The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
JustAChristian
New member
Mathetes said:
One of the hardest things in life is to see yourself in the wrong. Many people have come to that point and have made changes. I recall the great number on Pentecost in Acts 2. They saw themselves in error and repented and were baptized in order to be cleansed of sin. The blood of Jesus Christ is symbolically found in the water of baptism. The union of man and God is found in baptism. The birth unto a spiritual life is found in baptism. Only when we are willing to consider all the councel of God will we conclude the necessity of obedience of the gospel. Keep on preaching. You are doing a good job, but don't gloat! Thats not necessary. I don't think any of the apostles ever gloated over a victory over Satan as often we would want to do.
JustAChristian
HopeofGlory
New member
JustAChristian
Your wrong!
At Pentecost they did not believe Christ "die for their sins" and it is void of the message that His shed blood gave them remission of sins. Water baptism to them was not "symbolic" of His shed blood.
The burden is yours to prove otherwise with scripture or accept the fact that you are wrong.
Your wrong!
At Pentecost they did not believe Christ "die for their sins" and it is void of the message that His shed blood gave them remission of sins. Water baptism to them was not "symbolic" of His shed blood.
The burden is yours to prove otherwise with scripture or accept the fact that you are wrong.
JustaChristian-You can't have your cake....,
JustaChristian-You can't have your cake....,
Here is your quote; "The blood of Jesus Christ is symbolically found in the water of baptism."
Well, what cleanses us from sin? The blood or water? Acts 3:19,I John 1:7. Are you saying no matter how much a sinner has faith in Christ, repents sincerely of his sins and is NOT water baptised he is not saved? Is that your conclusion?
JustaChristian-You can't have your cake....,
Here is your quote; "The blood of Jesus Christ is symbolically found in the water of baptism."
Well, what cleanses us from sin? The blood or water? Acts 3:19,I John 1:7. Are you saying no matter how much a sinner has faith in Christ, repents sincerely of his sins and is NOT water baptised he is not saved? Is that your conclusion?
Kevin
New member
Egads! This thread really took off.
I'm sorry to say that I'm going to withdraw from the debate. For one thing, I don't feel any progress is being made by either side, and it's very time consuming. Secondly, I recieved some bummer news and I'm not very motivated to debate at the moment. I will convey some closing remarks, however.
Quoted from Freak,
Compare that with Mark 16:16 (Quoted from Jesus)
Those are the words of JESUS CHRIST!!! I didn't add anything! According to you, the words of Jesus are "utter blasphemy".
I'm assuming that you are going to point out that the condition for condemnation only mentions belief, and nothing about baptism. The answer to this is quite simple: If somebody doesn't believe, then that person is already lost and won't reach the point of baptism. For why would one get baptized into something that he/she doesn't believe in? They wouldn't, and therefore there was no need to mention baptism, because that person is already lost.
Pay close attention to the requirements listed in the begining of that verse that is required for salvation. Belief AND baptism. The significance of the word "and" is essential to understanding this verse's meaning. Two, not one, two conditions HAVE to be met before one can be saved: Belief and baptism! The latter part of that verse doesn't make any difference to the clearly illustrated requirements for salvation.
Jesus says that beleif and baptism will save you, and Freak says that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. HMMMMMM... I wonder who I'm going to believe.
And Freak, you calling me a Heretic is a compliment, coming from you. I'm very happy I don't share your castrated view on what the gospel is and your unbelief that obeying Jesus's commandments is necessary for salvation. Praise God I don't think that way!!
You never did show me a verse that says that disobedient people will have rights to the tree of life. You know why? Because they don't have rights to it!
God bless you all, and I hope that somewhere along in this discussion that somebody benefits and learns from it
I'm sorry to say that I'm going to withdraw from the debate. For one thing, I don't feel any progress is being made by either side, and it's very time consuming. Secondly, I recieved some bummer news and I'm not very motivated to debate at the moment. I will convey some closing remarks, however.
Quoted from Freak,
Compare that with Mark 16:16 (Quoted from Jesus)
Those are the words of JESUS CHRIST!!! I didn't add anything! According to you, the words of Jesus are "utter blasphemy".
I'm assuming that you are going to point out that the condition for condemnation only mentions belief, and nothing about baptism. The answer to this is quite simple: If somebody doesn't believe, then that person is already lost and won't reach the point of baptism. For why would one get baptized into something that he/she doesn't believe in? They wouldn't, and therefore there was no need to mention baptism, because that person is already lost.
Pay close attention to the requirements listed in the begining of that verse that is required for salvation. Belief AND baptism. The significance of the word "and" is essential to understanding this verse's meaning. Two, not one, two conditions HAVE to be met before one can be saved: Belief and baptism! The latter part of that verse doesn't make any difference to the clearly illustrated requirements for salvation.
Jesus says that beleif and baptism will save you, and Freak says that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. HMMMMMM... I wonder who I'm going to believe.
And Freak, you calling me a Heretic is a compliment, coming from you. I'm very happy I don't share your castrated view on what the gospel is and your unbelief that obeying Jesus's commandments is necessary for salvation. Praise God I don't think that way!!
You never did show me a verse that says that disobedient people will have rights to the tree of life. You know why? Because they don't have rights to it!
God bless you all, and I hope that somewhere along in this discussion that somebody benefits and learns from it
Last edited:
Freak
New member
Jesus made it quite clear that is not baptism that would condemn a person but the "disbelieved"(v.16), baptism did not play in the equation at all. Baptism is merely a response of the believer. In no way does water save a person. The blood of Christ is sufficent (Ephesians 1:7).
