The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

HopeofGlory

New member
Apollos

"And please explain from scripture how one "enters" Jesus or through Jesus. What saith the scriptures on how to "enter" ???"

For by one ""Spirit"" are we all ""baptized into"" one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

IN CHRIST
CRAIG
 

carri

New member
Freak--

Now we are to be baptized to symbolize the work Christ has already done. A reading of Acts proves this.
I will not argue this point, but I will say, that a reading of Acts does not prove that baptism isn't necessary for salvation.

Yes, it is speculation that Philip and the eunuch were alone--but have you any evidence to the contrary? It sure looks like they were alone from what is said.

Are you ever going to explain Heb 5:9?

Carri
 

carri

New member
C.Moore--

Then why don`t we close our eyes to baptism and Just leave the salvation deliverance to Jesus, and nobody can add.
Seems to me you already have. :rolleyes:

Yes, the salvation deliverance has been left to Jesus--he's the author of salvation, after all--at least to those who obey him.(Heb 5:9) It's just too bad that His way of salvation calls for obedience and yours doesn't. Since your blood hasn't covered my sins, I think I'll go with His way, not yours. ;)

Carri
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Carri,

Thats too funny.

Since Jesus raised Paul, it becomes Jesus' way. Sorry to disappoint you, but you needed that newsflash!

God Bless
 

Edgar Caiña

New member
Freak

Freak

Originally posted by Freak
Edgar, A reading of Acts of the Apostles proves my point.

Hi Freak,
Im sorry, man! I've read the Acts of the Apostles and I didnt see in it that "Jesus commanded these things not for salvation but rather for a witness." Could you give me a direct biblical referrence to your claim? I would really appreciate that. :cool:
 

JustAChristian

New member
You Are Only Repeating What You Have Heard!

You Are Only Repeating What You Have Heard!

Originally posted by Freak
Carri-

Please do not misunderstand us.

We believe believers should be water baptized but not for salvation. Salvation is by faith (see Romans 5:1 & Ephesians 2:8-9) in Jesus Christ. Water baptism is a symbol as the Communion is a symbol. We believe Jesus commanded these things not for salvation but rather for a witness.

Jesus even said to be saved all one needed to do was enter through Him (see John 10:9).

Tell me what John 10:9 tells you.

Freak,

You use a team that you can not defend. You are only repeating what you have heard. Carri bring out a very good point when she asked who did the Etheopian Eunuch witness to? There was him, Philip and maybe a chariot driver. Philip didn't witness, and the driver would have been a disinterested party. Besides, we are not told to witness to anything. We are told to preach the gospel. We can not witness, because we were not there to observe originally. "Witness" has become a distorted term that hipes certain people up, but we have no scriptural basis to practice.

You don't seem to want to grasp that we hope believe the effects of immersion for the remission of sin do so by faith. We believe. We have great respect for Romans 5:1 and Ephesians 2:8-9. Without faith it is immpossible to please God... (Hebrews 11:6). We believe the importance of entering through Christ. We believe that being baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:26-27) pleases God and will prompt Him to add us to the church (Acts 2:47). What do you have for you addition to the church? I have given you a scriptural trail for my reasoning. Show us how you are added to the church if you are not immersed into Christ.

John 10:9
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus is the author of salvation (Heb. 5:8-9), and has provided a means of entrance into salvation. Everyone has the right to enter. We can not rush the gate, we can not climb over the fence. We must enter in an "orderly fashion". Sheep enter the sheepfold in an orderly fashion and so must we. An orderly fashion prompts a system of rules. We must hear the gospel, believe Christ is Gods's Son, repent of sins, confess him before man, and be immersed for remission of sins. Only then will he allow entrance (Acts 2:47).

JustAChristian
 

carri

New member
drbrumley--

Maybe you didn't realize that Paul's way is Christ's way? But their way is definately not c.moore's way! Just because Paul doesn't reitterate everything Christ and the other apostles taught in his letters to the churches, doesn't mean he taught something different. I don't see where he ever says that obedience is not necessary for salvation. If he did, then he would be contradicting Christ and the other apostles, so that just doesn't work. You can't just focus on what one apostle wrote and build your faith on that, ignoring all the rest.

