The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Ian Day]

Tralon,

Of course your texts are valid.

If we cannot show our faith by holy living, then our faith is not saving faith. We are saved FROM SIN, not to CONTINUE IN SIN.

Our salvation depends on the righteousness of Christ, and at the judgement will stand IN CHRIST ALONE.

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[/b]

I have selected from Romans 3 & 4. Please study the chapters, & read on.

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Rom 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

In no way are we claiming, saving faith without obedience, as you slanderously report, "Freak you expouse "easy believeism" which is widely taught in Christendom today and that is why it is hard to tell some Christians apart from the unsaved in the world today."

 

[rapt]

Ian,

I see easy believism blaspheming Christ's gospel from Freak's very first post in this string:

The heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!
As expected we have heretics spreading their destructive doctrines on this forum
This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Baptism is not a requirement!

...when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29). Note no mention of baptism.

Jesus made it clear O2bewise: I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

Again no mentione of baptism, apparently to o2bewise Jesus must have misspoken here.
I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus to come against O2bewise's devilish doctrines. This man degrades our Lord when He speaks against Him by stating Baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

I'm sorry, Ian, but I see NOTHING LESS than "easy believism" in Freak's very first post. He has an empty understanding of what "faith" is according to the scriptures. He slanders the very doctrine of Jesus Christ by omitting baptism, since when one RIGHTLY DIVIDES all the scriptures concerning salvation, he finds that Jesus INDEED said "He that believeth AND IS BAPTISED shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned".

Christ commissioned his disciples to "go into all nations TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU, BAPTISING THEM...". Yet Freak blasphemously calls this very doctrine a "devilish" one that will send people to hell. It is his doctrine of DENIAL of the gospel of Christ that is and has sent millions to hell. Anyone adding to or taking away from the gospel will have their part taken out of the book of life, and the plagues written in the bible will be added to him (Rev 22:18,19).

Freak even quotes Lk 14:33, which says that anyone who doesn't forsake all he has cannot be His disciple. Can't Freak see that he has CONTRADICTED HIMSELF? We don't see any mention of "forsaking all" in many other places where Jesus spake of the requirement to be His disciple! Can't he see that he hasn't yet "forsaken" his stubborness to completely believe all the things Jesus commanded? Can't he understand that Christ did not always give every requirement of discipleship (salvation) every time he gave an answer, but by the word "believe" that's what He MEANT? He didn't ALWAYS say one must "forsake all" to be His disciple, did He? He didn't always say to "repent". He didn't always say one must "endure to the end" to be saved. But once He did ask "Why call ye me Lord Lord, and DO NOT THE THINGS THAT I SAY?" By such a question He obviously meant to ask all those "easy believers" who take the word "believe" and vainly run with it like Freak does, who twist the grace of God into a license for sin (disobedience) by perverting the word "believe" to mean nothing but a hollow agreement of who Christ is wherein no obedience is required.

DEVILS believe like that! (James 2:19)

WE must repent, forsake all, be baptised, and WALK IN THE TRUTH to be saved. One is only in a saved condition as long as he abides in Christ. It is not a one time profession, it is a lifetime discipline, or one is decieving himself that he is saved "eternally" when he is yet in his sins.

Baptism is "for the remission of sins" according to Peter and Christ.

Certainly one must believe Christ to be saved. But it is changing the word "believe" into a lie and making the Word of God of none effect to say that baptism is "not required" just as it would be to say that forsaking all, repentance, continuance in the faith, love of the brethren, and many other requirements are not required, for if one truly "believes" in Christ he WILL submit to ALL of His doctrine. Baptism is only one requirement for salvation according to the doctrine of Christ and the apostles.

Faith without obedience to ALL the requirements of Christ for salvation is DEAD, being ALONE. So much for "faith alone".

 

[rapt]

Nonsense

Nonsense

HOG:

We can not avoid the truth of the matter which the apostles did not understand that this new testament for remission of sins superceded the old testament for remission of sins which was water baptism.

