The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Kevin]

drbrumley,

I'm not Catholic, but I do agree with them on the necessity of baptism for salvation.

The Bible teaches that salvation is a free gift that works can never buy.

God's grace is free in the sense that there was nothing that sinful man could do to earn salvation. Nothing. God offered grace when He didn't have to. We are indebted to Him forever.

However, works does play a role in our salvation. We don't do works because we are trying to earn our salvation, for no amount of works could ever atone for our sins. We do good works because we are expected to obey God's commandments. We do good works because we are obedient to God's commandments. Obeying God's commandments is absolutely essential for our salvation. Observe:

1 John 2:4
4) He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in them.

It's really quite simple. If we claim to know Jesus Christ, yet do not keep His commandments, we are liars, and the truth is not in us. Liars will not be in heaven. So, now that we know that we must keep His commandments, how can we do that without doing works? Can you answer this?

Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, and are incorporated into the Church..." Pg. 312, #1213


The Bible could not disagree more:

Actually, the Bible wholeheartedly agrees with is. Try reading Romans 6:1-11. It is speaking about baptism and that it allows us to walk in the newness of life (being reborn), and being free from sin.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12

Yes, but it's not a dead belief that is being spoken of here. James chapter 2 clearly says that faith only is a dead faith. Dead faith doesn't save anybody. It is the people who act on their belief who are in position to recieve God's saving grace. We are to obey the gospel, not just hear and believe.

When Christ was preaching in His ministry, He made it quite clear that obedience to His commandments are absolutely necessary. If you say that you have faith in Christ, yet you don't do the things that He commands us to do, do you honestly think He will find favor in them? No way. Just as He said:

Matt. 7:21
21)Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who DOES the will of My Father in heaven..

So, the people who make it into heaven are those who DO the will of the Father, not those who simply hear and believe and do not keep His commandments. For people to DO the will of the Father, people must actually DO something - WORK!! Yes, believe it or not, God actually requires us to do things!

Can you explain to me how one can "do the will of the Father" without actually doing something (works)?

Hebrews 5:9 clearly states that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who "OBEY" Him. Can you explain to me how we can show our obedience to Him without actually doing something (works)?

If baptism is necessary for salvation, would the Apostle Paul have proclaimed:

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." 1 Corinthians 1:17

Or would this same great man of God have stated:

"I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;" 1 Corinthians 1:14

Try going back and taking what Paul said in context. He said those things because the Corinthians were being divided over who baptized them. Paul's purpose was to preach the gospel, and part of that gospel message was BAPTISM. How else do you think they heard it? They then obeyed the gospel by being baptized in the name of the Lord. Baptism was commanded by the Lord and it was carried out. Nowhere in here does it say that baptism isn't necessary. Paul would never teach that obey Jesus's commandments are not necessary! You, and others alike, take this way out of context in a desparate (and futile) attempt to disprove baptism's necessary.

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:36-37

The Bible teaches that baptism should occur after salvation

Wrong. It is your assumption that these people were saved before baptism. If they didn't obey the command of baptism, which is one of His commandments, then they are liars, and the truth is not in them as previously stated in 1John 2:4. Liars won't be in heaven!!

 

[HopeofGlory]

The right testimony is everything!

The right testimony is everything!

Originally posted by Evangelion
Peter was present with Christ when he spoke these words:

• Matthew 26:27-28.And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
  
• John 6:53-56.
  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
  For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
  He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
  
• John 12:32-33.
  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
  This he said, signifying what death he should die.

These passages clearly declare the remission of sins through the shed blood of Christ. Peter would have understood them perfectly.

Faith in his shed blood for remission is the very essence of our salvation unto eternal life. We are saved the moment be believe He died for our sins. Those at Pentecost did not have this faith and thus did not receive eternal life. The kingdom promised was put on hold and it was offered to the Gentiles because they did not believe. It is never even mentioned to them at Pentecost that Christ died for their sins. Not one word about a "new" testament for remission of their sins. Where is what we have faith in mentioned at Pentecost?

The apostles did not believe in his shed blood and they had no understanding of it. Their remission of sins came through water baptism. They were not baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ through faith.

Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Luke 22:20 (KJV)
But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. Luke 22:21 (KJV)
And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! Luke 22:22 (KJV)
And they began to inquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing. Luke 22:23 (KJV)
And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. Luke 22:24 (KJV)

Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. Luke 22:28 (KJV)
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; Luke 22:29 (KJV)
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:30 (KJV)
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: Luke 22:31 (KJV)
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32 (KJV)

The apostles argued among themselves as our Savior was telling them of the power of his shed blood and speaks of Peter being converted. Peter will later be converted with the truth of these words Christ spoke.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:53 (KJV)
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said,This is an hard saying; who can hear it? John 6:60 (KJV)
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? John 6:61 (KJV)
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65 (KJV)
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. John 6:66 (KJV)
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? John 6:67 (KJV)
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. John 6:68 (KJV)
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? John 6:70 (KJV)

The sower soweth the word. Mark 4:14 (KJV)
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. Mark 4:15 (KJV)

Jesus was telling them the way to eternal life is faith in his blood but it offends them. Peter says that Jesus has the words but he does not say he has faith in it. Peter does say that he believes Jesus is the Son of God. Remember in Luke 22:32 Jesus said that he would be converted later on. Jesus said he chose the twelve and one is a devil. His choosing them was not based on their faith in the new testament which baptizes us into the body by the Spirit. His choice was based on their belief that he was the Son of God and they could be a witness to his death.

In Christ
Craig

 

[Kevin]

Hope of Glory,

This type of statement displays your lack of knowledge in the word of God.

Whatever. Your ignorance is only highlighted when you claim that Phillip didn't preach Christ's death to the eunuch. Evangelion crushed this assertion with:

"The eunuch was reading Isaiah 53. He knew that it was talking about an innocent man who had suffered unjustly, but he didn't know who the man was. So he asked Philip to explain Isaiah 53 - which Philip did. Subsequently, the eunuch was baptised.

Now, would anyone like to tell me how Philip could have explained the Christological significance of Isaiah 53 without making reference to the sacrifice of Christ, and the salvation we obtain through his death and resurrection?"

You failed to answer it. It's hard to admit when you're wrong, isn't it. I don't think you are in a position to judge my knowledge of the word of God.

---------------------------

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom. 3:12 (KJV)

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Rom. 7:18 (KJV)

Ok, I'll give it to you that somebody who does not know God cannot do good things in God's sight. However, one who does not know God can do the same works that are considered good works by a Christian.

For example, the people in Matt. 25:41-46 were thrown into hell because of their lack of good works. You can't tell me that they didn't have faith, for they recognized Jesus as Lord, as well as calling Him their Lord. These passages are proof that somebody can have faith without works, which according to Dan37 is impossible.

Now, some examples mentioned in those passages are:

1) "I was hungry, and you gave me no food". Are you willing to make the bold assertion that there has never been a person, who did not believe in God, who didn't feed a hungry person?

2) "I was a stranger, and you did not take me in." Are you willing to make the bold assertion that there has never been a person, who did not believe in God, who didn't take in a stranger?

3) "Sick and in prison, and you did not visit me." Are you willing to make the bold assertion that there has never been a person, who did not believe in God, who didn't visit a person in prison?

Now, I realize that because none of this means anything to God, that it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to clarify that people who do not know God CAN and DO do the same works that are considered "Good works" when done by Christians with faith.

None of this changes the fact that the people who are going to make it are the ones who DO the will of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21). It is impossible to "DO" the will of the Father without doing something --- WORKS!

 

[HopeofGlory]

Evangelion,

I said:
If you truly had faith in His blood you would have the knowledge to understand the power of God to forgive sins without water baptism.

You asked:
Show me where this is written in Scripture.

My reply:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)

You said:
Here, read this:

I John 5:2-4.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

If you're not keeping God's commandments, you're not one of His children. If you're not one of His children, you're not going to be saved.

Can you tell me how we might be saved without obeying Christ? Can you tell me that?

My reply:
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. Luke 12:33 (KJV)

... go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. Mark 10:21 (KJV)

Have you obeyed as did the church at Pentecost??????

Answer the question!!!

Is the answer no?

Are you saved?

You said:
Obedience to Christ does not count as a "work."

My reply:
So then, is this obedience you're referring to a righteous work?