By the way, nobody has dealt with Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 where Paul made it quite clear that the only requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit is faith. Water baptism plays no part. Though I believe baptism is important for the Christian it is not however the way to be saved. That would be absurd. The person of Jesus is sufficent. I think I'll stick with Jesus.
By the way, nobody has dealt with Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 where Paul made it quite clear that the only requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit is faith. Water baptism plays no part. Though I believe baptism is important for the Christian it is not however the way to be saved. That would be absurd. The person of Jesus is sufficent. I think I'll stick with Jesus.
Freak,
I agree with you on this one. We agree that baptism is a proper response for the believer, but that Jesus saves. Then comes water baptism, a covenant sign of all that Jesus has done for us.
Refusing & contemning baptism is of course an indication that we should doubt the conversion of such a person. I don't think the "no-baptism dispensationalists" on this forum are in that position. They see baptism by the Holy Spirit into Christ as the true saving baptism, which we can agree with.
When sects like JWs & Christadelphians insist on their water baptism, only by immersion, then that has no value. They do not hold the head, the Lord Jesus Christ as God the Son & Son of God.
I agree with you on this one. We agree that baptism is a proper response for the believer, but that Jesus saves. Then comes water baptism, a covenant sign of all that Jesus has done for us.
Refusing & contemning baptism is of course an indication that we should doubt the conversion of such a person. I don't think the "no-baptism dispensationalists" on this forum are in that position. They see baptism by the Holy Spirit into Christ as the true saving baptism, which we can agree with.
When sects like JWs & Christadelphians insist on their water baptism, only by immersion, then that has no value. They do not hold the head, the Lord Jesus Christ as God the Son & Son of God.
JustAChristian
New member
Water Baptism Has Always Been For The Remission of Sins
Water Baptism Has Always Been For The Remission of Sins
You limit the preaching of the gospel to the written text. Just because it does not record in one certain text a certain phrase does not unequivically prove that a certain subject was preached. The context tells us that the people were penetant of the transgression against Christ and repented and were baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord added the baptized to the church and the church went about everywere preaching the same gospel (Acts 2:37-38; Acts 2:47; Acts 8:1f). The apostle who was then Saul of Tarsus was told to arise (from prayer) and be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16). He obeyed the gospel (Rom. 1:5; Rom 1:16). He went about teaching and preaching the gospel and performed water baptism upon those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. The apostles together consented with what Paul preached and what he did and did not say anything to hint that it was anyway different than what they were preaching. Today, the faithful Christian can take the Bible and preach and do the very acts that is appointed for them to do. That is the beauty of providence. God says that we will be judged by the word. We have the word and can be well pleasing if we do wrest it to our distruction.
JustAChristian
Water Baptism Has Always Been For The Remission of Sins
HopeofGlory said:
You limit the preaching of the gospel to the written text. Just because it does not record in one certain text a certain phrase does not unequivically prove that a certain subject was preached. The context tells us that the people were penetant of the transgression against Christ and repented and were baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord added the baptized to the church and the church went about everywere preaching the same gospel (Acts 2:37-38; Acts 2:47; Acts 8:1f). The apostle who was then Saul of Tarsus was told to arise (from prayer) and be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16). He obeyed the gospel (Rom. 1:5; Rom 1:16). He went about teaching and preaching the gospel and performed water baptism upon those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. The apostles together consented with what Paul preached and what he did and did not say anything to hint that it was anyway different than what they were preaching. Today, the faithful Christian can take the Bible and preach and do the very acts that is appointed for them to do. That is the beauty of providence. God says that we will be judged by the word. We have the word and can be well pleasing if we do wrest it to our distruction.
JustAChristian
Mathetes
New member
Ian Day said:
I haven't seen anyone here say that baptism saves in and of itself. It is the outward sign of an inward change - the dedication of the believer to their saviour. What's wrong with that?
Well said!
Anyone who says that a commandment of Christ is optional or unnecessary is flying in the face of an authority to which they ought to be subject.
Nonsense. All we have insisted on is the simple obedience to the clear commandment of Christ. Why is that so hard?
Is obedience part of the salvic process or not?
HopeofGlory
New member
You said:
You limit the preaching of the gospel to the written text. Just because it does not record in one certain text a certain phrase does not unequivically prove that a certain subject was preached.
Reply:
The written text is the gospel and there is no other. It seems you would have us "add" to the word. God has given explicit instructions on that subject!
You said:
The context tells us that the people were penetant of the transgression against Christ and repented and were baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord added the baptized to the church and the church went about everywere preaching the same gospel (Acts 2:37-38; Acts 2:47; Acts 8:1f). The apostle who was then Saul of Tarsus was told to arise (from prayer) and be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16).
Reply:
Ananias instructed Paul and he was.... A DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW Acts 22:12 (KJV)
You said:
He obeyed the gospel (Rom. 1:5; Rom 1:16).
Reply:
The power of God unto salvation that Paul referred to is not found at Pentecost.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV)
You said:
He went about teaching and preaching the gospel and performed water baptism upon those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Reply:
He did baptize some but the above verse testifies that at a later date Christ sent him to the gentiles and was instructed "not to baptize". Paul received progressive revelations and at one point he was caught up to heaven.
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. Gal. 1:11 (KJV) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal. 1:12 (KJV)
You said:
The apostles together consented with what Paul preached and
what he did and did not say anything to hint that it was anyway different than what they were preaching.
Reply:
Paul said...But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. Gal. 2:11 (KJV)
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. Gal. 2:2 (KJV)
You said:
Today, the faithful Christian can take the Bible and preach and do the very acts that is appointed for them to do. That is the beauty of providence. God says that we will be judged by the word. We have the word and can be well pleasing if we do wrest it to our distruction.
