The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

agape

New member
Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape - so, no answers from you yet? Not even the "typology" and "obedience parables" questions? Very well.
LOL. You really don't fool me one bit. "Your typology thingy" fell down a long time ago. :rolleyes:

NOTE: Taken from Ephesians 2:4-9, which is the NC and addressed to the born-again Christians...and not in "parables," which was written to Israel and of which you haven't a clue to its meaning.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The most I can do for God is to accept my righteousness in Christ which cost him his life and to do my utmost for His Highest because I love Him and His Son and not slap Him in the face with unbelief by claiming grace + works for salvation, which is no different than saying he died in vain.

Accepting God's full grace for salvation and eternal life is being humble and meek before Him.

Adding works to God's Grace for salvation, which only Christ could bring, is nothing but man-made religion mingled with pride and ego.
 

HopeofGlory

New member
agape,

You're doing a great job defending the power of God unto salvation against the unbelievers on this thread. :)

They have no spiritual understanding of the new creature created in Christ Jesus. They are of this world and do mind the things of this world but we sit together with Christ in heaven.
Our salvation is eternally secure as Christ is eternally secure for we are one with Him.

In Christ
Craig
 

Kevin

New member
c.moore,

Didn`t I answer your question about the spiritual baptism ,

No, you didn't. Evangelion and I have been asking how spirit baptism represents the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer like water baptism does. Again:

In water baptism -
  • You go down into the water. This represents the death.
  • You completely immersed in water. This represents the burial.
  • You come out of the water. This represents the resurrection... we are born again.

Paul says in Romans 6 that we are baptized into His death, we put away our man of sin by burying him, and we share in the likeness of His resurrection. Only water baptism can represent these three things (See above). How does spirit baptism represent this?

Spirit baptism is described in Acts 2:3 as appearing as tongues of fire that decends and rested upon the heads of the apostles. How does this represent the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer? Evangelion and I have shown how water baptism does.... now how does spirit baptism fit that bill? How? Your borrowed arguement didn't address that.

Not only this, but Paul, the author of Romans 6, practiced by baptizing in the name of the Lord, as even your borrowed arguement pointed out. Baptism in the name of the Lord is done with WATER (Acts 10:47-48). Paul practiced what he preached - water baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 19:5). How do you reconcile this fact?

, John’s Disciples Receive Spiritual Baptism (Acts 19).
1. Paul "came to Ephesus" and there he found 12 "disciples." There is much debate on whether they were saved or lost.
2. Paul asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They were "disciples" and Paul infers that they had "believed." I understand this to mean they were saved.
3. To answer his question they said, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." They had "believed" with limited knowledge. They were ignorant of the Spirit.
4. Paul asked a second question, "Into what were you baptized?" They said, "Into John’s baptism." We know John prophesied of the baptism of the Holy Spirit to come. They obviously did not know this. It is logical that men may have been followers of Apollos who "knew only the baptism of John" (cf. 18:24-28).
5. Paul then launched into a sermon on John as the forerunner of Christ, that John’s message was "that they should believe on Him who would come after Him, that is on Christ Jesus."
6. No doubt Paul informed that John had said, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (Jn.3:30) and "He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry" (Mt.3:11). He went on to give them the full gospel.
7. These "disciples" must have been like OT saints. They wholeheartedly believed what they knew, they just didn’t know enough. Note that "when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." They believed on Jesus.

LOL! The author of your borrowed arguement is helping MY arguement, not yours! In the above quote, the author of your borrowed arguement says that "John's Disciples Receive Spiritual Baptism (Acts 19)." Guess how they were baptized, c.moore! They were baptized in the name of the Lord, the same baptism I'VE BEEN PREACHING THIS ENTIRE TIME. Being baptized in the name of the Lord uses WATER, as proven in Acts 10:47-48. He is proving my point. Perhaps you should read the material a little closer before you copy and paste in attempt to answer my questions.
 
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Kevin

New member
Agape,

I already made up my mind silly. Keep your works...I 'll stick with God's Grace ALONE.

Short term memory? When did I ever question that we were saved by "GRACE" alone? I've been questioning that we are saved by grace through faith "ALONE" (which is not printed in that verse... as much as you'd like it to be).

So tell me agape, how can one confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus with faith "ALONE". Even you listed that in the requirements for salvation.