Your response:
Yes, this obedience I am referring to is a righteous work. And a righteous work is not counted as a "work" in the sense of something which earns you something else. People were even permitted to perform righteous works on the Sabbath day. What does that tell you?

My reply:
Double talk!
If water baptisim is a righteous work why is it that you believe it is required for salvation?
Can can't say something is required and then say it doesn't count
toward that same something it is required for.
Explain!

You said:
When Paul refers to "works", he refers to the works of the Law of Moses. Your entire argument is based on a false equivocation.

My reply:
Reading into scriptures words that are clearly not there is not allowed. "Works of the law" does not specifically refer to the law of Moses.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. Rom. 4:2 (KJV)

Your point is works=works of the law of Moses? Is that right?

You said:
I should have been more specific. Paul does not always mean the Law of Moses - but most often, he does. In this case, he merely reminds us that Abraham did not earn his salvation, which is perfectly true.

My reply:

You said "but most often, he does".

Are you sure?

If you're not specific about a doctrine something will be taken for granted and a false understanding can be the result.

You said:
Salvation is not an instant event. Salvation is something which comes as the result of a lifelong process.

My reply:
You're dead wrong!

In Christ
Craig

 

[Prisca]

HopeofGlory

HopeofGlory

You said, “But the Bible disagrees again, stating that the eternal destiny of God's children has been sealed with the Holy Spirit:

‘... in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,’ Ephesians 1:13
‘And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.’ Ephesians 4:30”

You are right on. Sadly, the word “sealed” doesn’t hold as much significance in today’s society as it once did. We can get a different feel for the meaning of this word by looking at the following verses:

Esth. 8:8 “You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

Dan. 6:17 Then a stone was brought and laid on the mouth of the den, and the king sealed it with his own signet ring and with the signets of his lords, that the purpose concerning Daniel might not be changed.

Rev. 5:1-5 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

I’d like to stress that, as Christians in the Body of Christ, we were sealed and given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee:

2Cor. 1:20-22 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

What God has sealed, no one can revoke!

 

[c.moore]

Kevin

The whole time on this thread of water baptism ritual, you mention about obedience.

You also believe that Jesus lives in us, and if jesus lives in us , then we should want to obey, because jesus knows how to obey, so we will be lead by the Holy Spirit to obey,so we don`t obey to earn salvation,or work on our own powers, to obey,but the Spirit in us motivate us to want to obey, and the Spirit gives us the Joy , and strength to be obedience.

Do you obey just because you are taken orders like a soldier in the marines, or do you obey because you have faith in Jesus , and you love Him????

You ask me about dead works is this faith,"but" you must first study what faith is to get the revelation, why wer beleive faith alone is the key to salvation, and sence we have the key, we use the key to work to go through the door, but faith we do have , and the key of salvation we do already have, so if you have this what will stop us for wanting to use this key,even if it involves work to open the door.

Another example is when I am starving to death , and somebody says give you permission to go into my store and eat all you want for free,just take this key,and go.
First you have to believe what he is say is true to even start to take a key that might not be the true key to the shop, so you need faith to beleive what he is offering, and after you have faith in the person you take the key, and of course you will go with Joy and pleasure to the store , and work to open the door to the store , and open the cans, and other things in the store to eat want you want, "but " you don`t do these things of openning the can , and bags, to try to get the key to the store, or to gain permission to enter the store,because it was a gift from the owner to eat as much as you want , and he if pleased that you do as he says to gain your life back and don`t starve to death.

the same is with being saved and having salvation.
the part really gave this person life again was the permission, which is only words, that give this person hope.
That why Heb 11 says Faith is the things hope for.

Remember that God is spirit, and the Spiritual world is the real world for God kingdom, and when we come to the Lord Jesus as our savior, we accept Him in our heart in the spirit.

When we accept the blood of Jesus for repentance we accept in the spirit,

When we get baptized , the spiritual baptism is the real baptism for God, not the fleshly carnal outwards water baptism.

We do get baptized because we want to show , and reveal also to ourselves what happen in the spirit baptism that counts for God,and is very important.