Reply:
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the WORD of truth. 2 Tim. 2:15 (KJV)............it will avoid destruction!
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
Christ offers His blood but the apostles did not believe so their remission of sins came through water baptism. The message of His blood (death) is not found at Pentecost because the apostles refused it.
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood,which is shed for you. Luke 22:20 (KJV)
But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. Luke 22:21 (KJV)
And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! Luke 22:22 (KJV)
And they began to inquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing. Luke 22:23 (KJV)
And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. Luke 22:24 (KJV)
Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. Luke 22:28 (KJV)
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; Luke 22:29 (KJV)
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:30 (KJV)
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: Luke 22:31 (KJV)
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32 (KJV)
The apostles argued among themselves as our Savior was telling them of the power of his shed blood and speaks of Peter being converted. Peter will later be converted with the Gospel of Christ.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:53 (KJV)
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? John 6:60 (KJV)
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? John 6:61 (KJV)
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65 (KJV)
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. John 6:66 (KJV)
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? John 6:67 (KJV)
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. John 6:68 (KJV)
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? John 6:70 (KJV)
Jesus is telling them the way to eternal life is faith in his blood but it offends them. Peter says that Jesus has the words but he does not say he has faith in it. Peter does say that he believes Jesus is the Son of God. Remember in Luke 22:32 Jesus said that he would be converted later on. Jesus said he chose the twelve and one is a devil. His choosing them was not based on their faith in his death, burial , and resurrection which baptizes us into the body by the Spirit. His choice was based on their belief that he was the Son of God and they could be a witness to his death.
At Pentecost they did not believe Jesus died for their sins and we do not have any scripture to the contrary in the word of God.
You limit the preaching of the gospel to the written text. Just because it does not record in one certain text a certain phrase does not unequivically prove that a certain subject was preached.
Reply:
The written text is the gospel and there is no other. It seems you would have us "add" to the word. God has given explicit instructions on that subject!
You said:
The context tells us that the people were penetant of the transgression against Christ and repented and were baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord added the baptized to the church and the church went about everywere preaching the same gospel (Acts 2:37-38; Acts 2:47; Acts 8:1f). The apostle who was then Saul of Tarsus was told to arise (from prayer) and be baptized and wash away his sins (Acts 22:16).
Reply:
Ananias instructed Paul and he was.... A DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW Acts 22:12 (KJV)
You said:
He obeyed the gospel (Rom. 1:5; Rom 1:16).
Reply:
The power of God unto salvation that Paul referred to is not found at Pentecost.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV)
You said:
He went about teaching and preaching the gospel and performed water baptism upon those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Reply:
He did baptize some but the above verse testifies that at a later date Christ sent him to the gentiles and was instructed "not to baptize". Paul received progressive revelations and at one point he was caught up to heaven.
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. Gal. 1:11 (KJV) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal. 1:12 (KJV)
You said:
The apostles together consented with what Paul preached and
what he did and did not say anything to hint that it was anyway different than what they were preaching.
Reply:
Paul said...But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. Gal. 2:11 (KJV)
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. Gal. 2:2 (KJV)
You said:
Today, the faithful Christian can take the Bible and preach and do the very acts that is appointed for them to do. That is the beauty of providence. God says that we will be judged by the word. We have the word and can be well pleasing if we do wrest it to our distruction.
Reply:
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the WORD of truth. 2 Tim. 2:15 (KJV)............it will avoid destruction!
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
Christ offers His blood but the apostles did not believe so their remission of sins came through water baptism. The message of His blood (death) is not found at Pentecost because the apostles refused it.
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood,which is shed for you. Luke 22:20 (KJV)
But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. Luke 22:21 (KJV)
And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! Luke 22:22 (KJV)
And they began to inquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing. Luke 22:23 (KJV)
And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. Luke 22:24 (KJV)
Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. Luke 22:28 (KJV)
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; Luke 22:29 (KJV)
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:30 (KJV)
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: Luke 22:31 (KJV)
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32 (KJV)
The apostles argued among themselves as our Savior was telling them of the power of his shed blood and speaks of Peter being converted. Peter will later be converted with the Gospel of Christ.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:53 (KJV)
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? John 6:60 (KJV)
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? John 6:61 (KJV)
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65 (KJV)
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. John 6:66 (KJV)
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? John 6:67 (KJV)
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. John 6:68 (KJV)
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? John 6:70 (KJV)
Jesus is telling them the way to eternal life is faith in his blood but it offends them. Peter says that Jesus has the words but he does not say he has faith in it. Peter does say that he believes Jesus is the Son of God. Remember in Luke 22:32 Jesus said that he would be converted later on. Jesus said he chose the twelve and one is a devil. His choosing them was not based on their faith in his death, burial , and resurrection which baptizes us into the body by the Spirit. His choice was based on their belief that he was the Son of God and they could be a witness to his death.
At Pentecost they did not believe Jesus died for their sins and we do not have any scripture to the contrary in the word of God.
Mathetes
New member
What we need is proof of these otherwise wild assertions:
- Where are we told that Paul was commanded not to baptize?
- Where are we told that those at Pentecost were not baptized into Christ?
- Where are we told that baptism is not part of the gospel message?
Baptism is important element in the gospel message.