TA TA... :)
 
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JustAChristian

New member
Re: Re: Didn't Somebody Do The Benediction?

Re: Re: Didn't Somebody Do The Benediction?

Originally posted by agape
What a "COP OUT" JAC...couldn't handle the truth anymore...eh?

Evangelion might be your "god," but he certainly is not mine. :rolleyes:

I'll take AMEN..."SO BE IT" from THE ONE AND ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. :D

Btw, Evangelion...all your thumbs up make you look kind of foolish since JAC has been PROVEN WRONG each and every time. :p

I think you both deserve a :down:

Agape,

You're barking like a coon hound at first tree! You don't know if a coon is up there, but you want him to know you're at the bottom! Keep your shirt on. I didn't say I was finished! Might as well be! It's like talking to a stone wall to reply to you. And, by the way, get the first scripture reference correct in your 1st paragraph. John 5:13 has nothing to do with your subject.

JustAChristian
 

Evangelion

New member
Agape -

"Your typology thingy" fell down a long time ago.

Really? Does this mean that you showed how "Spirit baptism" fulfils the typology of death, burial, and resurrection? If so - where did you post your exposition? If not - how can my typology argument have "fallen down"?

Looking forward to your explanation. :)
 

HopeofGlory

New member
New man created in Christ!

New man created in Christ!

Matt. 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

The transfiguration of Christ was a major revelation to Peter, James, and John and they were instructed to reveal it to no man. The reason it was withheld from Israel during the gospel of the kingdom and revealed later in the gospel of grace points to a clear difference in the two messages.

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24

The witness of the transfigured glorified Christ is of extreme importance to the body of Christ for it displays the power of God unto salvation, the hope of our glorification (Rom 5:2), and is the foundation of our faith (Col 1:27). The glorified Christ is our example of the rapture when we rise to meet Him in the air ( 1 Cor 15:51-53). This calling will occur before that wicked one is revealed (2 Thess 2:7). The body of Christ is not appointed to wrath (Rom 5:9, 1 Thess 1:10) neither of Satan (Rev 12:12) or the Lord Jesus (Rev 6:16) and will be caught up as John ( Rev 4:1-2) then the great tribulation (Rev 2:22) will begin.

The risen Lord from the dead in His flesh and bone body was a sign to Israel of the resurrection in the last day (Rev 20:5). He was not yet glorified for He had not ascended to the Father (John 17:5). After the ascension all things had become new and all things were of God.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Cor. 5:16
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)

This witness of the glorified Christ was required to be an apostle after the ascension also all the authors of the balance of the New Testament were eye witnesses to His glorification. Paul was chosen by Christ and he took the place of the fallen Judas. This clearly marks the turning from Israel to the Gentiles with the gospel of grace revealed through Paul. Christ did not personally choose Mathias as He did the twelve and Paul. Peter, James, John, and Paul were the witnesses of the glorified Christ and it is the hope of glory to the body of Christ. The author of Jude is unknown but it speaks of His glory.

The Pauline account of the glorified Christ must be understood as the image referred to pertaining to His ascension and it is not His natural body. Paul could not testify to the natural resurrection because he did not witness it.

Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

The above account is what Paul understands when he refers to the risen Christ and is what we must believe when Paul refers to the power of the resurrection. Our hope, our calling, our message is in the glorified Christ not the risen Lord.

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col. 1:27
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Col. 1:28

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2 Thess. 2:13
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thess. 2:14 (KJV)


"Buried with Him in baptism, in which also ye are risen with Him"(Col.2:12).We are baptized into His death and He "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:6).

The main emphasis of the above verses points to the ascended Christ not the risen Lord and it is this witness of Paul that separates the Gospel of the kingdom and the revealed Gospel of grace to Paul. "risen with Him" Paul understands is to be "in heavenly places"



We Will Be Changed

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Cor. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

2 Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col. 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1 Cor. 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Jesus in the flesh was a witness to Israel of things pertaining to the flesh. Resurrection of the flesh, water baptism of the flesh, gifts of the Spirit manifested on the flesh, and the hope of an earthly kingdom were all of this world and were seen with the eye and understood by the natural man.

Christ was glorified for a moment at His transfiguration as a witness to what would occur at His ascension when He receive a Spiritual body. Ascension (spiritual rapture), baptism by the Spirit, Spirit manifested in us, and the hope of our eternal kingdom in heaven are not seen with the eye and not understood by the natural man.