What does Heb 5:9 mean? "...and once made perfect, he became of source of eternal salvation for all who obey him..." I can't get anyone to answer this, except to say that to obey really means to love him and have faith in him, not do as he commands. Which is kinda funny, because Christ said, "if you love me, you will keep my commands" so either way, it works the same.

Carri
 

c.moore

New member
Originally posted by carri
C.Moore--

Seems to me you already have. :rolleyes:

Yes, the salvation deliverance has been left to Jesus--he's the author of salvation, after all--at least to those who obey him.(Heb 5:9) It's just too bad that His way of salvation calls for obedience and yours doesn't. Since your blood hasn't covered my sins, I think I'll go with His way, not yours. ;)

Carri



Carri
Sence you use the obedience bible scriptures to obey unto your salvation, do you obey because it is an order, or command,
or do you obey because you love the Lord????:confused:

I obey because of the first love to Jesus only, and not to try to prove my obedience to qualify, salvation like it looks like you are working for in your obeying.

Do you obey according to Heb5:9 like A soldier does in the marines, or do you obey because you are A daughter, and Jesus is your loving father, and you obey because the father is in you, and the Father know how to obey???????

If you do obey< like a soldier , then what rank do you think you are at,Captain??????:D :rolleyes:

1Jo:4:12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo:4:13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Because we have His Spirit in us we can obey,and God love is perfect in us

Carri you talk alot about obeying , but please get into the love that makes us perfect before God.
remember that God is love.

We need more from jesus and less from us .

I wish you would get the revelation of IT IS FINISHED .

I ask you how people are saved in your group and I still couldn`t get an answer, I guess there is no testimonys in your group.
Well" let me ask how many has found thier first love in Christ???


peace
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Carri,

Paul's "My Gospel" is mentioned because it stands in contrast in the Roman epistle to the gospel of God which God promised before by His prophets.

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith-- Romans 16:25-26

The prophets in this passage are manifestly not Old Testament prophets, for Paul states that this message was kept secret since the world began and only now (in Paul's lifetime) has it been made manifest. In the exegsis of this passage it may be questioned whether Paul is speaking of two different things, "my gospel," and "the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery," or whether the word "and" has the sense of "even" as the Greek kai often has; in which case the passage would read: "according to my gospel, even the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery." In either case Paul's preaching was an advance on the gospel of God, for he preached not only that but the truth of the mystery.

George Williams states in The Student's Commentary 1949

"My Gospel" (v. 25), i.e., the glad tidings concerning the secret revealed to him.

"The preaching of Jesus Christ," i.e., salvation for all nations through Him on the principle of faith-obedience (as opposed to works) as commanded by the everlasting God. So Paul had a double ministry, that of the Gospel, and that of "My Gospel" i.e., the Gospel of the Mystery.

Thus the epistle begins with the Gospel, always revealed, never hidden, and closes with Paul's Gospel, always hidden, never revealed. This mystery, i.e., secret, is the theme of the epistle to the Ephesians.

O'Hair has this comment on Paul's "my gospel":
All of the apostles were preaching 1 Corinthians 15:1 to 4. Paul was not referring to that. When Paul wrote Timothy to be a partaker of the afflictions of the Gospel, he was not referring to "the gospel of the Kingdom," or merely to the Gospel of salvation of Ephesians 1:13. No, Paul was referring to the Divine truth designated "the mystery." This truth was not revealed by Christ to the twelve apostles. What they knew of the mystery they first learned from Paul."

People who do not recognize the dispensational principle in Scripture see nothing distinctive about Paul's gospel. They are forced to say that the mystery is simply the fact that God would one day save Gentiles as well as Jews, but surely there is nothing hidden or secret about this fact, for the Old Testament is full of predictions about Gentile salvation. And they are forced into another contradiction of saying that the Scriptures of the Old Testament prophets make manifest the truth that was hidden from them.