When the foundation doctrines of the apostles are expounded, baptism is there:
Peter says: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 2:38
Peter says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 3:19,26
Philip says: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 8:36-38 (Isa. 53:10)
Peter says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 10:36,37,43,47,48
Paul says: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 13:24,38,39 (Psa. 2:12; Isa. 55:6,7)
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 17:30
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 26:18,20
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Romans 6:1-6
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Colossians 2:9-15
Peter says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - 1 Peter 3:18-22
- Where are we told that Paul was commanded not to baptize?
- Where are we told that those at Pentecost were not baptized into Christ?
- Where are we told that baptism is not part of the gospel message?
Baptism is important element in the gospel message.
When the foundation doctrines of the apostles are expounded, baptism is there:
Peter says: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 2:38
Peter says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 3:19,26
Philip says: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 8:36-38 (Isa. 53:10)
Peter says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 10:36,37,43,47,48
Paul says: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 13:24,38,39 (Psa. 2:12; Isa. 55:6,7)
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 17:30
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 26:18,20
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Romans 6:1-6
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Colossians 2:9-15
Peter says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - 1 Peter 3:18-22
Hope,
You are in the dangerous position of trying to prove your assertions by choosing Scriptures where particular truths are not stated, & in your opinion therefore not believed.
We have to realise that Peter was speaking at Pentecost under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He was declaring the truth of God. But not the whole truth in a few verses. He wasn't giving a lecture on systematic theology, but preaching the gospel.
Only 7 weeks before, the crowd had demanded the death of the Lord Jesus. They had called a curse on themselves with the words: "his blood be on us, and on our children."
Now the crowd, many of whom had indeed demanded the death of the one whom they now realised was their Messiah, were in terror under the conviction of their awful crime against the one promised from the beginning.
I have shown previously that the Hebrew understanding of baptism is the application of the blood of the sacrifice.
Those who rashly defied God with the self-curse : "his blood be on us, and on our children" were commanded to repent & be baptised in the name of the one the had rejected & crucified. And Peter reassures them: "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. "
They would not be in ignorance of the significance of baptism. THe blood of the New Covenant in Jesus' blood, contrasted with the animal blood of the Old Covenant of Ex. 24.
When Peter sets out his teaching systematically he affirms:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
He goes on to show that baptism is a God-given sign of cleansing of the conscience, (not the washing, but the meaning).
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I am amazed that you should make such a foolish assertion. The need for a blood sacrifice for sin is the great theme of Scripture, and the way the Covenant is ratified.
You are in the dangerous position of trying to prove your assertions by choosing Scriptures where particular truths are not stated, & in your opinion therefore not believed.
We have to realise that Peter was speaking at Pentecost under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He was declaring the truth of God. But not the whole truth in a few verses. He wasn't giving a lecture on systematic theology, but preaching the gospel.
Only 7 weeks before, the crowd had demanded the death of the Lord Jesus. They had called a curse on themselves with the words: "his blood be on us, and on our children."
Now the crowd, many of whom had indeed demanded the death of the one whom they now realised was their Messiah, were in terror under the conviction of their awful crime against the one promised from the beginning.
I have shown previously that the Hebrew understanding of baptism is the application of the blood of the sacrifice.
Those who rashly defied God with the self-curse : "his blood be on us, and on our children" were commanded to repent & be baptised in the name of the one the had rejected & crucified. And Peter reassures them: "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. "
They would not be in ignorance of the significance of baptism. THe blood of the New Covenant in Jesus' blood, contrasted with the animal blood of the Old Covenant of Ex. 24.
When Peter sets out his teaching systematically he affirms:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
He goes on to show that baptism is a God-given sign of cleansing of the conscience, (not the washing, but the meaning).
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
HopeofGlory
New member
- Where are we told that Paul was commanded not to baptize?
Response:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
The verse is clear "for Christ sent me not to baptize"!
Why would Paul say such a thing and "disobey" the great commission? Water baptism in the dispensation of it's inception through obedience (works) "gave remission of sins" and it can not be argued unless you choose to go against the word of God. The message was one that not only had to be obeyed but it also demanded endurance to the end to receive that remission. Paul now understands by progressive revelation that message is no longer effectual for remission of sins and has been superceded by the cross.
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 1 Cor. 1:14 (KJV)
- Where are we told that those at Pentecost were not baptized into Christ?
Response:
That question can be answered with this question! Where are we told that they were? They were baptized in the name of Jesus. Beginning with John the Baptist water baptism was perform to manifest Christ to Israel (John 1:31). This manifestation was to get them to accept Him as the Son of God (Messiah). Israel was God's chosen messenger of the gospel and this was the "first step" in their training thus water baptism in His name was acceptance of that message. This recognition alone will not grant life eternally. We know that even the devils understand this much! The Pentecost experience was the realization of this manifestation to Israel and it was void of the witness of God which is the sacrifice of His Son for "remission of sins eternally".
- Where are we told that baptism is not part of the gospel message?
Response:
Baptism is a part of the gospel but (on the contrary) it is of God (Spiritual) not man (in water). This contrast is evident in scripture.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matt. 3:11 (KJV)
This verse when considered in the light of water baptism was for "remission of sins" we can easily see that Christ will "replace" that message with His death at the cross for forgiveness of sins. When accepted by faith His substitutionary death for sin...by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV). Christ our Saviour is that body and that Spirit!
Jesus said... “I have greater witness than that of John”. John the Baptist verifies the words of Jesus.....“He must increase, but I must” decrease. John 3:30 (KJV) He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 (KJV)
1- Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)
2-Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins Rom. 3:25.
The two different messages are clear to there meaning and how can we explain why #1 has water baptism for remission of sins and #2 has faith in His blood for remission of sins?
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation....2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)
All things become new! This includes baptism. All things are now of God not man in "ONE" baptism.
