happened after the Spirit fell on them, and certainly doesn't represtent what the falling of the HS does.

Again, how could the falling of the HS be the baptism spoken of in the Great Commission? The baptism commanded in the Great Commission was commanded that MAN should do it, not God. Man can perfrom water baptism in the name of the Lord, and they did. When the HS falls on somebody,man isn't doing that, God is!

Now I see you take the name of Jesus Christ and throw the name in the water.
before you add water baptism where baptism is mention , now you add water where Jesus christ name is or the name of the LOrd.

It's hard to debate a person that doesn't listen to what I say. Can you show me anywhere in this ENTIRE baptism thead that I said people needed to be baptized "in the name of water"? Anywhere? I'll say it again, and this time pay close attention. I'm saying that baptism in the name of the Lord USES or INVOLVES water, that does NOT change the name in which the baptism is performed.

There was a rock band in the 1980's an 1990's called Def Lepard. They used electric guitars. Now, just because the band Def Lepard used electric guitars, did their band name change to "electric guitars"?! NO! So, just because baptim in the name of the Lord uses water, does not chang the baptism to "in the name of water".

Here, I'll break it down verse by verse!:

Acts 10:47-48
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?

What is the element that Peter mentions that is included in baptism? Can anyone forbid __________ that these should not be _________. It's WATER. Now, the question is, what baptism is Peter referring to? Next verse:

48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Peter was referring to baptism "in the name of the Lord", which uses water, just as HE SAID. Yet, even though Peter said it uses water, he still called it baptism in the name of the Lord, not baptism in the name of water!!

Quote c.moore
In Acts 10 was baptized first by the Holy Spirit .
Ac:10:47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Yeah, and what's your point? As I've said, the people in Numbers 11:25 also had the HS fall upon them. Did that put them into Christ? Of course not, and neither did it for the Gentiles, which is why Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord (for he was commanded to baptize people in this manner in the Great Commission), because that's what put's them into Christ, not the falling of the HS!

OOOOHHHHHHHH right kevin.

you are saying that we first have to get water baptized even before the blood of Jesus can be activated, and that we qualify to be forgiven?

I'm saying that we need to be baptized FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), which is done by the blood of Jesus. He who has died has been freed from sin (Romans 6:7). How can we die with Christ without being baptized into His death? We become in Christ through baptism (Gal. 3:27). Are you suggesting that people who are not in Christ have their sins forgiven and will go to heaven?

Christ's blood indeed covers all sins, and is available to those who OBEY the gospel and become in Christ. The Bible is quite clear that baptism is the means that God has chosen that puts us in Christ (Gal. 3:27).

The water doesn't cover our sins, and I've said this SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times so you can stop rambling about water not forgiving our sins WHEN I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT IT DID!!! You're just making an assumption that because we say baptism involves waterwhich it does, that it actually forgives sins, which we've never claimed!

I am confussed here,or is this contridiction?

I'll try to make it more clear. The baptism in the name of the Lord uses water. I have always claimed this. However, while baptism in the name of the Lord uses water, I have never claimed that it is the water which actually cleanses our sins, it is the blood of Jesus (see above). So, I was saying that you are making an assumption that we believe water cleanses our sin, just because we believe water is used in the name of the Lord. In other words, just because we believe baptism in the name of the Lord uses water (which it does), does not mean that we believe that the water itself forgives sin. Is that better?

The baptism you are speaking of, is NOT done by man, it is done by God. It falls from the sky! The baptism you are defending does not use water
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




AMEN!

Don't you realize that the baptism spoken of in the Great Commission (the ONE baptism) was commanded for MAN to do it? Who did Jesus command to go out into the world and preach and baptize? MAN, not GOD! And you just agreed that baptism that you are speaking of (HS baptism) is not done by man, and therefore is NOT the baptism mentioned in the Great Commission (the ONE baptism)! Thanks for helping to prove my point.

See you in Heaven,just don`t deny Jesus as your Lord and savior.

I hope to see you in Heaven, c.moore (sincerely). And no, I certainly have no intention of denying the only One who can save me.

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

Regarding Acts 19

In order to understand Acts 19, we need to read the previous verses in chapter 18.