That is total NONSENSE. Peter understood the gospel of Christ (all except for the fact that He would yet grant the gentiles repentance too), and preached it in Acts 2:

Acts 2
38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

He had a PERFECT understanding of what gives us "remission of sins", and commanded it be done! Baptism for the remission of sins was given while the OT was yet valid through John, but Jesus brought in grace and truth by the New Covenant, which did NOT "supercede" it all, it confirmed it. Jesus taught His disciples to go into all the world with the gospel that included baptism for the remission of sins...AFTER He died and rose again.

HOG overlooks the fact that Peter had that same day RECEIVED THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and was speaking as the Spirit gave him utterance! Will he say that the Holy Spirit "didn't understand" what He was saying, or that He was lying??

I think we will all agree that if someone doesn't understand, it certainly wasn't the Holy Spirit through apostle Peter, it is those who reject His doctrine.

When the Holy Spirit led Peter into yet more truth, and showed him that the gentiles too could be saved and receive HIM, did Peter forsake water baptism for the remission of sins?

Certainly NOT!

 

[c.moore]

Hello Freak

you are doing a good job for Jesus Christ who is God Jehovah .

what`s up wth this group the Christadelphian, do they hate chritians that believe Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God?.

Do they think they are christian ????.

Do they believe he healing at least or do they believe it died with the apostals???

Are they worst than the mormons and JW`s?????.

do they think the the mormon doctrine that baptism saves, and when some one is not water baptized they are on their way to hell ??????.

Thanks if you can answer me
your evangelist friend in Germany from boston.

 

[rapt]

To be sure, Mr. Moore, I am no way a Christadelphian. I am not part of any denomonation or nondenomonation.

 

[Freak]

Hello my dear friend C. Moore.

It has been very trying to teach these cultisits the things of the Lord Jesus. Even with the slander and distortions I will continue to seek to defend the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise the Lord Jesus for believers like yourself that seek to defend the truth among the cults.

Yes, the Christadelphian Cult denies the Deity of the Lord Jesus. They deny the Triune nature of God and other essential doctrines of the Christian Faith. They attempt to cover themselves with the title "Christian" but discerning Christians need to be aware that this group is very dangerous. They seek to promote "doctrines of demons" that the apostle Paul warned us about. This group is not as large as the Mormons or JW's but "may" be more dangerous because they use the Holy Scriptures more so than these other groups, but their twisiting of Scripture is shameful. They may use the Scriptures but they deny it's power as they rip it apart for their own devilish doctrines.

They along with these other groups deny salvation is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. They seek to add works to the finished work of Christ. They believe Christ is not enough, one needs works, in order to get saved.

Rapt,

You are seeking to undermine the Lord Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross. You continue to promote a devilish doctrine. You believe good works will help you get to heaven and twist Scripture to try to prove your point. This is utter blasphemy. The Apostle Paul made it clear that it is not by "works" one is saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). Yes, I believe good works are a byproduct of ones salvations but they DO NOT SAVE YOU! If you believe good works are essential for salvation then you are preaching a different Gospel. You seek to slander me and I would urge you to stop. I preach Christ and His Lordship.

 

[rapt]

"believing" is defined by examining all the scriptures on that subject

"believing" is defined by examining all the scriptures on that subject

Luke 24:
45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying...
9
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Was Luke wrong to not mention baptism, when he spake of remission of sins being preached?

Was Peter wrong when he OBEYED this command in Acts 2 and elsewhere, saying that we must repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, that we might receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Was Paul wrong to obey it? (Even if Paul himself didn't baptise, he preached the same gospel of Christ! Jesus himself didn't do the baptising, but his disciples did: Jn 4:2)

Are they not all wrong who DENY it, preaching any other gospel?

 

[tralon]

Ian-I do agree with you,but......

Ian-I do agree with you,but......

Ian, I certainly agree with your post that we can only be saved by the grace of God through Christ's rightousness.But the issue I was trying to get accross was, that God does NOT honor a faith that is not a PRACTICING faith.See Heb 11. A true Christian must attempt to OBEY God in whatever he is taught to do as the word of God states.Christianity is a WALK of obedience as well as a heartfelt faith.


Today in most churches where "easy believeism" is preached, one is told all they have to do is believe AND GOD WILL TAKE CARE OF THE REST.BECAUSE YOU'RE ETERNALLY SECURE.I've known tons of people in my lifetime that consider water baptism as an option.Some when they get back home from church, live exactly the SAME lifestyle as the unsaved.When you confront them.They say, "God understands my weaknesses, and besides I'm saved."

Many times in Sunday school class the teacher will ask a SIMPLE question pertaining to the lesson and the majority of the class doesn't even respond.Because they haven't studied their lesson, let alone are they familiar with ther own bible and whart it teaches.

The thing that disturbs me is that alot of preachers are subscribing to this "easy believeism" teaching ,so they can increase the population of their churches.They use entertainment and anything to make the Christian families FEEL comfortable. They certainly DON'T want to preach a hard sermon on hellfire or practical "holiness" for everyday life.Most sermons contain scattered bible verses with added illustrations from the preacher and a joke or two thrown in.Just enough to make it sound SPIRITUAL but not to preachy.They DON'T want to UPSET anyone.Because they want them to return next week.

Years ago a great Baptist theologian Lewis Chafer wrote a book entitled "the Spiritual man" In this book he described the ideal of what a Christian should be.But at the same time he admited that MOST Christians are CARNAL or wordly Christians and do not live up to what they should be in Christ.His analysis was excellent and truthfull.But his error was not in saying that most Christians are carnal, rather than spiritual, but they will continue to be saved irregardless of their carnal behavior.This is where Chafer and I part company.

This SAME ideaology has crept into the modern church today.Our churches are FILLED with CARNAL Christians who do not realize that God expects his people to live holy lives. For Christians arn't saved IN their sins, but are saved FROM their sins. A Christian is saved to bring FORTH good works and to crucify the flesh.Of course we are NOT perfect and we will falter.But our primary goal should be to become more Christlike and wanting to OBEY what our Lord and Master wishes.That is what being a disciple is all about.

 

[rapt]

Amen, tralon, preach it!

2 Timothy 4
3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


1 Timothy 4
1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
2
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.


Jude 1
4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.


Acts 20
29
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

Though Jesus spake more about hell than anyone, most professing Christians don't want to hear any "fire and brimstone preachers"; they only wanna hear about "love, love, love; all ya need is love". "Faith ALONE" is "Lord lord" alone, without obedience to the Lord, which is DENIAL.

The five foolish virgins were somewhat believers, but they didn't make it.

The foolish man heard the word, but he didn't DO it. His house will fall.

Not everyone that says "Lord, lord" will enter the Kingdom of God. (It's not just for the phyisical Jews, either, all you disps that think it is. To enter the Kingdom of God means to be saved) Our salvation while yet in this life is a probation; we are to walk in fear, preparing ourselves, even as Noah moved with fear and prepared the ark for the SAVING of his household. He worked on that ark most of his life, didn't he (I don't remember how long he lived, but I do remember the ark took 120 years to build) Yet today, people are told their only responsibility is to walk down an eisle and "say a little prayer", and that's all there is to it: "NOW YOU'RE ETERNALLY SAVED, AND YOU CAN'T EVER DO ANYTHING TO LOSE IT".

What a crass, cheap definition of the most important decision in a person's entire life! It completely smacks of the commercialism of the denomonations; of the smooth way of the false prophets of old, and it degrades and trivializes salvation into a few moment, "four-step" program of carnality that denies the lifetime commitment commanded by the true gospel in order to obtain complete salvation.

And they have the gall to call that "evangelism"???

. . .

 

[JustAChristian]

Freak, you're on a bad road!

Freak, you're on a bad road!

It's amazing nobody has dealt with the scriptures that I was pointed out at the beginning, my first post on this thread.

I don't know. I thought I did a pretty good job on you earlier. Maybe we are not reading the same board. You were saying that 1 Cor. 15 gospel doesn't contain anything about baptism, I believe. Well, neither did Paul mention anything about repenting, but I believe repentence is of the gospel. He mentioned nothing about believing, but I believe that faith is of the gospel and I could go on and on. Not being a part of a certain context doen not negate a particular subject. Paul told the elders at Ephesus that he shunned not to declare "all the counsel of God" but he didn't limit it to the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. You are going to have to take another route, Freak, for this road your following want get you anywhere.

JustAChristian

 

[rapt]

Such blindness makes me remember one poster that said that because the word "covenant" is not found in Genesis concerning God's commandment to Adam and Eve, therefore there couldn't have been any covenant.

That's about as bright as saying that this sentence:

He fell down the stairs

doesn't say ANYTHING about the man stumbling because the word "stumble" isn't used!

How does one deal with such childishness, and the unwillingness to admit when one is wrong?

I guess Paul said it: "If any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant".

 

[JustAChristian]

Does Baptism for the remission of sins negate God's grace?

Does Baptism for the remission of sins negate God's grace?

May I prepose that the Scriptures teaches that water baptism is for, in order to obtain, the remission of past sins. We learn about this when we go to the verses that teach this. Passages on repentence is not found in verses that we go to in learning about faith. Likewise, passages on faith is not to be sought where we look for teaching about repentence. Passages on faith and repentence are not the place to learn about baptism unless this is where baptism is discussed. From all this we should conclude that the places to go to in order to learn about baptism is in the verses that teach baptism.

Baptism is commanded in the New Testament. It is not an option (Acts 10:37-38; 2:38; Mark 16:16; John 7:29-30). It is for penitent believers in a immersion in water (Acts 2:36-38;Col. 2:12; Rom. 6:4). The meaning of the word"baptizo" proves this. The act of baptism is for the remission of sins of the alien sinner, the forgivness which takes place in the mind of God.

With a view to the verses cited above, we must conclude that baptism stands between the sinner and salvation of his soul (Mark 16:16). It is as simple to conclude this as it is to conclude that he that eats and digests his food shall live, but he that does not eat shall die. Really, it doesn't take a genius. Baptism stands between the sinner and remision of sins (Acts 2:38). Baptism stands between the sinner and becoming a son of God (Galatians 3:26-27). If one is not baptized he or she is not in Christ. Salvation is in Christ along will all spiritual blessings (Eph. 1:3; 2 Tim. 1:10). If one is not baptized, he or she cannot be born again (John 3:3-5). He or she has not put on Christ.

Baptism in a body of water, for the remission of sins, spiritually washes away sins. (Actas 22:16). Saul of Tarsus had to be obedient to the command delivered by Ananias in order to have his sins removed. Can a son of God be in the likeness of Christ with the stigma of past sins untouched by the blood of Christ? I really don't think that harmonizes with the balance of the teaching of the apostles. Baptism must be understood to stand between the sinner and the blotting out of his or her sins (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19).

Baptism stands between the sinner and rconciliation unto God in one body (Eph. 2:14-16). The one body is the church (Eph 1:32). Finally we must conclude that baptism stands between the sinner and rejoicing because of the remission of sins (Acts 8:39; Acts 16:34; Acts 8:8). What caused the rejoicing and when did it occur? Thus, if one can be saved without baptism-- he or she can be saved

1. Without obeying Christ (Mark 16:16).
2. Without entering the Kingdom (John 3:5).
3 Without remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
4. Without blotting out of sins (Acts 3:19).
5. Without washing away of sins (Acts 22:16).
6. Without entering Christ (Romans 6:3).
7. Without the death and blood of Christ (Romans 6:3).
8. Without Christ having risen (Romans 6:4; 4:25).
9. Without walking in newness of life (Romans 6:4).
10. Without being redeemed (Ephesians 1:7).
11. Without being in Christ, putting on Christ and being a child of God. (Galatians 3:26-27; Eph 1:3).

Obey Christ in baptism and live eternally with Him. He commanded it. It is a part of the Gospel. It is essential for salvation. If not, disprove my proof texts.

JustAChristian

 

[rapt]

AMEN, JustaChristian! Right on!

(You know, as I read your list, it seems to me that the dispensationalists suppose that the fleshly Jews were/can be saved by a gospel that omits most if not all of those things)

 

[Ian Day]

Re: Does Baptism for the remission of sins negate God's grace?

Re: Does Baptism for the remission of sins negate God's grace?

May I prepose that the Scriptures teaches that water baptism is for, in order to obtain, the remission of past sins.
......................
Thus, if one can be saved without baptism-- he or she can be saved

1. Without obeying Christ (Mark 16:16).
2. Without entering the Kingdom (John 3:5).
3 Without remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
4. Without blotting out of sins (Acts 3:19).
5. Without washing away of sins (Acts 22:16).
6. Without entering Christ (Romans 6:3).
7. Without the death and blood of Christ (Romans 6:3).
8. Without Christ having risen (Romans 6:4; 4:25).
9. Without walking in newness of life (Romans 6:4).
10. Without being redeemed (Ephesians 1:7).
11. Without being in Christ, putting on Christ and being a child of God. (Galatians 3:26-27; Eph 1:3).