Response:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
The verse is clear "for Christ sent me not to baptize"!
Why would Paul say such a thing and "disobey" the great commission? Water baptism in the dispensation of it's inception through obedience (works) "gave remission of sins" and it can not be argued unless you choose to go against the word of God. The message was one that not only had to be obeyed but it also demanded endurance to the end to receive that remission. Paul now understands by progressive revelation that message is no longer effectual for remission of sins and has been superceded by the cross.
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 1 Cor. 1:14 (KJV)
- Where are we told that those at Pentecost were not baptized into Christ?
Response:
That question can be answered with this question! Where are we told that they were? They were baptized in the name of Jesus. Beginning with John the Baptist water baptism was perform to manifest Christ to Israel (John 1:31). This manifestation was to get them to accept Him as the Son of God (Messiah). Israel was God's chosen messenger of the gospel and this was the "first step" in their training thus water baptism in His name was acceptance of that message. This recognition alone will not grant life eternally. We know that even the devils understand this much! The Pentecost experience was the realization of this manifestation to Israel and it was void of the witness of God which is the sacrifice of His Son for "remission of sins eternally".
- Where are we told that baptism is not part of the gospel message?
Response:
Baptism is a part of the gospel but (on the contrary) it is of God (Spiritual) not man (in water). This contrast is evident in scripture.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matt. 3:11 (KJV)
This verse when considered in the light of water baptism was for "remission of sins" we can easily see that Christ will "replace" that message with His death at the cross for forgiveness of sins. When accepted by faith His substitutionary death for sin...by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV). Christ our Saviour is that body and that Spirit!
Jesus said... “I have greater witness than that of John”. John the Baptist verifies the words of Jesus.....“He must increase, but I must” decrease. John 3:30 (KJV) He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 (KJV)
1- Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)
2-Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins Rom. 3:25.
The two different messages are clear to there meaning and how can we explain why #1 has water baptism for remission of sins and #2 has faith in His blood for remission of sins?
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation....2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)
All things become new! This includes baptism. All things are now of God not man in "ONE" baptism.
HopeofGlory
New member
Ian,
You said:
I am amazed that you should make such a foolish assertion. The need for a blood sacrifice for sin is the great theme of Scripture, and the way the Covenant is ratified.
Reply:
We should not assume a message is understood without scriptural "proof" and we certainly cannot "add" to the message what is not there for that truly is foolishness. Christ offered eternal life in this blood (death) to the apostles and It can be verified with scripture that it was not understood. Their response was "who can here (believe) it" (John 6:60).
You said:
You are in the dangerous position of trying to prove your assertions by choosing Scriptures where particular truths are not stated, & in your opinion therefore not believed.
Reply:
What you have not recognized is the vast difference between the blood offering of bulls and goats (law) and the precious blood of the lamb of God (grace). It is not my opinion but is factual within the word of God and we are instructed to rightly divide the word.
You said:
We have to realise that Peter was speaking at Pentecost under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He was declaring the truth of God. But not the whole truth in a few verses. He wasn't giving a lecture on systematic theology, but preaching the gospel.
Reply:
"All" scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim 3:16)! Peter was declaring the understanding given to him. We also know Jesus stated that Peter would be converted at a later date (Luke 22:32). This statement of Jesus was made right after He offered the "new testement in His blood" (John 6:53-56) of which the apostles replied "who can hear it". To say that Peter understood that Christ would die for His sins is to deny clear scripture to the contrary. When Jesus began teaching Peter of His death Peter spoke against it and Jesus replied...Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be "of men"( Matt. 16:23).
We know Peter did not understand the clear teachings of Jesus...
how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day( Matt. 16:21) because after His resurrection...he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen (Mark 16:14). Peter's conversion continued after Pentecost
for he was instructed...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15) but Peter had this to say concerning Cornelius....Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation ( Acts 10:28). At the Jerusalem council Paul confronts Peter... I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed (Gal. 2:11). Peter admits the things he did not understand but were revealed to Paul....As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).
You said:
Only 7 weeks before, the crowd had demanded the death of the Lord Jesus. They had called a curse on themselves with the words: "his blood be on us, and on our children."
Now the crowd, many of whom had indeed demanded the death of the one whom they now realised was their Messiah, were in terror under the conviction of their awful crime against the one promised from the beginning.
Reply:
"His blood be on us" in that they had crucified the Messiah is a far cry from His blood has given eternal life to all who believe.
You said:
I have shown previously that the Hebrew understanding of baptism is the application of the blood of the sacrifice.
Those who rashly defied God with the self-curse : "his blood be on us, and on our children" were commanded to repent & be baptised in the name of the one the had rejected & crucified. And Peter reassures them: "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. "
Reply:
I have clearly shown the apostles did not make the connection with His death for remission of their sins but they were "saved"
in obedience to water baptism. The "promise" was not received...The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).
You said:
They would not be in ignorance of the significance of baptism. THe blood of the New Covenant in Jesus' blood, contrasted with the animal blood of the Old Covenant of Ex. 24.
Reply:
They did not understand the death of Christ as I have shown. They were broken hearted at the fact their Messiah was dead and there was no rejoicing in His blood in that it gave them eternal life. They did not make the connection!
You said:
When Peter sets out his teaching systematically he affirms:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Reply:
Remember Peter was converted and these teachings are a result of that conversion.
You said:
He goes on to show that baptism is a God-given sign of cleansing of the conscience, (not the washing, but the meaning).
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Reply:
The baptism that "saves" is an operation of God not man and Peter gives that meaning further clarity when he says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" i.e. water baptism but (on the contrary) " the answer of a good conscience" i.e. faith.
