The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
JustaChristian,

I and others have provided multiple scriptures clearly explaining the difference between Paul's gospel of faith without works and Peter's gospel of faith plus works yet you refuse to believe. The gospel of grace is not Acts 2:38! The shed blood of Christ is not there as is the Jewish Pentecostal experience. I beleive in the new testament truth first delivered by Paul that Christ died for my sins and through faith in His shed blood I receive remission. Show us where this message was delivered at Pentecost. Without faith in the shed blood of Christ there is no remission unless you believe Evangelion.



drbrumley,

Great post! Truth is worth defending.

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph. 3:9 (KJV)
To the intent that NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph. 3:10 (KJV)
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph. 3:11 (KJV)
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Eph. 3:12 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

I guess you figure it is easier to say a thing than to try to discredit my statements. More rhetoric on your part and no information to discredit my part. I guess you really don't want to deal with this issue.

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

Just,

Are you telling me Jesus was lacking something prior to His baptism?

Jesus was completely God prior to His baptism. The baptism was simply a powerful symbolic act.

Water baptism is unable to save. When we come to Christ we are fully indwelt with Him, baptism does nothing more then show to others the inner transformation that has already occured.

 

[JustAChristian]

Was Jesus Lacking Anything?

Was Jesus Lacking Anything?

Originally posted by Freak
Just,

Are you telling me Jesus was lacking something prior to His baptism?

Jesus was completely God prior to His baptism. The baptism was simply a powerful symbolic act.

Water baptism is unable to save. When we come to Christ we are fully indwelt with Him, baptism does nothing more then show to others the inner transformation that has already occured.

Let us look at the verse:

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

No, I don't think Jesus was lacking anything for he possessed the of the Godhead bodily (Col. 2:9). But, he had to fulfil all righteousness. What is righteousness? the Psalmist says,

Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

All thy commandments are righteousness. So, Jesus was under commandment to fulfil all righteousness. He needed to obey this commandment in order to fully comply with the righteousness of God. You say the the baptism was simply a powerful act. What basis do you justify that statement? True, he set an example in life, that we should walk in his steps (1 Peter 2:21), and we need to look to his examples. If Jesus was willing to leave heaven, come to earth as a child. rise in maturity to become favored with God and man, suffer and die on the cross for our sins, might it be that we should look strongly at all his examples of obedience. All that he has left us is for our benefit. Obeying the commandments of Christ will bring us eternal life with the Father (John 14:21).

Water baptism is unable to save. When we come to Christ we are fully indwelt with Him, baptism does nothing more then show to others the inner transformation that has already occured.

You look to the physical side of baptism and therefore can not see the spiritual side. Peter, an inspired apostle of God said:

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I will base my faith in Jesus Christ considering all the counsel of God (Acts 20:28). This that Peter has said is most important and worthy of our utmost consideration.

JustAChristian

 

[Evangelion]

H.O.G. -

Explain to us how the new testament is not dependent
on the shedding of blood.

Very simple. It's called "grace." After all, when's the last time you offered a sacrifice to God, eh?

How does one receive remission without the shed blood of Christ?

One doesn't. Christ's sacrifice (which marked the zenith of the Old Covenant) covers sin for all time. He was sacrificed while the Old Covenant was still in effect - and the power of his sacrifice is everlasting.

Remember, Christ doesn't have to be sacrificed every time a new Christian is "born again." Instead, that one sacrifice (offered in Israel, more than 1900 years ago) covers the sins of all those who (a) believe in its power to save, and (b) obey Christ's commandments.

That's the whole point.

 

[Evangelion]

drbrumley -

So Christians can't have testimonies.

*snip*

Straw man. Please go back and read what I wrote.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Evangelion
c.moore - so you are using the "testimonials" method to sell Christianity!

That's outrageous!

Quote c.moore

The gospel and testimony is free, and salvation is freely given, and freely recieved.

Just because people don`t accept your gospel, you don`t have to accept our testimonys, but other will enjoy, and give God praise for them.

Let God bless you

 

[Evangelion]

H.O.G. -

Agape,



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philip preached Christ in this same matter as he had been taught. The eunuch believed that Jesus Christ died for his sins and that God raised him from the dead was saved and born again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This you must prove! Where is the scripture that tells us the eunuch knew that Christ died for his sins?

Ever read the book of Acts?

• 
  Acts 8:26-38.
  And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
  And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
  Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Isaiah the prophet.
  Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
  And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaiah, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
  And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
  The place of the Scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
  In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
  And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same Scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
  And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
  And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

The eunuch was reading Isaiah 53. He knew that it was talking about an innocent man who had suffered unjustly, but he didn't know who the man was. So he asked Philip to explain Isaiah 53 - which Philip did. Subsequently, the eunuch was baptised.

Now, would anyone like to tell me how Philip could have explained the Christological significance of Isaiah 53 without making reference to the sacrifice of Christ, and the salvation we obtain through his death and resurrection?

Be my guest...

 

[Apollos]

Water baptism is NOT "symbolic" or a "witness" of anything...

Water baptism is NOT "symbolic" or a "witness" of anything...