For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 2 Cor. 4:17
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2 Cor. 4:18


John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Meat in the above verses refers to the literal body of Christ. “Meat which perisheth” represents His body manifested in the flesh and includes His resurrected body. “Meat which endureth” represents the His Spiritual body as seen by Paul on Damascus road after His ascension. Our Savior is pointing the way to everlasting life through His Spiritual body. “Eating” his flesh and “drinking” his blood was a statement the apostles were not able to accept because they understood it in a natural sense. This statement made it impossible for them to receive Him in the natural realm. Spiritually we receive His body and blood to the inner man.

2 Cor. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Today all things are of God in a Spiritual sense or better to say are not perceived with the eye and includes all things that are received by those in Christ. Paul is revealing the mystery of the body of Christ. We are no longer to follow the Jesus of the flesh that was manifested to Israel but are to follow the glorified Christ manifested to Paul. The marching orders of the gospel of the kingdom were to Israel through Jesus while He was in the flesh and includes the resurrection. We are not to receive those orders but are to follow the orders of the glorified Christ revealed through Paul thus becoming the new man.

In Christ
Craig
 

Apollos

New member
Too much talk - No answers!!

Too much talk - No answers!!

agape -

Speaking of not answering questions, you certainly did not answer mine. You and Freak have alot to say until you are cornered, and then you ignore what you please.

Also, before now it was your false doctrine of "faith only", and I see now it is called "grace only". Which is it - grace - faith - or BOTH maybe, Hmmmmm????? Be consistent!!

And you know I rubbed your nose in "it" when I asked you about REPENTANCE and then CONFESSION. Are you ever going to answer how these "works" fir into your skewed theology ??

You talk too much - offer too little!!
 

Apollos

New member
OSAS - bah!!

OSAS - bah!!

We "have" eternal life in prospect only. It is promised to those who are faithful until the end.

Paul's propectus to the Philippians...

Chapter 3:

13
- Brethren, I count not myself to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before,

14
I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


Paul knew the truth. Too many others sadly do NOT !!
 

agape

New member
Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape -

Really? Does this mean that you showed how "Spirit baptism" fulfils the typology of death, burial, and resurrection? If so - where did you post your exposition? If not - how can my typology argument have "fallen down"?

Looking forward to your explanation. :)
Yes, really.

John's baptism of "physical" water represented Christ's baptism of "spiritual" water, which could only take place after Jesus' literal death, buriel and resurrection took place. Water baptism was the physical and temporary "outward cleansing" of the spirit baptism which is the spiritual, eternal "inward cleansing." Water baptism could not literally bring salvation and eternal life to no one, but spirit baptism did and continues to do so.

The lesser physical, temporal, type of water baptism given by John was replaced with the greater spirit baptism which is given by Christ.

Romans 6:1-6:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Key verse to understand that the baptism Paul refers to is nothing but "baptism in holy spirit." After we are saved and born again by grace are we to continue in sin?

(2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

FIRST STAGE: Baptized with holy spirit INTO Jesus Christ, baptized INTO his death.

Could John's water baptism do this: NO - Jesus Christ had not yet died for our sins with John's water baptism and therefore it was only a type or symbolic of the greater baptism to come by Christ.

(4a) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death....

SECOND STAGE: Buried WITH Christ into his death.

Could John's water baptism do this: NO Christ had not yet died and was therefore not yet buried.

(4b) ...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

THIRD STAGE: Raised WITH Christ...THAT WE SHOULD "WALK" IN THE NEWNESS OF LIFE.

Could John's water baptism do this? NO

(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified WITH Christ through the baptism in holy spirit that the body of sin might be "destroyed"...

Could John's water baptism do this. ABSOLUTEL NOT

Water baptism could only REPRESENT the true and greater baptism in the spirit by Jesus Christ.

Now which baptism is the "ONE BAPTISM" spoken about in Ephesians 4:5 - "One Lord, one faith, one baptism?"

JESUS HIMSELF SAID:

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
 

agape

New member
Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
So tell me agape, how can one confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus with faith "ALONE"
Because it is by faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior NOT WORKS that we are saved. It is FAITH ALONE, WITHOUT WORKS. So simple to understand. I don't know why you and others have such a problem with it. Perhaps it's your religious upbringing and you never did or did not know how to do Acts 17:11. You just took someone else's word for it. I don't know. You are defending what you were taught to believe, not the gospel of the good news of salvation. I don't have a problem believing what the Word of God teaches.