I would like to thank you for your defense of the blood of Christ. It is truly a tragedy when one believes water baptism gives remission of sins. It is confusing to the unlearned when they read a scripture that clearly says repent of your sins and obey in water baptism and your sins will be remitted. Dispensationalism removes this works option and leaves only the finished work of Christ for remission of sins. I do not believe in clear cut dispensations but belief in progressive revelation in respect to what the listeners believed and what their actions and words testify.
You said:
I am amazed that you should make such a foolish assertion. The need for a blood sacrifice for sin is the great theme of Scripture, and the way the Covenant is ratified.
Reply:
We should not assume a message is understood without scriptural "proof" and we certainly cannot "add" to the message what is not there for that truly is foolishness. Christ offered eternal life in this blood (death) to the apostles and It can be verified with scripture that it was not understood. Their response was "who can here (believe) it" (John 6:60).
You said:
You are in the dangerous position of trying to prove your assertions by choosing Scriptures where particular truths are not stated, & in your opinion therefore not believed.
Reply:
What you have not recognized is the vast difference between the blood offering of bulls and goats (law) and the precious blood of the lamb of God (grace). It is not my opinion but is factual within the word of God and we are instructed to rightly divide the word.
You said:
We have to realise that Peter was speaking at Pentecost under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He was declaring the truth of God. But not the whole truth in a few verses. He wasn't giving a lecture on systematic theology, but preaching the gospel.
Reply:
"All" scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim 3:16)! Peter was declaring the understanding given to him. We also know Jesus stated that Peter would be converted at a later date (Luke 22:32). This statement of Jesus was made right after He offered the "new testement in His blood" (John 6:53-56) of which the apostles replied "who can hear it". To say that Peter understood that Christ would die for His sins is to deny clear scripture to the contrary. When Jesus began teaching Peter of His death Peter spoke against it and Jesus replied...Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be "of men"( Matt. 16:23).
We know Peter did not understand the clear teachings of Jesus...
how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day( Matt. 16:21) because after His resurrection...he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen (Mark 16:14). Peter's conversion continued after Pentecost
for he was instructed...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15) but Peter had this to say concerning Cornelius....Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation ( Acts 10:28). At the Jerusalem council Paul confronts Peter... I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed (Gal. 2:11). Peter admits the things he did not understand but were revealed to Paul....As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).
You said:
Only 7 weeks before, the crowd had demanded the death of the Lord Jesus. They had called a curse on themselves with the words: "his blood be on us, and on our children."
Now the crowd, many of whom had indeed demanded the death of the one whom they now realised was their Messiah, were in terror under the conviction of their awful crime against the one promised from the beginning.
Reply:
"His blood be on us" in that they had crucified the Messiah is a far cry from His blood has given eternal life to all who believe.
You said:
I have shown previously that the Hebrew understanding of baptism is the application of the blood of the sacrifice.
Those who rashly defied God with the self-curse : "his blood be on us, and on our children" were commanded to repent & be baptised in the name of the one the had rejected & crucified. And Peter reassures them: "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. "
Reply:
I have clearly shown the apostles did not make the connection with His death for remission of their sins but they were "saved"
in obedience to water baptism. The "promise" was not received...The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).
You said:
They would not be in ignorance of the significance of baptism. THe blood of the New Covenant in Jesus' blood, contrasted with the animal blood of the Old Covenant of Ex. 24.
Reply:
They did not understand the death of Christ as I have shown. They were broken hearted at the fact their Messiah was dead and there was no rejoicing in His blood in that it gave them eternal life. They did not make the connection!
You said:
When Peter sets out his teaching systematically he affirms:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Reply:
Remember Peter was converted and these teachings are a result of that conversion.
You said:
He goes on to show that baptism is a God-given sign of cleansing of the conscience, (not the washing, but the meaning).
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Reply:
The baptism that "saves" is an operation of God not man and Peter gives that meaning further clarity when he says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" i.e. water baptism but (on the contrary) " the answer of a good conscience" i.e. faith.
I would like to thank you for your defense of the blood of Christ. It is truly a tragedy when one believes water baptism gives remission of sins. It is confusing to the unlearned when they read a scripture that clearly says repent of your sins and obey in water baptism and your sins will be remitted. Dispensationalism removes this works option and leaves only the finished work of Christ for remission of sins. I do not believe in clear cut dispensations but belief in progressive revelation in respect to what the listeners believed and what their actions and words testify.
servantofChrist
New member
Hi "Freak,"
You say no one has answered your challenge concerning 1 Cor. 15:2-4, which says that we are saved by "the gospel" but makes no mention of baptism.
Consider your challenge answered... Because I'm going to employ your own use of the scriptures, and the way you reason from them, and show just how erroneous they are:
You say that 1 Cor. 15:2-4 teaches that we are not saved by baptism because baptism is not mentioned in the passage. Then according to that, neither is the blood of Christ necessary [it says that He "died"; it doesn't say anything about blood being shed], neither is believing that Jesus is the Son God necessary, neither is repentance, nor confession necessary.
According to your own use of the scriptures and your own reasoning NONE of those things is necessary to be saved BECAUSE NONE OF THEM ARE MENTIONED IN 1 COR. 15:2-4 EITHER!
But although baptism is not explicitly mentioned, it is nonetheless IMPLIED. Because the subject of these verses in 1 Cor. 15 is "the gospel"; and Paul says, "By this gospel you are saved." And at the conclusion of the very first gospel message ever preached, when the condemned audience asked, "What shall we do?" The Holy Spirit's immediate response, through the apostle Peter, was: "Repent AND BE BAPTIZED, EVERY ONE OF YOU, in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS...." (Acts 2:38)
What do you think, Freak?