Paul uses this expression in only two other places, Romans 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel
and
2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,

His expression in Ephesians 6:19, "the mystery of the gospel," is apparently equivalent to his "my gospel," as it includes not only salvation but salvation into the heavenly blessings of the Body of Christ.

God Bless

A repost of mine!
 

agape

New member
Originally posted by HopeofGlory
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35 (KJV)
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all) Acts 10:36 (KJV)
Acts 10:33-35: "...Now therefore are we all here present before God. (34) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. (35) But in every nation he that feareth [respects] him [God], and worketh righteousness, is accepted." Peter learned by revelation and experience that God wanted His Word to be taken to the "nations. Lets read further, remaining within the context of Peter being shown by God that He is not a respecter of people or nations...and which leads to spirit baptism of Cornelius and his household.

Acts 10:36-41
The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel was the message of Christ who brought peace between God and man. Jesus is Lord of all which includes "all nations."

(37) That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

That word (message of Christ) was published throughout all Judaea beginning from Galilee with the baptism of John. Jesus' ministry began after he was baptized by John.

(38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Jesus Christ's ministry, which God had anointed with the Holy Ghost, empowered him to do good and to heal all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

(39) And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

They, the apostles, were witnesses of the accomplishments of Jesus Christ which they, those who slew and hanged him on a tree.

(40) Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

(41) Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

They killed Jesus, but God raised him up from the dead and showed him openly. These verses speak of Jesus Christ, his ministry and his resurrection. The emphasis is placed on Christ, not on John the Baptist.

Acts 10:42-48:
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.

(43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

As stated in Acts 11:16-18 after he tells those in Jerusalem how while he "spake these word, the Holy Ghost fell on them which heard the word."

[Acts 11:16--"Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."

45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter

Peter answered because they were astonished, awe-struck that on the Gentiles "also" was pour out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Who said anything about forbidding "water" or "water baptism?" There is no water even mentioned until verse 47?! What is Peter responding to? He is responding to the circumcised who believed being astounded or baffled concerning the Gentiles being baptized in the holy spirit.

?Acts 11:17,18--Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? (18) When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

Peter adds to his recollection in Acts 11, which was left out in Acts 10, "what was I, that I could that I could withstand God?" Thus, "Can any man forbid water" is referring to "spiritual water," which is to be baptized in holy spirit. There is no mention of Peter baptizing them with John's baptism of water in both Acts 10 and 11.

(48) And [even] he commanded [arranged-toward] them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

I had posted earlier on that Peter was about to baptize them in water and then he remembered what Jesus said concerning being baptized with holy spirit and did not carry it out.

However, as I continue to study this chapter, I came to realize that "water" is also used "figurately, as "living" or "spiritual" water. In light of this and in putting chapter 10 together with chapter 11, where more information is given concerning the Gentiles, there is every indication to consider that the "water" used in verse 47 of Acts 10 is referring to "spiritual water," and not the "physical element of water." Cornelius and his household had already been baptized with holy spirit (proven by their speaking with tongues). They were already saved and born again. What could water baptism possibly add to the spiritual baptism? Did the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, his death, resurrection and ascension fall short of salvation that he needed assistance with H20 to make salavation complete? There is no logic in believing water is still necessary. Makes no sense at all. The whole idea of still needing to be water baptized even after one is born again is all part of a man-made doctrine. If it were necessary, it would have been very clearly stated throughout the Pauline Epistles, of which it is definetly not, especially when it came to the Gentiles.

In John, chapter 4, Jesus is talking with the woman at the well. He compares the physical element of water, which leaves one only to thirst again...never satisfied...with the "living" water, which is spiritual water, holy spirit-life and able to satisfy the soul seeking the righteousness of God. This is what Jesus Christ accomplished for us through his death and resurrection.