Acts 18-23-28;
And after he [Paul] had spent some time [there], he departed, and went over [all] the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples.

Paul came to Ephesus and then left Aquila and Priscilla to go to Caesarea to go to his home base in Antioch. He spent some time there, departed and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order to build strength in the faithful disciples.

(24) And a Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

(25) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

A certain Jew named Apollos was an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures and taught the things of concerning the Lord, knowing ONLY THE BAPTISM OF JOHN. A person can go only as far as they have been taught. He had not learned the greatness of the new birth and the power of the holy spirit.

(26) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

He spoke boldly in the synagogues of what he knew and Aquila and Priscilla heard him and expounded to him the way of God more perfectly, exactly or precisely. They led Apollos into the fullness of the manifestations of holy spirit, teaching him how to operate and enjoy all that was available to him spiritually.

(27) And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Apollos, because he was meek, responded to the instruction given from Aquila and Priscilla. He had now "believed through grace" himself and could more adequately minister to God's people.

(28) For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Apollos mightily convinced the Jews/Judeans and successfully refuted them as he expounded unto them the way of God more perfectly.

Now Acts 19, verse 1:

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples.

These "certain disciples" were those who had disciplined themselves according to what Apollos had previously taught them. They had not yet been fully instructed.

Acts 19:2-5:
He said unto them. Have ye received [lambano - received into manifestation] the Holy Ghost [Spirit] since ye believed [upon believing?] And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost [holy spirit in manifestation].

And he said unto them. Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto Johns baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they [having] heard this, they were baptized in [into] the name of the Lord Jesus.

But what you fail to realize is that being baptized in the name of the Lord involves water!

Acts 10:47-48
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?

What is the element that Peter mentions that is included in baptism? Can anyone forbid __________ that these should not be _________. It's WATER. Now, the question is, what baptism is Peter referring to? Next verse:

48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Peter was referring to baptism "in the name of the Lord", which uses water, just as HE SAID.

Paul laid his hands on them and prayed that they should manifest the greatness of the gift of holy spirit which they were baptize with and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

The people in Numbers 11:25 also had the HS fall upon them, giving them the ability to prophecy! The same spirit did the same thing for both parties - it gave them power. The receiving of the HS in Numbers 11:25 didn't put them into Christ (which was impossible then) any more than when the disciples of John recieved the HS. What put them into Christ was being baptized in the name of the Lord, which was done before Paul laid hands on them. Praying to God and laying upon hands is NOT baptism in the name of the Lord. We have a clear illustration of how people are batized in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48 - WATER.

The baptism in Romans 6:1-4 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER.

Wrong. I've already addressed this in my other post to you. Try addressing the points instead of chanting your broken record.

Wrong. The bible says that man must be born of WATER and the Spirit, not just of the Spirit. And this is exactly what was practiced by being baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38 - Acts 10:47-48).
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Well, the scriptures prove you "wrong" on all accounts.

No they don't, they support me.

Did you do a thorough study of John 3:1-7?? Or did you just repeat what you were taught by those who hold onto man-made doctrine and beliefs?

It doesn't take a Bible scholar to realize that Jesus is exaplaining the concept that one must be reborn in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus answers this question by saying that one needs to be born of water and the spirit to be reborn, which is exactly what was practiced in the NT (Acts 10:47-48, Acts 2:38).

John 3:5--This is literally, "Except a man shall have been born begotten of water and spirit." There is no article to either of the two nouns.

That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 and 8, where only the Spirit (the one) is mentioned.

This has no bearing on the fact that baptism in the name of the Lord uses water. Hebrews 10:22 also shows the use of water.

The cleansing of that day is not be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.

Acts 10:47-48 and Heb. 10:22 disagrees.

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

I'm still wondering if you type your posts "with the hands" without using your hands.

 

[JustAChristian]

Will Be Away A Few Days...

Will Be Away A Few Days...

To the thread,

I wanted you to know that I have to be away from the thread for a week or so. I have to travel to Tennessee for a granddaughter's surgery. Hope you all fair well during the coming week and achieve some progress in the Lord in this discussion.

In Christ,
JustAChristian