You say no one has answered your challenge concerning 1 Cor. 15:2-4, which says that we are saved by "the gospel" but makes no mention of baptism.
Consider your challenge answered... Because I'm going to employ your own use of the scriptures, and the way you reason from them, and show just how erroneous they are:
You say that 1 Cor. 15:2-4 teaches that we are not saved by baptism because baptism is not mentioned in the passage. Then according to that, neither is the blood of Christ necessary [it says that He "died"; it doesn't say anything about blood being shed], neither is believing that Jesus is the Son God necessary, neither is repentance, nor confession necessary.
According to your own use of the scriptures and your own reasoning NONE of those things is necessary to be saved BECAUSE NONE OF THEM ARE MENTIONED IN 1 COR. 15:2-4 EITHER!
But although baptism is not explicitly mentioned, it is nonetheless IMPLIED. Because the subject of these verses in 1 Cor. 15 is "the gospel"; and Paul says, "By this gospel you are saved." And at the conclusion of the very first gospel message ever preached, when the condemned audience asked, "What shall we do?" The Holy Spirit's immediate response, through the apostle Peter, was: "Repent AND BE BAPTIZED, EVERY ONE OF YOU, in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS...." (Acts 2:38)
What do you think, Freak?
JustAChristian
New member
See Here is Water!!
See Here is Water!!
[I haven't seen anyone here say that baptism saves in and of itself. It is the outward sign of an inward change - the dedication of the believer to their saviour. What's wrong with that?]
When the Eunuch of Acts 8:36 passed along side a pool beside the road that lead down to Gaza, what did he see? He saw water. Just plain ole desert pool water. Not mountain water, not sea water but pure "dyed in the wool" desert water. What did he want from that water? He wanted to be baptized. Why did he want to be baptized? Did Phillip say to him "Now that you are saved, you aught to show the world that you are save by being baptized. Is that what he said? No!! He said "if you believe you may be baptized. Baptism was essential for him because he was still in his sins. How do I know he was still in his sins. Well, I look into the Bible and I see where someone who was later baptized was told that he still had his sins after praying a long while. That man was Saul of Tarsus (Acts 22:13-16). Now, if Saul was still in his sin after hearing and knowing and believing in Jesus, for the context tells me so, why was he still in his sins? If belief is all that is needed to be saved and to be saved is to be free from sin, why was Saul of Tarsus still in his sins? He was still in his sins because he had not obeyed the gospel (Romans 10:16; Mark 16:16). He had not been immersed into Christ (Galatians 3:26-27) where there is shelter from the storm! This is the same thing that prompted the Eunuch to be baptized. He was still in his sins. As long as Philip preached the gospel, the Eunuch had not obeyed the gospel. The gospel message tells us that we must believe in Jesus for what He is (John 8:24), it tells us that we must repent of our sins (Luke 13:3,5), it tells us that we must confess Christ before man (Matthew 10:32-33), it tell us that we must be baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38), and it tell us that we must walk in the light of righteousness ( 1 John 1:7). The Eunuch went on his way rejoicing after his baptism. Why wasn't he rejoicing before? Well, he had learned that now with obedience to the commandments of the gospel he was saved. "By grace are you saved, THROUGH FAITH..." How, through believing. Grace comes after believing. Believing is doing (John 6:29). If we don't do it, we are not believing and we are not going to be saved. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). We must do that which has been presented from the gospel before we can be saved. Peter preached to Cornelius and his household (Acts 10) and they were later saved, but when? Were they saved before the preaching? No, or they were saved before faith, for faith come by hearing of the gospel (Romans 10:17) Were they saved after the Spirit decended upon them? No, because they had not obeyed the gospel (Romans 10:16). Then when was Cornelius and his house saved? After they obeyed the gospel (Hebrews 5:8-9). Trust and obey, for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus than to trust and obey!!"
JustAChristian
See Here is Water!!
[I haven't seen anyone here say that baptism saves in and of itself. It is the outward sign of an inward change - the dedication of the believer to their saviour. What's wrong with that?]
When the Eunuch of Acts 8:36 passed along side a pool beside the road that lead down to Gaza, what did he see? He saw water. Just plain ole desert pool water. Not mountain water, not sea water but pure "dyed in the wool" desert water. What did he want from that water? He wanted to be baptized. Why did he want to be baptized? Did Phillip say to him "Now that you are saved, you aught to show the world that you are save by being baptized. Is that what he said? No!! He said "if you believe you may be baptized. Baptism was essential for him because he was still in his sins. How do I know he was still in his sins. Well, I look into the Bible and I see where someone who was later baptized was told that he still had his sins after praying a long while. That man was Saul of Tarsus (Acts 22:13-16). Now, if Saul was still in his sin after hearing and knowing and believing in Jesus, for the context tells me so, why was he still in his sins? If belief is all that is needed to be saved and to be saved is to be free from sin, why was Saul of Tarsus still in his sins? He was still in his sins because he had not obeyed the gospel (Romans 10:16; Mark 16:16). He had not been immersed into Christ (Galatians 3:26-27) where there is shelter from the storm! This is the same thing that prompted the Eunuch to be baptized. He was still in his sins. As long as Philip preached the gospel, the Eunuch had not obeyed the gospel. The gospel message tells us that we must believe in Jesus for what He is (John 8:24), it tells us that we must repent of our sins (Luke 13:3,5), it tells us that we must confess Christ before man (Matthew 10:32-33), it tell us that we must be baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38), and it tell us that we must walk in the light of righteousness ( 1 John 1:7). The Eunuch went on his way rejoicing after his baptism. Why wasn't he rejoicing before? Well, he had learned that now with obedience to the commandments of the gospel he was saved. "By grace are you saved, THROUGH FAITH..." How, through believing. Grace comes after believing. Believing is doing (John 6:29). If we don't do it, we are not believing and we are not going to be saved. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). We must do that which has been presented from the gospel before we can be saved. Peter preached to Cornelius and his household (Acts 10) and they were later saved, but when? Were they saved before the preaching? No, or they were saved before faith, for faith come by hearing of the gospel (Romans 10:17) Were they saved after the Spirit decended upon them? No, because they had not obeyed the gospel (Romans 10:16). Then when was Cornelius and his house saved? After they obeyed the gospel (Hebrews 5:8-9). Trust and obey, for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus than to trust and obey!!"