John 4:14--"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

John 7:38 --"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

To summarize--Peter replied with what was needed to respond to the reaction of the circumcised who believed and were with him: why are you so bewildered? Surely none of you, nor I myself, have the ability or power to forbid the water (spiritual water which is holy spirit-life) to cause these Gentiles to not be baptized in holy spirit? Are we going to hinder the purposes of God from the Gentiles whom we can hear speaking with tongues which is proof that they have received the same holy spirit life and they now are able to manifest the promise of the Father which the Lord Jesus Christ foretold about, are we? No, of course we are not able to hinder God's will by means of the Lord Jesus Christ! God has truly spiritually cleansed these Gentiles who are now the children of God.

Peter, according to chapters 10 and 11, never water baptized the Gentiles. These chapters do show that God is not a respecter of people (nations) and all who believe in Christ are saved, born again of God's spirit and have eternal life.

Water baptism does not have the ability to add more to the absolute completeness of our being filled with the fullness of the gift of holy spirit and receiving eternal life, which is administered to us by Jesus Christ on behalf of God. :)
 

JustAChristian

New member
Many Will Never Hear and Obey The Gospel.

Many Will Never Hear and Obey The Gospel.

1Peter 4:17 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God, and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Peter mentions the significance of obeying the gospel of God. There will be some that will hear the gospel, but the impact of the gospel will fail to move them to obedience. This will be for several reasons. Some will fail to obey because of prior commitment. Others will fail to obey because of inconvenience. And still others will fail because of misunderstanding. In the parable of the soils, Jesus said, “Behold, a sower went forth to sow, and when sowed, some seeds fell by the wayside, and the fowls came and devoured them up.” (Mt. 13:3-4). There is that individual who will never receive the gospel. They are predisposed to another message. They are like the soil that will not receive seed. It may be that they have been inspired by a meaningful message, but one that challenges the message of God, the gospel. They are so moved to the distant message, the simplicity of the gospel can not impress them. Such are they who believe and follow the New Age message or the modern denominational message with it’s masterful delivery. Some of these messages are those that teach Jesus saves by faith only, and that Paul delivered a different message than the other apostles. Such messages are doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:1), and will harden the heart to the pattern of salvation appointed by Christ (Romans 1:16). Soon the message of salvation passes them by, and they will be eternally lost. Such is the case of King Agrippa. One day Paul preached the gospel of salvation to him. In spite of its great promises of deliverance from sins, Agrippa would not listen and seemingly mimics the effort of Paul saying, “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.” (Acts 26:28). So are they whose hearts can not be softened to receive the saving message. They will never obey the gospel.

There are others that hear and obey the gospel but will never be saved eternally. Jesus continued his lesson saying, “...Some fell upon stony places, where they had no deepness of earth, and when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away” (Mt. 13:5-6). The gospel will lead many to obedience and salvation. They will be impressed with the message and complete their obedience in baptism, but rising to walk in newness of life will be challenging. Maybe it will be because of problems in their life that are hard to overcome; drinking, gambling, or possessions . These stay close at hand and soon the life of Christ is hard to counteract, and soon they try to correlate their sinful life with Christ but fail and fall away. They can not be eternally saved. Such was that of Ananias and Sapphira. They heard the gospel and obeyed but possessions were more important than living in Christ. When they sold some property, they gave a portion of the sale and declared they had given it all. They clung to a portion of the proceeds and lies to the apostles of the return. By inspiration, Peter and the others knew the lie and told Ananias and his wife separately that, by lying to the Holy Spirit, they had lied not to man but to God. (Acts 5: 4). They were not given opportunity to repent, but their lives were taken from them and they are lost eternally. They did not obey the gospel by walking justly in their new life.

Again Jesus said, “And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprung up and choked them” (vs. 7). There are those who hear and obey the gospel, but the cares of this world outweigh the value of the Christian life. He taught of those who heard the gospel and followed for awhile, “...from that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him (John 6:66). Paul spoke of Demas saying, “For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica.” (2 Tim. 4:10). If there is no repentance, they can not be saved eternally.