Ephesians 2:8,9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved by grace, and by grace alone, "through" faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES. We cannot do a blessed thing for our salvation, it is the GIFT OF GOD, by His Grace, His favor to us, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. Clear and simple. So, we need to stop ADDING WORKS for salvation. We are already saved by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ accomplished our salvation for us through his life, suffering, death, resurrection and ascension. :)
 

agape

New member
Originally posted by HopeofGlory
agape,

You're doing a great job defending the power of God unto salvation against the unbelievers on this thread. :)

They have no spiritual understanding of the new creature created in Christ Jesus. They are of this world and do mind the things of this world but we sit together with Christ in heaven.
Our salvation is eternally secure as Christ is eternally secure for we are one with Him.

In Christ
Craig
Thanks HopeofGlory. I enjoyed your recent post:

Today all things are of God in a Spiritual sense or better to say are not perceived with the eye and includes all things that are received by those in Christ. Paul is revealing the mystery of the body of Christ. We are no longer to follow the Jesus of the flesh that was manifested to Israel but are to follow the glorified Christ manifested to Paul. The marching orders of the gospel of the kingdom were to Israel through Jesus while He was in the flesh and includes the resurrection. We are not to receive those orders but are to follow the orders of the glorified Christ revealed through Paul thus becoming the new man.

Very well stated. :)
 

Apollos

New member
We must "accept" the gift!!

We must "accept" the gift!!

agape -

You are the one sounding like a broken record here. Please join the conversation...

It has been clearly, without querstion, undeniably established here that man MUST DO SOMETHING in order to appropriate the salvation God offers be his grace.

We just need to discuss just WHAT IT IS that MAN MUST DO in order for God to bestow that salvation on him!

What distinguishes the lost man from the saved man ???

Answer: What the saved man DOES !!

Want to join the conversation now agape ??? Hmmm???
 

Evangelion

New member
Hope Of Glory -

Matt. 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

The transfiguration of Christ was a major revelation to Peter, James, and John and they were instructed to reveal it to no man. The reason it was withheld from Israel during the gospel of the kingdom and revealed later in the gospel of grace points to a clear difference in the two messages.

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24

The witness of the transfigured glorified Christ is of extreme importance to the body of Christ for it displays the power of God unto salvation, the hope of our glorification (Rom 5:2), and is the foundation of our faith (Col 1:27). The glorified Christ is our example of the rapture when we rise to meet Him in the air ( 1 Cor 15:51-53). This calling will occur before that wicked one is revealed (2 Thess 2:7). The body of Christ is not appointed to wrath (Rom 5:9, 1 Thess 1:10) neither of Satan (Rev 12:12) or the Lord Jesus (Rev 6:16) and will be caught up as John ( Rev 4:1-2) then the great tribulation (Rev 2:22) will begin.

The risen Lord from the dead in His flesh and bone body was a sign to Israel of the resurrection in the last day (Rev 20:5). He was not yet glorified for He had not ascended to the Father (John 17:5). After the ascension all things had become new and all things were of God.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Cor. 5:16
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)

This witness of the glorified Christ was required to be an apostle after the ascension also all the authors of the balance of the New Testament were eye witnesses to His glorification. Paul was chosen by Christ and he took the place of the fallen Judas. This clearly marks the turning from Israel to the Gentiles with the gospel of grace revealed through Paul. Christ did not personally choose Mathias as He did the twelve and Paul. Peter, James, John, and Paul were the witnesses of the glorified Christ and it is the hope of glory to the body of Christ. The author of Jude is unknown but it speaks of His glory.

The Pauline account of the glorified Christ must be understood as the image referred to pertaining to His ascension and it is not His natural body. Paul could not testify to the natural resurrection because he did not witness it.

Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

The above account is what Paul understands when he refers to the risen Christ and is what we must believe when Paul refers to the power of the resurrection. Our hope, our calling, our message is in the glorified Christ not the risen Lord.

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col. 1:27
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Col. 1:28

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2 Thess. 2:13
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thess. 2:14 (KJV)


"Buried with Him in baptism, in which also ye are risen with Him"(Col.2:12).We are baptized into His death and He "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:6).