JustAChristian
servantofChrist
New member
To all who think baptism is NOT necessary in order to be saved, would you please consider the following 2 points:
1. If there were no other passage in the entire New Testament on the subject of baptism, Matt. 28:19-20 alone should be sufficient proof that it MUST be obeyed. Especially if we understand and believe the meaning of the term - "Jesus is LORD."
Because Jesus gave a 3-part command which was UNIVERSAL in scope: "Therefore go and (1)make disciples OF ALL NATIONS (2) BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (3) and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I have commanded you...." And He had just COMMANDED "BAPTISM"! To whom? "ALL NATIONS."
Question: If you had been there when the Creator of our universe (John 1:2) gave that command, would you have said, "OK, LORD, I hear you, but obeying your command for baptism is NOT necessary for someone to be saved; let's get that straight right now!"?
2. The Holy Spirit said, through the apostle Peter - "Baptism now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21).
Those 4 words form an independent clause. "An independent clause is a group of words that has a subject and a predicate. They do not depend on anything else for their meaning. They express a complete thought" (Instant English Handbook, by Semmelmeyer and Bolander, p. 200).
Those 4 words spoken by Peter are a COMPLETE THOUGHT, a SELF-CONTAINED DECLARATION OF TRUTH. And "THEY DO NOT DEPEND ON ANYTHING ELSE FOR THEIR MEANING." No other words in this verse or anywhere else in the Bible contradict this plain statement of truth - "Baptism now saves you."
And I can well imagine why PETER, of all the inspired writers, made this statement. Because he was also the human vessel through which that same Holy Spirit said that baptism is "for the forgiveness of your sins" at the close of the first gospel message ever delivered (Acts 2:38).
Therefore, since baptism is "for the forgiveness of your sins," that is why "baptism now saves you," too.
1. If there were no other passage in the entire New Testament on the subject of baptism, Matt. 28:19-20 alone should be sufficient proof that it MUST be obeyed. Especially if we understand and believe the meaning of the term - "Jesus is LORD."
Because Jesus gave a 3-part command which was UNIVERSAL in scope: "Therefore go and (1)make disciples OF ALL NATIONS (2) BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (3) and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I have commanded you...." And He had just COMMANDED "BAPTISM"! To whom? "ALL NATIONS."
Question: If you had been there when the Creator of our universe (John 1:2) gave that command, would you have said, "OK, LORD, I hear you, but obeying your command for baptism is NOT necessary for someone to be saved; let's get that straight right now!"?
2. The Holy Spirit said, through the apostle Peter - "Baptism now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21).
Those 4 words form an independent clause. "An independent clause is a group of words that has a subject and a predicate. They do not depend on anything else for their meaning. They express a complete thought" (Instant English Handbook, by Semmelmeyer and Bolander, p. 200).
Those 4 words spoken by Peter are a COMPLETE THOUGHT, a SELF-CONTAINED DECLARATION OF TRUTH. And "THEY DO NOT DEPEND ON ANYTHING ELSE FOR THEIR MEANING." No other words in this verse or anywhere else in the Bible contradict this plain statement of truth - "Baptism now saves you."
And I can well imagine why PETER, of all the inspired writers, made this statement. Because he was also the human vessel through which that same Holy Spirit said that baptism is "for the forgiveness of your sins" at the close of the first gospel message ever delivered (Acts 2:38).
Therefore, since baptism is "for the forgiveness of your sins," that is why "baptism now saves you," too.
Freak
New member
Servant Christ,
Repentance is not part of the Gospel neither is belief. These are responses to the Gospel message. The Gospel is centered in the person of Jesus Christ not baptism. By the way, the blood of Christ is inferred in 1 Cor. 15 when Paul speaks of His death.
Reread 1 Cor. 15 where Paul reminds the believers of the Gospel.
Repentance is not part of the Gospel neither is belief. These are responses to the Gospel message. The Gospel is centered in the person of Jesus Christ not baptism. By the way, the blood of Christ is inferred in 1 Cor. 15 when Paul speaks of His death.
Reread 1 Cor. 15 where Paul reminds the believers of the Gospel.
Mathetes
New member
Freak said:
Heresy!
Peter says: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 2:38
Peter says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 3:19,26
Philip says: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 8:36-38 (Isa. 53:10)
Peter says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 10:36,37,43,47,48
Paul says: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 13:24,38,39 (Psa. 2:12; Isa. 55:6,7)
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 17:30
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Acts 26:18,20
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Romans 6:1-6
Paul says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - Colossians 2:9-15
Peter says again: Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, repentance, and baptism - 1 Peter 3:18-22
Nowhere do they insist that this is a 'response' - it is part of the gospel message.
Have you been baptized into Christ?