We are thankful to know that many have heard the gospel and have obeyed it. They lived successful lives as Christians and their works do follow them today. They have brought forth, “some thirty, some sixty and some a hundredfold. The gospel of salvation is just a powerful today as it was in the first century when many obeyed and remained committed unto death. May the grace of God continue in our lives in order that the gospel can continue for many years and countless thousands will hear it and believe unto salvation. May we not have to see countless millions failing to hear and believe, know the judgement of God to come. Amen.

JustAChristian
 
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drbrumley

Well-known member
Some Christians today, who ascribe to the "Covenant Theology" point of view, also believe water baptism is a New Testament ordinance which replaced the Old Testament sign of circumcision Again, though, there is not one shred of scripture anywhere that would even suggest such an idea. Instead, this whole theory is proved to be false by the fact that only males were circumcised under the Old Testament. The churches which practice water baptism today, however, baptize both men and women alike. Consequently, if water baptism is a replacement for circumcision, then these churches have no business baptizing their female converts. Another reason water baptism could not have replaced circumcision is because Peter and the other apostles continued to separate themselves from uncircumcised Gentiles (who were considered to be unclean) even as late as Acts chapter 10, long after the Lord's resurrection.
 
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drbrumley

Well-known member
Important note, for those who may disagree with Dispensational Theology:


Please realize that we do not believe Covenant Theologians are "heretics"; nor is it proper for them to refer to us as such. There are five fundamentals of the faith which are essential for Christianity, and upon which we both agree:

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Heb. 1:8-9), the Creator God Himself (Col. 1:16; compare Gen. 1:1); Who "laid the foundation of the earth" (Heb. 1:10-12; compare Psalms 102:24-27).

2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Mt. 1:23; Luke 1:27).

3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Ro. 3:25; Ro. 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Heb. :12-14).

4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Cor. 15:14-15).

5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Ro. 15:4; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20). Please note: this is NOT a reference to the "King James Only" debate; rather, this is a reference to people who claim to have revelations apart from the scriptures.

And those who disagree with any of the above doctrines are not Christians at all. Rather, they are the true heretics.

So among ourselves, we may vigorously debate other items, such as the merit of baptism; the consequences of Dispensationalism vs. Covenant Theology; the validity of various Bible translations; the authority of the Presbytery; etc. Such disagreements are perfectly acceptable within the confines of Christianity, because our salvation does not hinge upon those doctrines.

But if our critics deny even one of the five fundamentals mentioned above, they have departed from the faith, "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1). By denying the above scriptural doctrines, they have heaped to themselves "teachers, having itching ears" (2 Tim. 4:3); thereby even "denying the Lord that bought them" (2 Pet. 2:1). These are the true heretics, who are preaching "another Jesus", according to 2 Cor. 11:4 -

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

And later in this same chapter, Paul refers to these people as the ministers of Satan, in 2 Cor. 11:13-15 -

13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15: Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So, please - if you take offense to our Dispensational Theology, don't think that we are condemning you as unbelievers or heretics. Nothing could be further from the truth. As long as you hold to the five fundamentals of the faith, you may join the debate. And together, we shall reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11).
 

agape

New member
HopeofGlory,

I said:
In this record, Philip, (a born-again believer), baptized the eunuch with water at the time of the eunuch's acceptance of Christ. Why would Philip baptize the eunuch with water when water baptism was totally unnecessary for salvation? Simply because the eunuch asked him to!

Your Reply:
Phillip water baptized the eunuch becaused he believed the gospel as John the Baptist preached it, as did Peter.

Answer:
Did Philip preach John the baptist?...or...Christ?

Acts 8:31,32:
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

(32) The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35 (KJV)
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all) Acts 10:36 (KJV)
Acts 10:33-35: "...Now therefore are we all here present before God. (34) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. (35) But in every nation he that feareth [respects] him [God], and worketh righteousness, is accepted." Peter learned by revelation and experience that God wanted His Word to be taken to the "nations" of the world. To respect God is to recognize His Word, which is His will. To work righteousness is to believe and do the will of God. God's will was for all to hear the Word, to be saved and born again of His Spirit.