Obey Christ in baptism and live eternally with Him. He commanded it. It is a part of the Gospel. It is essential for salvation. If not, disprove my proof texts.

JustAChristian

Q1 "May I prepose that the Scriptures teaches that water baptism is for, in order to obtain, the remission of past sins. "

Of course you can, BUT its not true. Baptism, like circumcision, like the Lord's Supper, is a sign. It is a sign to the believer of what it means to be IN CHRIST. But it does not itself effect salvation. It is a sign for the saved believer.

Just as the sign of circumcision, [was] a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised:

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Please note that Romans 6 comes after Romans 1-5. Paul is writing systematic theology.

Baptism is the New Covenant SIGN of all those things but for the believer already who has repented & turned to God in faith.

Hebrews 9 shows us primarily that it is a sign of the applied blood of the sacrifice of Christ, the reality of which is attained by the renewing, regenerating of the Holy Spirit.

To make the sign of righteousness by faith in Christ essential to obtaining that righteousness is to deny that saving righteousness is by faith in Christ.

 

[Huguenot]

In the first century Church it was unheard of a person who was a Christian but not baptized. I am uncomfortable with the idea that some seem to express that "Baptism is optional". It kinda sounds like going to Burger King when they ask would you like cheese with your Whopper. On the other hand the Baptismal regeneration theory teaches infused grace that places salvation in a sacrament and not Christ.


I agree with Ian that it is a sign. To make a silly illustration, If one sees a Taco Bell sign one expects to find a restaurant. One would not expect the sign for a Taco Bell to be erected in an empty field nor would one expect to find a Taco Bell with no sign in front of it.

Is that illustation clear as mud?



I do think it is dangerous to say Acts 2:38 is not applicable today. It is! I think balance is the key to avoid hyper Dispensational "No Baptism" Theology on one hand and Baptismal Regeneration on the other.

 

[Freak]

Rapt & Just,

It is apparent you have chosen to remain spiritual darkness. That is a shame for you are degrading the Lord Jesus and His great salvation. You trust in baptism where I trust in Christ.

Since Christ was baptized do you believe He did it for a sign/symbolic reason or for Salvation??????????????

I hope and pray you will not say Jesus was baptized for salvation.

Interested in your answer.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Does Baptism for the remission of sins negate God's grace?

Re: Re: Does Baptism for the remission of sins negate God's grace?

Q1 "May I prepose that the Scriptures teaches that water baptism is for, in order to obtain, the remission of past sins. "

Of course you can, BUT its not true. Baptism, like circumcision, like the Lord's Supper, is a sign. It is a sign to the believer of what it means to be IN CHRIST. But it does not itself effect salvation. It is a sign for the saved believer.

Just as the sign of circumcision, [was] a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised:

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Please note that Romans 6 comes after Romans 1-5. Paul is writing systematic theology.

Baptism is the New Covenant SIGN of all those things but for the believer already who has repented & turned to God in faith.

Hebrews 9 shows us primarily that it is a sign of the applied blood of the sacrifice of Christ, the reality of which is attained by the renewing, regenerating of the Holy Spirit.

To make the sign of righteousness by faith in Christ essential to obtaining that righteousness is to deny that saving righteousness is by faith in Christ.

You failed to follow a systematic path of disprove my conclusion. Putting assertions in place of proof is not a viable solution to debate. Where does baptism ever speak of itself as a sign? We can not be a part of Christ without baptism: Note, Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." What were they added to? The Church. When were they added to the church? (Acts 2:47). Salvation is in the body (Eph 1:3) The body is the church (Col. 1:18). We are baptized into the church. Its that simple.

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

Answer my question Just a Christian....

 

[rapt]

Oh, Lord Jesus, if what Ian and Huguenot are saying is true, please convince me; I don't want to be a blind Pharisee; I want to know and believe the truth, not adding to or taking from Your commandments.