The main emphasis of the above verses points to the ascended Christ not the risen Lord and it is this witness of Paul that separates the Gospel of the kingdom and the revealed Gospel of grace to Paul. "risen with Him" Paul understands is to be "in heavenly places"



We Will Be Changed

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Cor. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

2 Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col. 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1 Cor. 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Jesus in the flesh was a witness to Israel of things pertaining to the flesh. Resurrection of the flesh, water baptism of the flesh, gifts of the Spirit manifested on the flesh, and the hope of an earthly kingdom were all of this world and were seen with the eye and understood by the natural man.

Christ was glorified for a moment at His transfiguration as a witness to what would occur at His ascension when He receive a Spiritual body. Ascension (spiritual rapture), baptism by the Spirit, Spirit manifested in us, and the hope of our eternal kingdom in heaven are not seen with the eye and not understood by the natural man.

For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 2 Cor. 4:17
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2 Cor. 4:18


John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Meat in the above verses refers to the literal body of Christ. “Meat which perisheth” represents His body manifested in the flesh and includes His resurrected body. “Meat which endureth” represents the His Spiritual body as seen by Paul on Damascus road after His ascension. Our Savior is pointing the way to everlasting life through His Spiritual body. “Eating” his flesh and “drinking” his blood was a statement the apostles were not able to accept because they understood it in a natural sense. This statement made it impossible for them to receive Him in the natural realm. Spiritually we receive His body and blood to the inner man.

2 Cor. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Today all things are of God in a Spiritual sense or better to say are not perceived with the eye and includes all things that are received by those in Christ. Paul is revealing the mystery of the body of Christ. We are no longer to follow the Jesus of the flesh that was manifested to Israel but are to follow the glorified Christ manifested to Paul. The marching orders of the gospel of the kingdom were to Israel through Jesus while He was in the flesh and includes the resurrection. We are not to receive those orders but are to follow the orders of the glorified Christ revealed through Paul thus becoming the new man.

Relevance? :)
 

Evangelion

New member
Agape -

John's baptism of "physical" water represented Christ's baptism of "spiritual" water, which could only take place after Jesus' literal death, buriel and resurrection took place. Water baptism was the physical and temporary "outward cleansing" of the spirit baptism which is the spiritual, eternal "inward cleansing." Water baptism could not literally bring salvation and eternal life to no one, but spirit baptism did and continues to do so.

The lesser physical, temporal, type of water baptism given by John was replaced with the greater spirit baptism which is given by Christ.

Romans 6:1-6:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Key verse to understand that the baptism Paul refers to is nothing but "baptism in holy spirit." After we are saved and born again by grace are we to continue in sin?

(2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

FIRST STAGE: Baptized with holy spirit INTO Jesus Christ, baptized INTO his death.

Could John's water baptism do this: NO - Jesus Christ had not yet died for our sins with John's water baptism and therefore it was only a type or symbolic of the greater baptism to come by Christ.

(4a) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death....

SECOND STAGE: Buried WITH Christ into his death.

Could John's water baptism do this: NO Christ had not yet died and was therefore not yet buried.

(4b) ...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

THIRD STAGE: Raised WITH Christ...THAT WE SHOULD "WALK" IN THE NEWNESS OF LIFE.

Could John's water baptism do this? NO

(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified WITH Christ through the baptism in holy spirit that the body of sin might be "destroyed"...

Could John's water baptism do this. ABSOLUTEL NOT

Water baptism could only REPRESENT the true and greater baptism in the spirit by Jesus Christ.

Now which baptism is the "ONE BAPTISM" spoken about in Ephesians 4:5 - "One Lord, one faith, one baptism?"

JESUS HIMSELF SAID:

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

None of this answers my specific questions about the fulfilment of the "death/burial/resurrection" typology. You've only shown where the words appear in the Bible - I can do that myself! You haven't shown how "Spirit baptism" fulfils this typology! That's what I need to see.

Oh, and I note with interest that a lot of your assertions have no corresponding proof texts. :)
 

agape

New member
Re: We must "accept" the gift!!

Re: We must "accept" the gift!!

Originally posted by Apollos
agape -
You are the one sounding like a broken record here. Please join the conversation...
LOL...Whatever! :D
It has been clearly, without querstion, undeniably established here that man MUST DO SOMETHING in order to appropriate the salvation God offers be his grace.