We certainly cannot ignore the words spoken by Jesus Christ himself.

Acts 1:5 "For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

And Peter...

Acts 11:16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
What scriptures can you offer as proof that Phillip was a "born again believer? What is it that we must believe to be born again?
The ones that show Philip teaching and expounding the scriptures concerning Christ to the eunuch. To get born again, see Romans 10:9&10. "Thou shalt be saved"...made whole and complete. Once we are born again of God's Spirit, we are men and women of body, soul AND spirit...not just body and soul as it was before the new birth.
Did Peter believe that works of righteousness were required? I believe he did and it is evident he commanded the Gentile Cornelius to be water baptized.
No, Peter did not believe that works of righteousness were required. Show me please where it states so in the scriptures that Peter believed this. I can't find any and therefore it is not evident that Peter commanded Cornelius and his household to be water baptized. Peter understood that salvation came by grace and not by works.

Agape said:
Philip knew the critical issue was the eunuch's acceptance of Jesus Christ. Having that assurance from him, Philip knew the eunuch was born again, baptized with the holy spirit. He then gladly water baptized him for the sole reason that the eunuch requested him to.
Exactly what did the eunuch say that gave Phillip this assurance?
It's obvious that Philip taught the eunuch all that Jesus did and accomplished as the Messiah for the transgression of sin. It does not state anywhere that the eunuch did not believe. Also, we need to remember that God brought Philip to the eunuch by way of His angel, a messenger. I doubt He would have done so if He knew the eunuch would just waste his time.

Verse 36--And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

The eunuch, after being taught by Philip the gospel of the good news of salvation through Christ, saw the water and knowing that John had baptized with water was asking Philip if there would be anything to hinder him from being water baptized. If he had to ask Philip this question in the first place, it is obvious that Philip did NOT teach him that he had to be water baptized.

He asked Philip if there would be anything to prevent him...Philip did not tell him to get water baptized. However, I come to find out there is no answer to this question by Philip recorded in the oldest Greek texts [verse 37 was added to some translations]

The eunuch had freedom of will. If the eunuch desired to be water baptized, even though Philip by this time would have taught him concerning the day of Pentecost and the true current baptism in holy spirit, then that was his own decision.

I said:
It is not a sin to be baptized with water. It is simply not necessary.

Your reply: Is it a sin to believe water baptism is for remission of sins?

No, because John the Baptist taught that it "was" for the remission of sins. However, it was temporary in that it represented the greater and true spiritual baptism to come through Christ. I believe that teaching one must also be baptized with water in order to be truly saved is wrong because it is a false teaching. It is not found in the scriptures. Also, it takes away from the full and complete salvation that only Jesus Christ could accomplish for mankind, through the shedding of his pure sinless blood. Water baptism could not accomplish this and that is why we needed Jesus Christ as our only means for redemption and salvation.

Baptism with water--a person has water put on him or is immersed with physical water for a certain period of time, and then the person comes out from the water and dries off so that he no longer has physical water on him anymore!

Baptism in holy spirit--a person is immersed or surrounded in holy spirit-life and does NOT come out from it because it is the seed of God Himself given to that person by means of the Lord Jesus Christ. The gift of holy spirit cannot "dry-off" nor can it be re-done at some later '"revival" because once received it remains received!
 

carri

New member
drbrumbley--

So, please - if you take offense to our Dispensational Theology, don't think that we are condemning you as unbelievers or heretics. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Did you read the title to this thread? You personally may not be condemning us, but at least one of the dispensationalist is!

You have actually just made it clear to me why none of us ever get anywhere here on this debate. We seem to fall into one of two camps. We either base our faith off of the entire NT or just what Paul said. And as long as that is the case, the discussion will never get anywhere--which explains why it has been going on as long as it has, with nothing new ever being added, just a rehashing and reposting of the same old arguments over and over and over...now I think I'm done here.