The water baptisim is just,just in your walk, and growth as a christian shoould walk in, including obedience.
Salvation is in the Spiritual world, the same with forgiveness, is done with the blod of Jesus, which is not seen in the natural world, and love, and the trust is also not shown in the natural, but the fruits will come out sooner or latter.
Only God know what is in the heart, and the natural man can only see by our action sometime what is really in us, but the thing IN us, IN,us, is that what make us what we are and will be,and when the thing in us are of God the works, and obeying will take place .

peace

 

[Freak]

Jesus is the source of our salvation not water baptism, Kevin. When will you ever learn?

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

You ask me about dead works is this faith,"but" you must first study what faith is to get the revelation, why wer beleive faith alone is the key to salvation, and sence we have the key, we use the key to work to go through the door, but faith we do have , and the key of salvation we do already have, so if you have this what will stop us for wanting to use this key,even if it involves work to open the door.

But don't you see, c.moore, that unless you actually use that key and go through the door, that that key won't do you any good until you do that? Same with faith. It doesn't do any good to have faith in Christ if you don't do what He says.

the same is with being saved and having salvation.
the part really gave this person life again was the permission, which is only words, that give this person hope.

But that's just not true. You are saying that one who hears the words, yet does not act on them, is already saved. That's not what the Bible teaches. I've shown you and others alike that 1John 2:4 states that people who say they know the Lord (hearing the words), yet do not keep His commandments, are liars, and the truth is not in them. Liars will not be in heaven, c.moore.

You are saying that people who hear the word and do nothing are saved by their faith only, which not only goes against that 1John passage I just referenced, but also Matt. 7:21. Its states that not everybody who says "Lord, Lord" will be in heaven, but only those who "DO" the will of the Father. To DO the will of the Father, you HAVE to do something-- Works.

You agree with me that faith by itself is dead, yet you say that faith only saves. Well, I ask again, knowing that faith only is a dead faith, how can a dead faith save anybody, c.moore? Can you answer that?

When we get baptized , the spiritual baptism is the real baptism for God, not the fleshly carnal outwards water baptism.

Wrong. We have examples of more than one apostle going out and baptizing people in the name of the Lord. Baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water (Acts 10:47-48). The apostle's actual examples of baptism disagrees with your assertion.

We do get baptized because we want to show , and reveal also to ourselves what happen in the spirit baptism that counts for God,and is very important

Nowhere in scripture will you find proof texts that supports this assertion. Nowhere. I've shown you more than one what the scriptures says about the purpose of baptism and what it does for us: frees us from sin and allows us to walk in the newness of life (Romans 6:1-11). And no, this isn't spririt baptism as you incorrectly think. Paul wrote Romans 6 and Paul practiced baptizing people in the name of the Lord, which is done with water (Acts 10:44-47).

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Jesus is the source of our salvation not water baptism, Kevin. When will you ever learn?

Actaully, the Bible says that Jesus is the source of salvation for all who "obey" Him (Heb. 5:9). If you dont obey Jesus, you won't be saved. How can you obey Jesus without works, Freak? How?

When will you ever learn?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Liars will not be in heaven.

Just a one sin makes a man a sinner,so one lie makes man a liar.

Is there any here that have not told a lie?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Kevin]

Jerry,

Is there any here that have not told a lie?

Unlikely. Fortunately, all we have to do is ask Jesus to forgive us, and stop lying.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

So you mean that there liars in heaven,only that they will be forgiven liars?

You are quite correct that thosewho obey Him are the ones that will be saved.But the first think that we must obey Him when he says to BELIEVE Him.

And once we believe Him,we are no longer under the demands of law and are not under law.And these words apply to those who have believed:

"Because the law worketh wrath;for where no law is,there is no transgression"(Ro.4:15).

And since the believer is not under law.the Lord will not impute his transgressions to his account:

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"(Ro.4:8).

The believer has the "righteousness of God",and he is not judged by his own righteousness.As Paul says:

"And be found in Him,not having my own righteousness,which is of law,but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ,the righteousness which is of God by faith"(Phil.3:9).

When we believe God,we are DECLARED righteous by God,even though we ourselves are not righteousness.And Scripture declares that the sinner receives this "rightousness" which is of God is ours by "faith".

He died that we might be made the "righteousness of God",and you continue to insist that we must make ourselves righteous.

"For He hath made Him,Who knew no sin,to be sin for us,that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him"(2Cor.5:21).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[agape]

Re: Re: Grace is God's part - Faith is man's part...

Re: Re: Grace is God's part - Faith is man's part...