We just need to discuss just WHAT IT IS that MAN MUST DO in order for God to bestow that salvation on him!
Another "PI" Apollos? Have you been "out to lunch" all this time? To be accurate, you mean what man must do AFTER GOD HAS BESTOWED SALVATION BY HIS GRACE ...right??? We already know what man must in order FOR God to "bestow salvation on us," which is Romans 10:9...right???

Lookey here:

For by GRACE ARE YE SAVED through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: [it is] the GIFT of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Are you a "boaster?" Hope not! ;)

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now do you want to join in on the "true" conversation...eh, Apollos???
 

agape

New member
Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape -

None of this answers my specific questions about the fulfilment of the "death/burial/resurrection" typology. You've only shown where the words appear in the Bible - I can do that myself! You haven't shown how "Spirit baptism" fulfils this typology! That's what I need to see.
"I've only shown where the words 'appear' in the Bible??...LOL..you are really too funny, Evangelion. At least I show some words from the Bible...you show absolutely none. All you show is one being dunked in water and coming out all wet. There is no mention of death, burial and resurrection in the bible concerning water baptism because it is only a type...not the "Real McCoy." However, death, burial and resurrection are ONLY AND SPECIFICALLY mentioned concerning "SPIRIT BAPTISM," which I have CLEARLY SHOWN
Oh, and I note with interest that a lot of your assertions have no corresponding proof texts.
Well you must be blind as a bat. :D
 

Kevin

New member
Agape,

Because it is by faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior NOT WORKS that we are saved. It is FAITH ALONE, WITHOUT WORKS. So simple to understand. I don't know why you and others have such a problem with it. Perhaps it's your religious upbringing and you never did or did not know how to do Acts 17:11. You just took someone else's word for it. I don't know. You are defending what you were taught to believe, not the gospel of the good news of salvation. I don't have a problem believing what the Word of God teaches.

Ephesians 2:8,9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved by grace, and by grace alone, "through" faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES. We cannot do a blessed thing for our salvation, it is the GIFT OF GOD, by His Grace, His favor to us, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. Clear and simple. So, we need to stop ADDING WORKS for salvation. We are already saved by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ accomplished our salvation for us through his life, suffering, death, resurrection and ascension.

Are you going to answer my question? How can we confess Jesus with the mouth with faith "ALONE". Confessing with the mouth requires ACTION on our part... something we must DO. It is imposssible to DO an ACTION with faith "ALONE". Answer my question, if you can.
 

Kevin

New member
Evangelion,

None of this answers my specific questions about the fulfilment of the "death/burial/resurrection" typology. You've only shown where the words appear in the Bible - I can do that myself!

Did you notice that Agape keeps referring to John's baptism? I'm not sure if he realizes that being baptized in the name of Jesus uses water, and is a completely different baptism than that of John's.
 

agape

New member
Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
Are you going to answer my question? How can we confess Jesus with the mouth with faith "ALONE". Confessing with the mouth requires ACTION on our part... something we must DO. It is imposssible to DO an ACTION with faith "ALONE". Answer my question, if you can.
LOL...flapping the lips doesn't save anyone. Matthew 15:8--"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me."

When we confess with/in "our" mouth...we are saying, agreeing and accepting within ourselves the Lord Jesus as our savior from sin.. We don't make ourselves "say" it...it's already there. When we believe with our heart and mind that Christ died for our sins and was made alive, we are SAVED and BORN AGAIN and HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. There's NO standing on a soap box and verbally confessing out loud for all the world to hear. There is NO EFFORT on the part of the person who already believes.

God answered your question via His Word, but again it went over your head. Here we go again

Ephesians 2:8,9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God makes it very clear that we are saved by Grace..."Through Faith" NOT OF WORKS, which means FAITH ALONE...no works involved, lest any man should boast. God means what He says and says what He means. He MEANT IT WHEN HE SAID "NOT OF WORKS" So, don't going laying on me that we have to do something for salvation. Jesus Christ did it all...he did ALL THE WORKS and we just believe it. Believing comes from the heart not from "bumping the gums."

Acts 16:30,31:
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Getting saved is easy. It is a one-time occurrence and is permanent. It guarantees us entrance in the Kingdom of God. When saved, a Christian never has to fear losing his everlasting life.
 
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