Carri
 

HopeofGlory

New member
Tevilah ("immersion” in Hebrew) is recited during the Jewish mikveh ritual. The ritual immersion commanded in Mosaic law form the basis for the Judaic mikveh laws. Ancient sages who formulated these rules agreed that the purpose of mikveh was spiritual rather than physical cleansing. They taught that the mikveh cleanses the unclean yet it was only a shadow of the spiritual cleansing performed by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). The roots of baptism rest deeply and permanently within Jewish tradition. Baptism in the gospels and mikveh tradition teach the ritual has the power to cleanse the hearts of men.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mark 7:7 (KJV)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8 (KJV)

In the old testament we read that before giving the Law on Mount Sinai, God commanded the people to wash as an act of purification (Exodus 19:11). The Mosaic law records the washing of Aaron (Lev. 8:6) and his sons when they were ordained as priests to minister in the holy tabernacle. God commanded Aaron (Lev. 16:4) to wash himself before he ministered in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement. This priestly cleansing by immersion prepared Israel as a nation for the priesthood during the ministry of John the Baptist.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Ex. 19:5)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel (Ex. 19:6).

John was that voice crying in the wilderness!

For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (Matt. 3:3).

The Hebrew word mikveh means "a collection or gathering together," in this context it refers to a gathering of the nations at Pentecost for the purpose of ritual cleansing. The earliest Biblical uses of the word "mikveh" occur in I Kings 7:23 and in 11 Chronicles 4:2 describing the huge, circular "Sea of Solomon," constructed along with the first Temple for the priests to carry out their ceremonial washing.

The only Biblical requirement for entrance into the covenant was circumcision, baptism by tradition was added. No one knows exactly when the requirements were changed to include baptism, but it was before the time of Jesus placing it within the period of the Mosaic law.

Mikveh was a vital part of Jewish life well before the time of John the Baptist. One finds Mikvehs in medieval Spain, in ancient Italy and in desert outpost of Masada. The way archaeologists determine whether or not a dig is Jewish is the presence of a Mikveh. This is recorded in halacha (Jewish law) which states that before the synagogue is built, a Mikveh must be established.

Maimonides (1135-1204), a Jewish codifier of the Torah had this to say concerning converts to Judaism:

"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: 'And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings' (Exodus 24:5)...When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant...He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice...And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised and be baptized; and when the Temple shall be built, they are to bring a sacrifice...The gentile that is made a proselyte and the slave that is made free,
behold he is like a child new born."

Gentiles of today who convert to Judaism must undergo baptism in a mikveh ritual. The purpose of this ceremonial immersion is believed to grant spiritual cleansing, as Maimonides stated in his codification of the laws of mikveh. Peter reflected this came belief when he required the Gentile Cornelius to be baptized.

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts 10:47 (KJV)

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35 (KJV)
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) Acts 10:36 (KJV)

Using water to cleanse is an ancient Jewish tradition. When John the Baptist came on the scene he preached a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4) as did Peter (Acts 2:38) at Pentecost when the nations were gathered together. The Jews saw nothing pagan or wrong in John’s demands that people repent and be cleansed in the Jordan River."Baptist" or “baptizer“, comes from the Greek verb baptidzo, which has the same meaning as the Hebrew root taval: to wash by dipping or plunging in water. John's message was in keeping with what all the other Jewish prophets proclaimed. He preached God's judgment, warning that Israel must repent and be water baptized because of the coming of the Messiah was at hand. The self-righteous may have disagreed but they had no problem with John's method of cleansing. If it had been anything other than their normal tradition the religious leaders would have had him stoned as a false prophet.
John baptized Jesus and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1 :29). Jesus was perfect and sinless, His baptism prepared Him as both Priest and Sacrifice for Israel. In the days Christ walked this earth the Mosaic law was still in effect, those who repented and were cleansed by John in the river still brought animal sacrifices to the Temple to receive God's forgiveness. But after Christ gave his life as an atonement for sin, removing the law (Col. 2:14), baptism became a Spiritual operation of God that places us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).