I have been studying with the Church of Christ, and am finding that they suppose that they are the only church. They deny being a "denomonation". I believe they are correct to say that Christ is not divided, as into many denomonations, for that is indeed confusion; Christ's doctrine is ONE, not many. But every cult I've ever been in has always claimed to be the ONLY church. So I discern a high red flag, warning me of danger.

They also have recently tried to refute the holiness churches' doctrines, some of which are indeed errors, but others that seem to me to be correct. They say that baptism in Jesus' name is a "misunderstanding", and that we must be baptised into the titles "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". But I don't believe for a second that Peter had any "misunderstanding" the day he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and spake as the Spirit gave him utterance, and taught baptism in Jesus' name! (Acts 2:28) I believe that there is ONE NAME given among men whereby we must be baptised and saved, and that is Jesus Christ (or Yashua, if you prefer Hebrew Acts 4:12). That is the name above all names, both in Heaven and Earth (Ephesians 1:21; Philippians 2:9).

The CoC also claims that the holiness church is in error concerning the gifts of the Spirit, and the baptism thereof. They claim that the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit was only ever received by the Apostles, and that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are now "done away". I think they are in error on both points, even though what I've seen practiced in the holiness church is very often an abuse of the gifts (if they are gifts at all to begin with), such as when a number of people in a congregation speak in "tongues" simultaniously (if it can even be called "tongues"; I think much of what is practiced is pure emotionalism; it is not spoken as the Spirit gives utterance), when scripture clearly forbids that, calling it "confusion". Also, any ONE person is forbidden to speak out loud in a congregation in tongues whenever there is no interpretation (1Cor 14). In such a case, one that truly speaks in an unknown tongue must do it "to himself and to God", keeping silence in the church . Anyone speaking out of his own emotionalism has no right to do it out loud or silently; he should completely DENY such a thing; it is of the flesh and not of God.

The holiness church is in great error to claim that a person is not saved unless he speaks in "tongues" (especially since they accept emotionalism in the place of the Spirit's utterance as evidence of His baptism), since scripture clearly shows that the Spirit doesn't give everyone the same gift, operation, or administration (1Cor 12) (i.e, not everyone will speak in tongues any more than everyone is a prophet, an apostle, or has the gift of miracles or healing).

In conclusion, I think the gifts are still given by the Spirit to the church as He will, but the church's responsibility is to restrict their use to scriptural guidelines, and not allow the confusion of emotionalism to rule rather than the Holy Spirit. If things are done decently and in order, as the scripture commands, there would be no abuse. I think baptism is still commanded, but I see a similarity between (OT) circumcision and (NT) baptism, in that circumcision could never have circumcised one's heart any more than baptism can wash away sins, for just as one can be immersed time after time and still never rise up "dead in Christ", so outward circumcision was also worthless unless true faith abode in one's heart. It seems true that both are signs; acts of obedience to the commandment of God, but not the very thing that cleanses the heart.

The blood of bulls and goats could never make a sacrificer's conscience perfect, but the blood of Christ can, and that is only ever obtained by faith, not by outward ceremony. On the other hand, disobedience to the commandment of God disannuls faith, for faith without works is dead.

I pray that my understanding will be a faithful response to what scripture commands rather than a fleshly reaction to those that deny the scriptures, including the NT commandment to be baptised.

 

[JustAChristian]

Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Why Was Jesus Baptized?

Rapt & Just,

It is apparent you have chosen to remain spiritual darkness. That is a shame for you are degrading the Lord Jesus and His great salvation. You trust in baptism where I trust in Christ.

Since Christ was baptized do you believe He did it for a sign/symbolic reason or for Salvation??????????????

I hope and pray you will not say Jesus was baptized for salvation.

Interested in your answer.

The Bible tells us:

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Psalms 119:172 ¶ My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

The verses tell us that Jesus was baptized to fulfil all righteousness. The commandments of the law disclose God's righteousness. It was essential for Jesus to show the righteousness of God in obeying His commands as a man. Jesus was baptized to fulfil the command of God.

Secondly, Jesus was baptized in order that God could manifest Him to the Jewish nation as the Messiah. (Matt. 3:17; John 1:31; Acts 10:38).

JustAChristian