Originally posted by dan37
We can have faith IN Christ, but man does not have the faith OF Christ. Romans 10:17 tells us our faith comes from the word of God and this is the faith that man comes to have.

Hmmm...Here is what I SAID:

Quote: "The faith of Jesus Christ came by hearing the Word of God, which was hearing about Christ and all he accomplished for them through his life, suffering, death, resurrection, ascension and his now being seated at the right hand of God also signifying that "all is finished." Nothing more can be accomplished for man's salvation...not even water baptism. Jesus Christ did all the works necessary to save us and to give us eternal life. We received the gift of holy spirit thereby becoming righteous (Romans 10:9 and 10).

Today, all who believe regarding the Lord Jesus Christ receive the gift of holy spirit. All of us who are born again have the spirit of Christ in us and therefore spiritually we have Christ's belief within us – now it is up to our freedom of will to align "our walk of faith" accordingly."

I NEVER SAID that we have "someone else's believing." Please read what immediately follows "spiritually we have Christ's belief within us, which I put in bold letters.

What I was saying, according to James 2:1 was that the faith or believing of Jesus Christ is the same believing we should have because we have Christ in us. We have the same heart of compassion, love and mercy in us as Christ himself possessed. This same belief, is in us spiritually and we should align "our" faith or walk of faith accordingly.

When they showed themselves with respect of persons, and spoke words of compassion to the poor person, but did nothing about it, they were not having or holding the faith of Jesus Christ. In other words, they were not handling the situation with the same heart of love and compassion as Jesus Christ would have handled the situation.

Their faith was without works...just words. Jesus Christ "actively believed"...he took action and did something with those who came to him in need. They were not following the example of their Lord who saved them and made them whole. When someone is sick or in dire need and that need does not get met, will your faith, without works, without acting out on your faith, save them? Will they leave "whole?"

This is what James is talking about when he said faith, WITHOUT WORKS, is dead. Nothing is done about it. All talk and no action. Jesus Christ always took some kind of action.

It's as simple as all that. No guess work, mystery or puzzle to that chapter.

There are other verses in the Word of God where "the faith of Jesus Christ" is mentioned. In some verses, the faith of Jesus Christ is specifically referring to the "accomplished believing" of Jesus Christ. In other words, all that Jesus Christ accomplished through "his" believing, which was what God told him to do for the redemption and salvation of mankind is received by us when we do Romans 10:9 and 10. There is nothing that anyone can do or add to our salvation, which includes "water baptism." We believe in the faith which God gave, which is to believe in the faith or accomplished believing of Jesus Christ. He did the "works of believing" for us, which nulls and void any works of any kind that man can do, including "water baptism. "Water baptism" has no bearings or can lend anything to the perfect believing of Jesus Christ which brought us our perfect and complete salvation.

 

[c.moore]

Kevin
Why You didn`t answer my main questions like Do you obey just because you are taken orders like a soldier in the marines, or do you obey because you have faith in Jesus , and you love Him????

peace

 

[JustAChristian]

Faith In The Shed Blood

Faith In The Shed Blood

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Access to grace is by faith in the shed blood of Christ.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

Faith is required not obedience to water baptism which is a "work" of the flesh. If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore no more “work” is required for salvation. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required and are still in their sins.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

We are justified by His blood of the "new" testament and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God (John 5:36) and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

The contrast is clearly defined when compared with...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him (Acts 5:32). It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free". Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)

Note the contrast! It says baptized "into Jesus" as compared to "into water". How are we to get into Jesus?..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) (KJV)...and it is the "one" baptism (Eph. 4:5) for us today.

Our baptism is an operation of God not man!

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

Hello Again Everybody!

I have been out of town for a few days, but now I am back. Seems like Craig is still on his "Hobby Horse". Yes, Craig, we believe that salvation come by faith in the shed blood of Christ. We believe that we come into contact with the blood of Christ in baptism and attribute Romans 6:3-5 as scriptural basis. Christ shed his blood in his death, and we are baptized into the death of Christ in baptism. How, and by what scripture do you attribute your contact with the blood of Christ?

JustAChristian

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

We can see that the "baptism" of Romans 6:3-5 is about those who were "baptized into Jesus Christ":

"Know ye not that,as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?"

The ONLY place in Scripture where the believer is baptized into Christ it is by the Holy Spirit:

"For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).

"For as many as you have been baptized INTO CHRIST have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek...for ye are all one IN CHRIST JESUS"(Gal.3:27,28).

This is speaking of the Body of Christ,where there is neither Greek or Jew.

"And ye have put on the NEW MAN...where there is neither Greek nor Jew"(Col.3:10,11).

The NEW MAN is the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in His flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances,to make IN HIMSELF of two ONE NEW MAN"(Eph.2:15,16).

The only SCRIPTUAL baptism spoken of in regard to the New Man,the Body of Christ is that spoken by Paul:

"For by one SPIRIT were we all BAPTIZED into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

So JustAChristian,if you still insist that the baptism "into Jesus Christ"(Ro.6:3-5) refers to a "water baptism",where is your Scriptual evidence that states such a thing?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Kevin]

Jerry,

So you mean that there liars in heaven,only that they will be forgiven liars?

No. There will be no liars in heaven. If somebody lies and then asks for forgiveness with a repentative heart, Jesus will forgive him, and he is no longer a liar. That's the whole idea of forgiveness. If they are still liars after forgiveness, then they weren't actually forgiven.

And once we believe Him,we are no longer under the demands of law and are not under law.

Of course we are not under the law, but we are most certainly expected to keep Christ's commandments as Christians. In order to do that, one must actually DO something-- works.

You're out of your mind if you think that we don't have to do anything after believing in Him. Try telling the people mentioned in Matt. 25:41-46 that faith only saves.

 

[Kevin]

C.moore,

Why You didn`t answer my main questions like Do you obey just because you are taken orders like a soldier in the marines, or do you obey because you have faith in Jesus , and you love Him????

Sorry for not answering your question. I obey because of both fear and love for my God. My answer really has no bearing on the fact that God expects obedience out of us.

Now, will you answer my questions?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

Please no not put words in my mouth that I never said.

I never said that we do not have to do anything after believing.I said that we are not under law,and when there is no law there is no transgression.

You said nothing about those verses.

I also pointed out that the believer has the "righteousness of God" and not his "own righteousness",which is of law.

But you said nothing about those verses.

Now you say that I am teaching that we do not have to do anything after we believe,and that is not true.

We are called to be "ambassadors for Christ"(2Cor.5:20) and are given the "ministry of reconciliation"(2Cor.5:18). This is our "service" for Him. And we are to keep ourselves spotless as we serve Him:

"I beseech you,therefore,brethren,by the mercies of God,that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice,holy,acceptable to God,which is your REASONABLE SERVICE"(Ro.12:1).

So as you can see,I do not advocate that the Christian does not have to do anything after he believes.

Now perhaps you will address the verses that I provided that state that the transgressions of Christians will not be imputed to their account:

"Blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin"(Ro.4:8).

And if a man has no sin accounted to him,then he will not come into judgment.And that is exactly what the Lord says of those who BELIEVE:

"He that heareth My word,and believeth on Him that sent Me,hath everlasting life,and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT,but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Apollos]

For by the direction of the one Spirit we are baptized into the one body...

For by the direction of the one Spirit we are baptized into the one body...

Jerry S –

It has been a while. I hope you are well and that life is good for you.

Your claim that 1 Corinthians 12:13 is speaking of HS baptism CONTRADICTS the apostle Paul’s preaching and practice.

Your misunderstanding of what the “new man” is leads you to a faulty conclusion. The "new man" is NOT the body of Christ, but rather, he is one that is IN the body of Christ. (Prepositions are so important!)

The “new man” is the saved man, the “man” that is IN Christ. The physical parameters of Jew or Gentile are no longer recognized by being IN Christ – the “new man” is saved – in Christ – in the body (which is the church – Col. 1:18) !! Man can only get “IN” by water baptism – just as God selected – Gal. 3:27.

I know that Romans 6 is speaking about WATER baptism because Paul preached and practiced the only baptism that Christ authorized for all nations – Matthew 28:18f. Baptism in His name is WATER baptism.

(I am sure that JaC will answer for himself, but I wanted to chip-in.)

You need more than a misunderstanding of what the “new man” is to substantiate your claim that 1 Cor. 12:13 is talking about HS baptism. Where is your proof??