The New Covenant or New Testament requires faith in the blood of Christ for remission (Rom. 3:25) as the eternal means for spiritual cleansing. Spiritual baptism is the washing away of sin (Titus 3:5) and uncleanness by the blood of Christ, and the giving of new life by God's Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13).The New Testament scriptures teach that by faith we are plunged or buried into his atoning death (I Cor. 12:13), so that God might raise us even as Christ himself rose from the dead.

Maimonides listed the three requirements for Judaism as circumcision, baptism and sacrifice, in that order. Maimonides waived the requirement of sacrifice until the Temple should be rebuilt yet failed to realize that God never waived that requirement. Indeed, that is why God sent the Messiah before the Temple was destroyed, so that all who believed in him would not be left without an acceptable sacrifice for sin. Modern Christianity confuses the biblical order, the sacrifice comes first then water baptism as a symbol of their faith. This confusion is based on their misunderstanding of the purpose and place water baptism had in the roots of Judaism. The scriptures do not teach water baptism as symbolic of what be believe but they reveal it as a cleansing ritual under the Mosaic law to prepare for the Sacrifice. Because of Christ's sacrifice, believers are cleansed spiritually and forgiven of their sin. Paul described it this way in his New Testament letter to the Gentile believers:

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col. 2:9)
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Col. 2:10)
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col. 2:11)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)

Before Christ died one had to be circumcised and baptized to be brought under God's covenant, the New Testament is inward and visible only to God. By his Spirit, he inscribes his law upon the hearts of all those who commit themselves to him through faith in Jesus’ sacrifice (Jeremiah 31:33). The Scriptures teach that Jews and Gentiles by faith receive circumcision of the heart (Col. 2:11) and Spiritual cleaning (Titus 3:5) the moment they accept the Sacrifice of God. Therefore the fulfillment of the Mosaic law is found in the power of the cross (Col. 1:19-20) and not by works of righteousness. Paul by revelation (Gal 1:12) said:

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Titus 3:6)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7).


In Christ
Craig
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Carri,

Well, I can't speak for Freak. I know nothing about him except diplomacy is not his strongpoint. I'm not even sure if he is a dispensationalist or not. Alot of what he says is correct and some isnt. But WE all have this problem.

God Bless!
 

agape

New member
Originally posted by HopeofGlory

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Titus 3:6)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7)
I'm glad you finally saw the light Craig. :) The Apostle Paul understood this as well.

The word “regeneration” literally means “birth anew” or “new birth.” The washing of the new birth is the inward washing of the baptism of the holy spirit. This replaces the outward symbolic washing of baptism with water.

Notice verse 4 says “God our Saviour” and verse six, “Jesus Christ our Saviour.” God the Father is the Author, the originator of our salvation. His son, Jesus Christ was the agent by which He accomplished it. God shed the washing of regeneration and renewing of the holy spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ.
 

Evangelion

New member
drbrumley -

Some Christians today, who ascribe to the "Covenant Theology" point of view, also believe water baptism is a New Testament ordinance which replaced the Old Testament sign of circumcision

I know they do. I have actually debated one of them myself. They're *ahem* not very good with their Bibles.

Again, though, there is not one shred of scripture anywhere that would even suggest such an idea.

Agreed.

Instead, this whole theory is proved to be false by the fact that only males were circumcised under the Old Testament.

That's the same argument I used. :up: (Well, part of it, anyway.)

The churches which practice water baptism today, however, baptize both men and women alike.

Correct. We're the ones who take Jesus seriously. ;)

Consequently, if water baptism is a replacement for circumcision, then these churches have no business baptizing their female converts.

Exactly! :D

Another reason water baptism could not have replaced circumcision is because Peter and the other apostles continued to separate themselves from uncircumcised Gentiles (who were considered to be unclean) even as late as Acts chapter 10, long after the Lord's resurrection.

That's another good one.

Now, having successfully rebutted a position which I myself (and probably several others on this thread) reject, all you have to do is prove that water baptism is no longer binding on believers.

:)
 
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