Edgar –

I think we agree that there are NO scriptures to indicate that water baptism is a “symbol” or a “witness” for anything. The passage for this is nonexistent !!

Coming to realize that there is no such reference of “symbolism” with water baptism is the first step in coming to an understanding of what water baptism is FOR and what water baptism DOES !!

Of course the body of Christ – the church – was established beginning in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost there, but that is a topic for another thread. But one of the prerequisites to being “added to the saved” is water baptism. Acts 2:41

And yes, this does continue today. Christ’s authorized baptism was for ALL nations. Matthew 28:18,19.

Ephesians 2:8 does not say by “faith only” (or more accurately “belief only”), but verse 10 tells us there are some works God prepared for “us” to walk in, although these are not boastful works!

 

[Kevin]

Amen and Amen!

Amen and Amen!

Evangelion,

The eunuch was reading Isaiah 53. He knew that it was talking about an innocent man who had suffered unjustly, but he didn't know who the man was. So he asked Philip to explain Isaiah 53 - which Philip did. Subsequently, the eunuch was baptised.

Now, would anyone like to tell me how Philip could have explained the Christological significance of Isaiah 53 without making reference to the sacrifice of Christ, and the salvation we obtain through his death and resurrection?

Excellent point... excellent point indeed! :up:

 

[c.moore]

This is something I don`t understand about religious spirits, and those with other doctrines, is that when A scripture or chapter comes against thier belif it is automatically wrong, or the translator had a bad day, or it not correct hebrew ,or greek.

But When the scripture doesn`t say nothing about thier doctrine it is Holy , from God , and perfect translated.

M't:22:9: Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Now, when we read this scripture for instance , you will have no arguement , or debate, about we should all go and tell everybody to get married, and if you are not married to somebody you are not obedient.
So everybody should have a partner, and also everybody must have a wedding.

I know I am exagerating, but I have to try to get a point over on how people miss the message , and don`t get the real understanding.

Now, if somebody had a doctrine, or religion that stands , and believe`s on a theology of marraige, you will have to argue with them about this verse, and they would use the greek ,on marriage, and tell you are not keep the verse in context, and you can`t read what it plainly says.

But who is right, and has the truth?

How can you convince them with out judging them??

this is the same with the JHW , and Mormons, and many decieved people.

No Matter what subject come to the TOL , there will always be somebody that will try to prove different, with all thier heart.

paul killed christian , with all his heart, and knew he was dong God a favor, until God open his eyes, and that really the only way somebody can come to the truth.
Paul was a good teacher of theology, but hje didn`t win many people by his theology, it was with the power, and sighns of God.
Even demons knew who paul was.

It is hard work to convince demonic religious spirit the truth.
But if I have time to waste, I will put some good true word so the decieve can at least think about it.

Be blessed

 

[Evangelion]

Kevin -

Evangelion,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The eunuch was reading Isaiah 53. He knew that it was talking about an innocent man who had suffered unjustly, but he didn't know who the man was. So he asked Philip to explain Isaiah 53 - which Philip did. Subsequently, the eunuch was baptised.

Now, would anyone like to tell me how Philip could have explained the Christological significance of Isaiah 53 without making reference to the sacrifice of Christ, and the salvation we obtain through his death and resurrection?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent point... excellent point indeed!

Heheh... thanks mate. One does one's humble best...

It's amazing how often people will overlook a single, poignant passage of Scripture simply because it does not agree with their theological preconceptions.

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

It is hard work to convince demonic religious spirit the truth.

Indeed it is. Since you supposedly have the "truth", could you answer the simple question that I asked Freak? Is faith without works dead? It's a simple yes or no question that would be very easy to answer if somebody has the truth. So what do you say?

 

[c.moore]

Kevin said:
Indeed it is. Since you supposedly have the "truth", could you answer the simple question that I asked Freak? Is faith without works dead? It's a simple yes or no question that would be very easy to answer if somebody has the truth. So what do you say?



Quote c.moore

If you want to learn from the bible ,the Word of God , them I will answer your question, but if you want to let other spirits that not of God manifest , then act like I didn`t answer your question ok?

I am not the truth , the Holy Spirit is the truth, and The Jesus in me is the truth.
I am just a willing temple that Jesus uses for His kingdom, so if your question is so simple I guess you already know the answer, or you are trying to trap somebody in believing that we must work for our salvation , and push Jesus the finish work of God to the side and we do the work that Jesus already done, but I`ll answer your question any way, so you can prove your understanding like I said about marraige doctrine example in my last post,but here we go again.

Is faith without works dead? yes

But look at the context of what faith is before you earn merits to make faith alive.

Heb:11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for
not
Heb:11:1: Now faith is the substance of things worked for
Heb:11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb:11:2: For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb:11:3: Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Is this ivisible works, and that is what you mean is faith without works is dead??
OOOOHhHH yes.

peace

 

[Kevin]

Thanks for answering.

Thanks for answering.

c.moore,

Is faith without works dead? yes

Ok. Progress. Now that you've acknowledged that faith by itself is dead (without works), would you explain to me how a you can say with a clear conscience that faith "only" saves? How does a dead faith save?

 

[elected4ever]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin

Ok. Progress. Now that you've acknowledged that faith by itself is dead (without works), would you explain to me how a you can say with a clear conscience that faith "only" saves? How does a dead faith save?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is quite evedent that you do not understand faith. If you understood faith then you would see that no one is talking about a dead faith. Just you. Is your faith dead, Keven?

 

[HopeofGlory]

Evangelion,


You said:
H.O.G. -

Reply:
Hope of glory is a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ in us. Your abreviation has been used in this thread to mock His title as our hope of glory. I am sure you are aware of this and in His name I ask that you to discontinue using it.

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col. 1:27 (KJV)

I asked:
Explain to us how the new testament is not dependent
on the shedding of blood.

You said:
Very simple. It's called "grace." After all, when's the last time you offered a sacrifice to God, eh?

Very simple?!!!! The new testament is the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins and without it there is no grace.

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom. 3:24 (KJV)
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)


Your response is childish and it displays a lack of spiritual understanding on your part. All your learning is worthless without knowledge and your quippy remarks are foolishness.
His shed blood for remission is the new testament and it is the testimony of all members of His body.

I asked:
How does one receive remission without the shed blood of Christ?

You responded:
One doesn't.

My reply:
Right, all do that have faith. Obviously you haven't.

You said:
Christ's sacrifice (which marked the zenith of the Old Covenant) covers sin for all time. He was sacrificed while the Old Covenant was still in effect - and the power of his sacrifice is everlasting.

My reply:
Now the cat ties to claw his way out of the bag.

You said:
Remember, Christ doesn't have to be sacrificed every time a new Christian is "born again." Instead, that one sacrifice (offered in Israel, more than 1900 years ago) covers the sins of all those who (a) believe in its power to save, and (b) obey Christ's commandments.

That's the whole point.

My reply:
The obedience of your flesh will profit you nothing.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the ""flesh profiteth nothing"": the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)


If you add your obedience for salvation then you have voided the "free" gift.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Rom. 4:4 (KJV)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom. 4:5 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[Kevin]

dan37,

It is quite evedent that you do not understand faith. If you understood faith then you would see that no one is talking about a dead faith. Just you. Is your faith dead, Keven?

What is evident is that you don't know what you're talking about. I understand faith perfectly. Yes people are talking about a dead faith because there are people on this board who believe that faith "only" saves, even though James clearly identified that faith only is dead. Anybody who believes that faith "only" saves preaches that a dead faith saves. Simple as that. I'M the one who is saying that the faith that saves is not a faith without works... WHICH IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THE ENTIRE TIME.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Evangelion,

I asked:
This you must prove! Where is the scripture that tells us the eunuch knew that Christ died for his sins?

You asked:
Ever read the book of Acts?

Reply:
Many times. Do you understand, believe, and accept the book of acts in that it applies directly to you as it did to Israel at Pentecost?

Scripture you provided as proof text:
Acts 8:26-38.
And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Isaiah the prophet.
Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaiah, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
The place of the Scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same Scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

My response:
Scripture can be quoted but "faith" in it is required to recieve its blessings. The testimony given by the eunuch was..."I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". Devils believe this much!

Peter said:
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69 (KJV)

Jesus answered:
Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? John 6:70 (KJV)

The right testimony is everything!

You said:
The eunuch was reading Isaiah 53. He knew that it was talking about an innocent man who had suffered unjustly, but he didn't know who the man was. So he asked Philip to explain Isaiah 53 - which Philip did. Subsequently, the eunuch was baptised.

Reply:
Did you notice there is no mention of water baptism in Isaiah 53.
Also, there is no mention of "faith" and don't forget we are saved by grace "through" faith.

Faith in what?
In works?
No!

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)

How do we recieve remission of sins?

Faith in His shed blood!

Is Acts 2:38 the gospel of our salvation?

No because it is void of the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins as is the preaching of apostles at Pentecost.

In Christ
Craig

 

[elected4ever]

What is evident is that you don't know what you're talking about. I understand faith perfectly. Yes people are talking about a dead faith because there are people on this board who believe that faith "only" saves, even though James clearly identified that faith only is dead. Anybody who believes that faith "only" saves preaches that a dead faith saves. Simple as that. I'M the one who is saying that the faith that saves is not a faith without works... WHICH IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THE ENTIRE TIME.

What James is talking about is an oximoron. There is no such thing as a faith without works. I will guarantee you that the things you do are warrented by your faith or by what you believe. The question at issue is not weather we have faith but upon what faith do you act. To say that someone has no faith just because they have a difference of openion on a particular subject is not the same as haveing no faith. You are the one void of understanding.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Access to grace is by faith in the shed blood of Christ.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

Faith is required not obedience to water baptism which is a "work" of the flesh. If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore no more “work” is required for salvation. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required and are still in their sins.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

We are justified by His blood of the "new" testament and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God (John 5:36) and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

The contrast is clearly defined when compared with...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him (Acts 5:32). It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free". Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)

Note the contrast! It says baptized "into Jesus" as compared to "into water". How are we to get into Jesus?..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) (KJV)...and it is the "one" baptism (Eph. 4:5) for us today.

Our baptism is an operation of God not man!

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig