The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
JustAChristian,

Peter preached to Cornelius,saying,"And He commanded us to preach unto the people,and to testify that it is He Who was ordained of God to be the Judge of living and the dead.To give all the prophets witness,that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins"(Acts10:43).

At that time Cornelius must have "believed in Him",because at that time the Holy Spirit fell on him.

And since he believed "in Him",then he must also have received "remission of sins" at that time,else the Holy Spirit would not fall on him while he remained in this sin.

So BEFORE he was baptized in water it is clear that he had believed in Him and had had his sins remitted.

And you say that he was not saved at that point?He can believe in Him and have this sins remitted,but not yet be saved?

In His grace,--Jerry
 

JustAChristian

New member
Living on blind faith!

Living on blind faith!

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

Peter preached to Cornelius,saying,"And He commanded us to preach unto the people,and to testify that it is He Who was ordained of God to be the Judge of living and the dead.To give all the prophets witness,that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins"(Acts10:43).

At that time Cornelius must have "believed in Him",because at that time the Holy Spirit fell on him.

And since he believed "in Him",then he must also have received "remission of sins" at that time,else the Holy Spirit would not fall on him while he remained in this sin.

So BEFORE he was baptized in water it is clear that he had believed in Him and had had his sins remitted.

And you say that he was not saved at that point?He can believe in Him and have this sins remitted,but not yet be saved?

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry!!!

Your and your conclusions are inconsistant with scripture. The angel to Cornelius that someone would tell him what he must do. Peter began to preach the gospel, but until he told Cornelius to be baptized, he had not told him anything to do. There is a lot about the gospel that is not in the form of commandments. This is what Peter was preaching at the time the Spirit fell. Only when he told Cornelius to be baptized did he tell him something to do. We only have the written word. We can not speculate and be pleasing with God. Faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17). If we are to have faith in something we must hear it or read it or it must be so strongly inferred that it can not be denied, such as in the case of Cornelius, it is not said that he confessed Jesus as Lord, but since Jesus said that this is to be done (Matthew 10:32-33) it is inferred that Cornelius confessed the Lord as the Son of God just like the Ethopian Eunuch of Acts 8. The Samafritans did not know of the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came down to their city (Acts 8:14-17), yet they were saved. The disciples at Ephesus did not know of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1=6), and the fact goes on. Many did not experience an association with the Holy Spirit yet they were saved from their sin because they were baptized for the remission of sins. Jerry, you need this teaching and you need to believe and obey it.

JustAChristian
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
JustACHristian,

It is you that is overlooking a very important fact.

You say that until he told Cornelius to be baptized,he had not told him anything to do."

But Peter told him that in order to receive remission of sins,it is necessary to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And He commanded us to preach unto the people...that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins"(Acts10:43).

Cornelius was told that in order to receive remission of sins he must "believe",and "believing" is doing something.

And this is in harmony with the words of Paul to the Philippian jailer.When the jailer asked Paul what he must do to be saved,Paul said:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved,and thy house"(Acts16:31).

So they heard the gosoel,and they were saved when they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".It is not until later,after washing their stripes,that they were even baptized with water.

Notice that when the jailer asked what he should do to be saved,Paul made no mention of submitting to a rite of "water baptism".If you are correct that a baptism in water is necessary for salvation,don´t you think that Paul or Silas would have said so?

The jailer was told to do the same thing that Cornelius was told to do--"BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ".

And as soon as Cornelius "believed" on the Lord Jesus,the Spirit fell on him.At that time he received the remission of sins.And all that without being baptized in water.

Are you still willing to argue that while Cornelius had believed in Him,had received remission of sins,and the Holy Spirit had fallen on him,he remained unsaved?

In His grace,--Jerry
 

revhleonard

New member
Re: Re: Re: Word Whereby They were saved.

Re: Re: Re: Word Whereby They were saved.

Originally posted by JustAChristian


Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:22-23).

Purification of the soul comes through the word of God. When one does what God has commanded, God extends his grace (..by grace are you saved...through faith...) Unless one expresses one's self by an acting faith God does not extend Grace. Find one case where grace was extended without an exercise of faith. We are baptized into Christ because we exercise our faith in his word. Thus, I am cleaned of sin (Acts 22:16) because I did arise and was baptized in order to have my sins washed away. God extended his grace to me in cleansing. I don't earn grace, because God has set the bounds of grace. when I do what he wants me to do, he reciprocates with salvation.

How can you explain the statement that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, if you are saved by the Holy Spirit?

Work on that awhile revhleonard .

JustAChristian

Worked on it, chewed on it.
We still are not saved by baptism.

The Gospel is the power that God uses to save us, unfortunately that does not prevent us from making a mess of it.
Any more suggestions????
 

JustAChristian

New member
Believing In Jesus

Believing In Jesus

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustACHristian,

It is you that is overlooking a very important fact.

You say that until he told Cornelius to be baptized,he had not told him anything to do."

But Peter told him that in order to receive remission of sins,it is necessary to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And He commanded us to preach unto the people...that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins"(Acts10:43).

Cornelius was told that in order to receive remission of sins he must "believe",and "believing" is doing something.

And this is in harmony with the words of Paul to the Philippian jailer.When the jailer asked Paul what he must do to be saved,Paul said:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved,and thy house"(Acts16:31).

So they heard the gosoel,and they were saved when they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".It is not until later,after washing their stripes,that they were even baptized with water.

Notice that when the jailer asked what he should do to be saved,Paul made no mention of submitting to a rite of "water baptism".If you are correct that a baptism in water is necessary for salvation,don´t you think that Paul or Silas would have said so?

The jailer was told to do the same thing that Cornelius was told to do--"BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ".

And as soon as Cornelius "believed" on the Lord Jesus,the Spirit fell on him.At that time he received the remission of sins.And all that without being baptized in water.

Are you still willing to argue that while Cornelius had believed in Him,had received remission of sins,and the Holy Spirit had fallen on him,he remained unsaved?

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,

Again I say, You are forgetting the obvious. Believing in Jesus is not just having faith that he is. Jesus said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21. There are a lot of people have faith about Jesus but are not doing what he says. The purifing of souls comes by doing what Jesus has told us to do (1Peter 1:22). Jesus tell thes people with faith only that they will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. If Cornelius was saved by faith alone, why the preaching that he must be baptized? If he could have been saved without baptism, could he continue to live in his sins since faith only does not require the repentenance from sins?

John wrote this promise of Jesus: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." (John 5:24). The message of Jesus Christ, the gospel was to be preached and those dead in sins would hear it, unto obedience, and live. All of the gospel must be obeyed that requires obedience. Only then is there the promised spiritual life in Christ. We are baptized into Christ in the immersion of the body to be raised in new life -- borned again. When and only when this is done is the pattern of the rebirth followed. God is a spirit and they the worship him must worship ibn spirit and truth. Just as sure as this is a fact, it is equally true that we must in every way be obedient to his commands in Jesus Christ.


Think about what you have said. There is more to be found in the lesson than what you have concluded. Cornelius had to believe in the Lord, this is true, but he also had to repent, confess the Lord as the Son of God, and be baptized. God is no respecter of persons and does not have separate plans of salvation for individual people.

I'll have more to say later on the Philippian jailor. Have a good day.

JustAChristian
 
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revhleonard

New member
The only problem with this argument is that the Bible does not say what you need it to say. The Bible clearly tells us that we are justified by works of obedience before God. There is nothing here which might indicate that we are justified "before men." And in any case, the very idea of being "justified before men" is patently ridiculous.
Evangelion:
Is not justification for works imputed to us as righteousness. This occurs after salvation, it does not effect salvation, neither does it maintain salvation. Both sentences are questions.
 

Evangelion

New member
You're still looking at this the wrong way, Rev.

I do not believe that "salvation" is an instant event, remember? That is precisely why I cannot be accused of claiming that we are "saved" as soon as we are baptised.

If your counter-argument is going to have any effect on my argument, it will first need to address my soteriological position.

Please do not make assumptions about what I do and do not believe.
 

revhleonard

New member
Originally posted by Evangelion
You're still looking at this the wrong way, Rev.

I do not believe that "salvation" is an instant event, remember? That is precisely why I cannot be accused of claiming that we are "saved" as soon as we are baptised.

If your counter-argument is going to have any effect on my argument, it will first need to address my soteriological position.

Please do not make assumptions about what I do and do not believe.

Why so edgy and hostile (That's an assumption) in my post i stated that they were both questions. Since when do question assume an answer?

If you do not want to answer, fine. Tomorrows sun will not be delayed one split second.:rolleyes:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
JustAChristian,

"Not every one that saith unto Me,Lord,Lord,shall enter into the kingdom of heaven,but he that doeth the will of My Father,Who is in heaven"(Mt.7:21).

What is the will of God?

"This is the work of God,that ye believe on Him Whom He sent"(Jn.6:29).

There are plenty of people on this forum who have never believed Him.Instead they TOTALLY believe the doctrines and systems developed by men,and just because some of it corresponds tothe Word of God they believe that they are saved.

But in the day that they will meet their Maker,He is going to say to them,"You never believed My Word.The only time you believed My Word was when it happened to correspond with what you believed that man taught you.When it came to a choice between what man taught,and what Scriptures actually said,you believed the TEACHING OF MAN EVERY SINGLE TIME!"

It is "faith" that overcomes the world and it is "faith" alone that brings eternal life:

"For whoever is born of God overcometh the world;and this is the victory that overcometh the world,even our faith"(1Jn.5:4).

And there are many who believe that they are saved just becuse "some" of what they believe happens to correspond with the word of God.But they never believed God;they only believed the teaching of man.

"But in vain do they worship Me,teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"(Mt.15:9).

Yes,they will fight like dogs to defend the teachings of man,even if it means ignoring the plain word of the Lord Jesus Christ or twisting His word.

"For unto us was the gospel preached,as well unto them;but the word preached did not profit them,not being mixed with faith in them that heard it"(Heb.4:2).

When the jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?",Paul replied:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved,and thy house"(Acts16:31).

I await your answer as to why we shouldn´t believe the plain words of Paul that salvation comes by "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ".

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Evangelion

New member
Rev, I am neither edgy nor hostile.

I'm simply asking you to stop and consider the fact that when I use words like "saved" I don't necessarily mean what you mean.

:)
 

JustAChristian

New member
Jerry's Last Post.

Jerry's Last Post.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

"Not every one that saith unto Me,Lord,Lord,shall enter into the kingdom of heaven,but he that doeth the will of My Father,Who is in heaven"(Mt.7:21).

What is the will of God?

"This is the work of God,that ye believe on Him Whom He sent"(Jn.6:29).

There are plenty of people on this forum who have never believed Him.Instead they TOTALLY believe the doctrines and systems developed by men,and just because some of it corresponds tothe Word of God they believe that they are saved.

But in the day that they will meet their Maker,He is going to say to them,"You never believed My Word.The only time you believed My Word was when it happened to correspond with what you believed that man taught you.When it came to a choice between what man taught,and what Scriptures actually said,you believed the TEACHING OF MAN EVERY SINGLE TIME!"

It is "faith" that overcomes the world and it is "faith" alone that brings eternal life:

"For whoever is born of God overcometh the world;and this is the victory that overcometh the world,even our faith"(1Jn.5:4).

And there are many who believe that they are saved just becuse "some" of what they believe happens to correspond with the word of God.But they never believed God;they only believed the teaching of man.

"But in vain do they worship Me,teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"(Mt.15:9).

Yes,they will fight like dogs to defend the teachings of man,even if it means ignoring the plain word of the Lord Jesus Christ or twisting His word.

"For unto us was the gospel preached,as well unto them;but the word preached did not profit them,not being mixed with faith in them that heard it"(Heb.4:2).

When the jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?",Paul replied:"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved,and thy house"(Acts16:31).I await your answer as to why we shouldn´t believe the plain words of Paul that salvation comes by "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ".

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry
I think you are discribing yourself.

When the jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?",Paul replied:"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved,and thy house"(Acts16:31).

I await your answer as to why we shouldn´t believe the plain words of Paul that salvation comes by "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ".

Have you ever heard of a figure of speach called a Synecdoche?

Let me show you what Webster's Dictionary has to say about this unusual firgure of speach:

Main Entry: syn·ec·do·che
Pronunciation: s&-'nek-d&-(")kE
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from Greek synekdochE, from syn- + ekdochE sense, interpretation, from ekdechesthai to receive, understand, from ex from + dechesthai to receive; akin to Greek dokein to seem good -- more at EX-, DECENT
Date: 15th century
: a figure of speech by which a part is put for the whole (as fifty sail for fifty ships), the whole for a part (as society for high society), the species for the genus (as cutthroat for assassin), the genus for the species (as a creature for a man), or the name of the material for the thing made (as boards for stage)
- syn·ec·doch·ic /"si-"nek-'dä-kik/ adjective
- syn·ec·doch·i·cal /-'dä-ki-k&l/ adjective
- syn·ec·doch·i·cal·ly /-ki-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Now, what is all this about? What I am showing you is a word that will answer your question on the point of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". You will see in what Webster's has to say, that a synecdoche is a word where a part stands for the whole. When Paul said to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, he was using a synecdoche. The word "believe" is standing for all that is required of the jailor to do, such as hear the gospel for faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17), believe that Jesus is the son of God (John 8:24), confess him before man (Matthew 10:32-33), repenting of sins (Luke 13:3), and being baptized for the remission of sins, and rising to walk in newness of life. All this is encompassed in the term "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, if you have a problem with this, you'll have to take it up with Webster's dictionary. However, I have no problem with it. There are a lot of external evidences that can be used to show the truth of the scriptures. This is just one of them.

Paul and Silas was singing while in prison. They had been arrested for casting out the demon in the girl at Philippi. The prisioners and the jailor no doubt, were listening to the singing. The message of the song probably was that of instilling in someone the need to be saved. Suddenly there is an earthquake and the prison door are opened. The jailor rushes in and is about to kill himself thinking the prisoners had escaped. His death for their escape was the punishment for losing a prisoner. Paul told him to do himself no harm. He ponders the situation, thinking of what he had heard from these two men and asked: "What must I do to be saved?" Paul uses the term "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Paul simply tells him in a synecdochical terms to obey the gospel. Are you ready to obey the gospel?

JustAChristian

__________________________________-

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
JustAChristian,

So this is what is meant by "the simplicity that is in Christ"(2Cor.11:3)?

We must understand the term "synecdoche" in order to understand that we must not just believe "in Him",but also do everything He commanded to be done.

Are we to obey His command to keep the law of Moses?He said,"The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat.All,therefore,whatever they bid you observe,that observe and do..."(Mt.23:1-3).

If we use your idea concerning "synecdoche",then we must include this,because He did command it.

And if it was necessary to be "water baptized" to be saved,it is quite curious why Paul would address the Jews at Antioch Pisida and NEVER ONCE mention the fact that it is through "faith" AND "submitting to a rite of water baptism" that the sinner is saved.

The sermon he gave to these Jews take up TWENTY FIVE verses,and there was no interruption in his message,but not once does he say that to be saved they must submit to a rite of water baptism.However,he does say:

"Be it known to you,therefore,men and brethren,that through this Man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins;and BY HIM all that BELIEVE are justified from all things,from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses"(Acts13:38,39).

Never ONCE does Paul ever say that it is necessary to submit to the rite of water baptism in order to receive salvation.How do you explain that?Was Paul just forgetful?(Or perhaps it might have something to do with his words that 'Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel').

And in all the many times in the Acts narrative that Paul preached "salvation",he NEVER ONCE mentions the fact that it is necessary for the sinner to submit to the rite of water baptism for salvation.Did he just continue to forget to mention this vital fact?

I would say that anyone can find a word in the dictionary which gives them license to put words in the mouths of the Apostles,and thus justify teachings that are not there.In fact,by using your expression of speech named "synecdoche" it would be a simple matter to put all believers under the law of Moses by saying the same thing you said--that the expression "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" means to believe all and obey all the commandments which He uttered while He was on the earth.

And then it would be necessary to convince them that Cornelius was not saved until he was water baptized,even though he had his sins remitted,he believed in Christ,and the Holy Spirit fell on him before he was baptized in water.

Perhaps you can find a word in the dictionary that explains that also.

Me,I will stick with the plain words of Scripture.

In His grace,--Jerry
 
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HopeofGlory

New member
ISRAEL'S BAPTISM

Christ Jesus preached the kingdom message to Israel (the circumcision) and he chose the twelve to deliver it but He instructed them to not go to the Gentiles.

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles (uncircumcision), and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 10:6 (KJV)

Clearly the circumcision (law) message Peter preached to the Jews was not to be delivered to the uncircumcisied Gentiles (without law) or was Jesus wrong?

The gospel of the kingdom beginning with John the Baptist (Matt 3:2) was a message to be given only to Israel as God’s chosen people. This circumcision only message prepared the nation of Israel as priests before the cross and Christ commanded it was not to be delivered to Gentiles.

Water baptism was a ritual in the sense that is was a required act for religious benefit. Under the law this ordinance (required work) can clearly be seen in “old” testament rituals where the priest were made clean to receive the sacrifice. To say it was old testament simply means it was before the death of Christ for remission (Matt. 26:28) that made the new testament of His shed blood effectual (Heb. 9:17). This old testament rite was the declaration of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4) and it is the same as Peter's Pentecostal message (Acts 2:38) both were a “baptism of repentance for the remission of sins“.

In the ritual of sacrifice the priest were fully wet (not sprinkled) or "baptized" in water. This rite of cleansing removed sin temporarily and prepared them to receive the sacrifice. The priest would take of the sacrifical “blood” and "sprinkle" it on the people. The application of the blood forgave sins. Water baptism immersion is not a sign of the blood being sprinkled and they are clearly two different elements in the same ritual.

Israel's understanding of water baptism was that it "washed away their sins" even after the cross.

And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12 (KJV)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 (KJV)

Notice the below scripture is unto the children of Israel and if ye “obey” my voice you will be a kingdom of priest and it is clear John the Baptist was that voice crying in the wilderness.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my "voice" indeed, and keep my (Mosaic) covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Ex. 19:5 (KJV)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex. 19:6 (KJV)

The "voice" of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mark 1:3 (KJV)
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)

The twelve were instructed in this circumcision message under the law and were commanded to “Go not into the way of the Gentiles“ but only to “the house of Israel”.

After the cross the apostles are now commanded to ....Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)

Why the change from.....Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Heb. 9:16 (KJV)
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Heb. 9:17 (KJV)

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

After the cross the new testament for remission of sins was now in force and it superceded (John 5:36) the old testament for remission in water baptism. The new testament message of His death (Matt. 26:28) was to be delivered to all the world. It was no longer to be only to Israel (Matt 10:5) because the cross remove the law (Col 2:14) and the message could now be received by Gentiles who were without the law (Rom 2:14).

After Jesus gave the new testament He explained it's full meaning with these words.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)

"The flesh profiteth nothing" negated the need for water baptism or obedience of the flesh to the law for remission of sins.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col. 2:14 (KJV)

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb. 6:1 (KJV)
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:2 (KJV)
And this will we do, if God permit. Heb. 6:3 (KJV)

Before the new testament sin remission also required endurance to the end. The new testament (Matt 26:28) with a better testimony (John 5:36) granted eternal life (John 6:54) and was only effectual after the cross (Heb. 9:17).

Before the cross salvation was only found in ordinances of the law and the Gentiles were without the law (Rom. 2:14) contained in the old testimony for sin remission. Righteousness at that time had to be received under the ordinances contained in the law (Rom. 2:26) simply because the new testament had no strength until after the death of Christ.

Peter's Pentecostal message for remission was not the new testament (Matt 26:28) and his message (Acts 2:38) was not meant to be delivered to uncircumcised Gentiles who were without the law. The Pentecostal experience therefore was strictly Jewish. The apostles were teachings the same message after the cross (Acts. 2:38) as the Baptist was before the cross (Mark 1:4). Therefore the apostles at Pentecost did not teach (Matt. 26:28) because Israel as a whole had not yet accepted Christ as the Messiah so they were not ready to receive the message of the cross.

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

Two witnesses! Matt 26:28 superceded Acts 2:38.

But I have a greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)

Christ's gave us the "NEW" testament in His blood "for" remission of sins. This is a simple fact that can not be reasoned away with false analogies. Signs are a shadow of things to come and are of no use after the real things are manifested. To say we still need water baptism is no different than to say we still need circumcision of the flesh. Water baptism "for" remission of sins (old testament) was a mere shadow of faith in His shed blood for remission of sins (new testament). Some would have us believe water baptism is a sign of the applied blood of Christ but this is clearly not the case. This confusion is found in those who sprinkle instead of immerse in water because the high priest sprinkled when he applied the blood.

Israel was God's chosen people to deliver the message of His sacrifical blood for remission to the world. We will look in vain for that message at Pentecost.
Christ died for our sins and it is through the shedding of His blood that all who have faith in God’s witness are born again by the Spirit of Christ. The Pentecostal message of water baptism is void of the power of God that Christ “died for our sins” and through “faith in His blood” our sins are remitted. This bloodless gospel for remission fulfilled this prophetic scripture.....Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa. 60:16 (KJV)

God called Paul to apply the blood of our Sacrifice for remission and this message would be received freely by the Gentiles because they were without the law.

Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46 (KJV)

Paul is the first man to deliver the new testament proclaiming righteousness without the ordinances (ritual of water baptism) of the law.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say at this time , his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)

Now through the new testament (Matt 26:28) their righteous obedience to ordinances of the law were no longer accepted and it was replaced by the righteousness of Christ by His obedience to the cross.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom. 5:20 (KJV)

Water baptism was obeyed "for" remission of sins under the law and it can not be argued to the contrary unless you choose to go against clear biblical teaching. "If" indeed faith in His shed blood in the "new" testament now gives remission of sins and His death done away with the law then we can conclude the "old" testament "for" remission of sins has indeed been superceded by the "new".

The death of Christ was not taught as the means "for" remission at Pentecost but obeying in water baptism "for" remission was commanded. The main point here is those at Pentecost had to be water baptized to be saved and that was a clear message....Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him. Acts 5:32 (KJV)

Clearly two different messages for sin remission were preached! The circumcision message was only to Israel of the law before the cross and the uncircumcision message to Gentiles without the law and Jews instructing them out of the law after the cross .

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Gal. 2:7 (KJV)
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles Gal. 2:8 (KJV)

Jesus instructed the apostles to go to the world “after” the new testament for remission (Matt. 26:28) was given and He did not instruct them to WATER baptism.

There is only one baptism (Spirit) not two and through the practice of water baptism many are deceived and have accepted it for remission of sins and in this fact alone we must realize the error of man’s witness which is not God’s.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph. 4:6 (KJV)

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil (Mosaic) untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb. 10:9 (KJV)
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb. 10:10 (KJV)

Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)

Old things (old testament) are passed away and all things are new (new testament).

We know what is truth by the gospel that came forth from the very lips of Christ our Saviour.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. Matt. 26:29 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig
 

JustAChristian

New member
Jerry!

Jerry!

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

So this is what is meant by "the simplicity that is in Christ"(2Cor.11:3)?

We must understand the term "synecdoche" in order to understand that we must not just believe "in Him",but also do everything He commanded to be done.

Are we to obey His command to keep the law of Moses?He said,"The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat.All,therefore,whatever they bid you observe,that observe and do..."(Mt.23:1-3).

If we use your idea concerning "synecdoche",then we must include this,because He did command it.

And if it was necessary to be "water baptized" to be saved,it is quite curious why Paul would address the Jews at Antioch Pisida and NEVER ONCE mention the fact that it is through "faith" AND "submitting to a rite of water baptism" that the sinner is saved.

The sermon he gave to these Jews take up TWENTY FIVE verses,and there was no interruption in his message,but not once does he say that to be saved they must submit to a rite of water baptism.However,he does say:

"Be it known to you,therefore,men and brethren,that through this Man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins;and BY HIM all that BELIEVE are justified from all things,from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses"(Acts13:38,39).

Never ONCE does Paul ever say that it is necessary to submit to the rite of water baptism in order to receive salvation.How do you explain that?Was Paul just forgetful?(Or perhaps it might have something to do with his words that 'Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel').

And in all the many times in the Acts narrative that Paul preached "salvation",he NEVER ONCE mentions the fact that it is necessary for the sinner to submit to the rite of water baptism for salvation.Did he just continue to forget to mention this vital fact?

I would say that anyone can find a word in the dictionary which gives them license to put words in the mouths of the Apostles,and thus justify teachings that are not there.In fact,by using your expression of speech named "synecdoche" it would be a simple matter to put all believers under the law of Moses by saying the same thing you said--that the expression "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" means to believe all and obey all the commandments which He uttered while He was on the earth.

And then it would be necessary to convince them that Cornelius was not saved until he was water baptized,even though he had his sins remitted,he believed in Christ,and the Holy Spirit fell on him before he was baptized in water.

Perhaps you can find a word in the dictionary that explains that also.

Me,I will stick with the plain words of Scripture.

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry is not willing to take external evidence as a source of proving truth. Paul used external evidence in Athens to show that the Greeks were very superstitious people. He also mentioned their poets in the same context (Acts 17), but Jerry want nothing to do with external evidence. Thats okey, Jerry. We will go with what you want and let the people see your fullness or emptiness.

Lets talk some more on why we should be baptized

Immersion or Baptism as it has been interpreted, is a vital subject to discuss at any time, and I have chosen to briefly speak today on it's importance, for Jesus has given it prominence in the plan of salvation. Let's see what the Bible has to say about water baptism.

In the gospel of Mark, chapter 16 and verse 16 the Bible says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be condemned" First we note that before someone is to be baptized, he or she must be a believer. That belief must be in the gospel of Jesus Christ which tell us He is God's Son, so one must believe that Christ is God's son. Second, we note that baptism is essential for salvation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" The apostle Peter tell us, ""The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21). Peter plainly says that baptism saves. I have fullest confidence in what Peter has taught in other subjects, so I shouldn't doubt what he is teaching here, should I? Of course not! He preached baptism in Acts 2, and said that it us unto the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Then, when one is baptized in order to have their sins forgiven, then its the same as being saved. The "for" mentioned in Acts 2:38 is a preposition and in the Greek in which the New Testament was written, it is EIS and always looks forward--going into, etc. It never looks back to past events, so one is not baptized because his sins have been forgiven. Never be fooled on this subject.

Paul the apostle relates how Ananias, the preacher, told him as he was praying at Damascus (Acts.22:16) "And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" Paul must have done just that, and not argued one moment, for he went out preaching to and baptizing many who believed in Jesus Christ (Rom.6:1-4; Gal 3:27; Acts 19:1-7).

The church at Rome was taught the after being baptized, they were expected to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:4) Why couldn't they walk in newness of life before being baptized? Its because that newness of life comes after being immersed into Christ.

Jesus taught that in order to be born again, one must be baptized saying "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" Jesus is merely saying that passing through the water, following the message of the Spirit through the word of God places us on the other side into salvation in the Kingdom of God. Like the Israelites, who had to cross the Red Sea and the Jordan river which are both "types of water baptism" we too must be baptized in order to enter into the kingdom of Christ Jesus.

Many try to say that depending on water baptism for salvation is "works salvation." I contend that it is obeying Christ (Heb.5:8-9) The preacher of the gospel, Titus said, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5) When one is baptized for the remission of sins, Christ give him the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). We cannot be justified by His grace without having our sins forgiven , and we cannot be forgiven until we have been baptized.

The act of believing and being baptized places us into the spiritual body of Christ (Rom. 6:3). We put on Christ, figuratively, as we would put on a garment, but its in the process of being water baptized (Gal 3:27) There is no other way to understand this passage.

In conclusion, let us see this final point for today. Being water baptized is necessary in order to obey God (Matthew 28:19; Acts 10:48) This is what Bible teaches on the subject. You make the decision, for its so vital for salvation.


JustAChristians
 
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Kevin

New member
Jerry,

You are so lost in your beliefs that even though the words are right there in BLACK AND WHITE you are blinded to them.

Peter told Cornelius and his household "that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remesssion of sins"(Acts10:43).

I'm not lost... you're just confused. You apparently don't understand what it means to "believe" in Christ to recieve the remission of sins. It's NOT belief only.

James 2:19-20
19) You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble.
20) but do you want ot know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?


Also consider this:

James 1:22
22) But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, decieving yourselves.

Belief on it's own will do you no good. Even the demons believe - are they saved? To truly "believe in Christ", means that you will not only believe the gospel, but you will obey the gospel. Part of the gospel message is the command to be baptized for the remission of sin. The people who believe in Christ and recieve remission of sins are the ones who believe not only in Him, but do what is told of them to recieve the remission of sins... baptism.

Why would Peter tell one group one thing (Acts 2:38) and another group another (Acts 10:43). Are there two faiths? Not according to Ephesians 4:5. Peter told the people in Acts 10 to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Why was that, Jerry? Why? What is the baptism of the Lord for?

You cannot believe this though,because it goes against the teaching that you have received by man.

Whatever, Jerry. The faith only doctrine is the doctrine of man. There are plenty of biblical examles that include people being baptized for the remission of sins. Being baptized for the remission of sins Biblical, not man-made.

Try telling the people in Matt.25:41-46 that "faith only" saves. :rolleyes:

You ignore the plain words from Peter to Cornelius that "whosoever believth in Him shall receive remession of sins"

Again, you don't understand the type of belief spoken of here. There are PLENTY of examples in the Bible that belief by itself will get you a one way ticket to nowhere.

And then when this is pointed out to you,you just IGNORE IT,just like you IGNORED the Scripture passage that completely demolishes your ideas of "water baptism".

You haven't demolished anything. Nothing.
 
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HopeofGlory

New member
Kevin

You said:
Belief on it's own will do you no good. Even the demons believe - are they saved? To truly "believe in Christ", means that you will not only believe the gospel, but you will obey the gospel. Part of the gospel message is the command to be baptized for the remission of sin. The people who believe in Christ and recieve remission of sins are the ones who believe not only in Him, but do what is told of them to recieve the remission of sins... baptism.

My reply:
Your doctrine is based on the Pentacostal message that is "VOID" of the new testament for remission of sins. The demons believed Jesus was the son of God and this belief alone will not grant eternal life. It is true we must obey the words of Christ and His words of eternal life are:

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)

You have NOT obeyed these words of Christ and your confusion is leading you down a path to destruction. Stop now and accept the finished work of Christ at the cross for forgiveness of sins because your flesh will profit you nothing.

It is true obedience to water baptism combined with the belief that Jesus was the Son of God granted remission of sins. This message was strictly Jewish. God interrupted Peter before he could command the Gentile Cornelius to be water baptized. Cornelius was accepted as witnessed by the Spirit before water baptism. Again, the Holy Ghost WITNESSED that Cornelius received forgiveness of sins.

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 (KJV)
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32 (KJV)

AT THIS TIME we have a new testament message with a greater witness for remission of sins and the old has faded away.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)

We must obey the words of the Lord Jesus by believing there is no profit in our works of the flesh and have faith that through His shed blood we receive eternal life.

I pray that you will believe and I would like to thank the other "doers" of His word on this forum that teach the "new" testament message of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

In Christ
Craig
 

Kevin

New member
I've got you.

I've got you.

C.Moore,

Sorry if I miss you questions and if I do just remind me , because i would what my questions answered as well.
So I will according to your verse you ask in Matt 25 which was recordedin the time 4 bc-ad 33 and this was something said by Jesus so it`s before the death and before the Holy Spirit came and there was not the grace and gift there at that time to my understanding I must say the truth YES.

What are you going to compare this with Kevin, because I see where your coming from but it won`t work out the way you think it is.
We live in a grace time, and mercyful time, and the favor of God is on alot of believer and unbelievers.

I've got you. It is you who are decieved. You really think this happened before the death on the cross? Guess again! Take a look at the whole thing in context, starting at Matt. 25:31. Its says:

Matt: 25: 31-32
31) When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32) All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepard divides his sheep from the goats.


Verses 31 all the way up to verse 46, which includes the people spoken of whom you admit were cast into hell because of their lack of good works, happens on the day of Judgement! Tell me, C.Moore, has Jesus come with all His angels, and has He separated the sheep from the goats yet?! NO! Jesus is clearly speaking about what will happen in the day of Judgement, which has NOT happened yet!

Now, about your questions:

Is there such thing in the bible which is called the spiritual baptism Kevin?

Yes.

What does this Spiritual baptism mean to you ; and is it more or less important than the natural water flesly baptism?

Well, there's falling of the Holy Spirit which gives the recipient the ability to do miraculous things. Examples of this can be found in Acts 2:4 and Acts 10:44.

Then there's the baptism that Jesus commanded in the Great Commission- the baptism of the Lord. It uses water (Acts 10:47) and also gives the one being baptized the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, Acts 19:1-5). It is the baptism of the Lord which forgives sins, therefore that is the "important" baptism. It's the baptism practiced by the apostles.

Is our natural life more important to God than our spiritual life?

Of course not.

Is our natural worship more important to God than our spiritual worship?

Errr... "Natural worship"? :confused:

Another example I forgot that I just seen is sence I think I understand about your baptism is that everytime baptism is mention in the bible you think it means water baptism , and when you get baptized it must be in the name of Jesus am I correct?

I believe that everytime the baptism in the name of the Lord is mentioned, it is speaking of water baptism (Acts 10:47-48). And yes, one must be baptized in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

This is why freak,RevLeonard,Jerry, and myself see different than you, because we are in the spiritual world and in the spirtual understanding of God and his wisdom according to 1Co:2:7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory

The baptism of the Lord definitely has a spiritual purpose... it's for the forgiveness of sins and allowing us to be reborn... walking in the newness of life. (Romans 6) Its what allows us to be alive to God in Jesus Christ (Romans 6:11). Definitely a spiritual purpose.
 
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Kevin

New member
HopeofGlory,

Your doctrine is based on the Pentacostal message that is "VOID" of the new testament for remission of sins.

You have yet to prove the pentcostal era "VOID".

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)

You have NOT obeyed these words of Christ and your confusion is leading you down a path to destruction. Stop now and accept the finished work of Christ at the cross for forgiveness of sins because your flesh will profit you nothing.

What have I NOT obeyed?

It is true obedience to water baptism combined with the belief that Jesus was the Son of God granted remission of sins. This message was strictly Jewish.

It was NOT strictly Jewish. Besides Peter baptizing the Gentiles in the name of the Lord, Paul also baptized in the name of the Lord to some Ephesians in Acts 19:5.

God interrupted Peter before he could command the Gentile Cornelius to be water baptized.

Please. Don't you think that if Peter was not supposed to baptize them in water that God would have told him so? After all, it was the Holy Spirit that was guiding Peter into all truth. The falling of the Holy Spirit was merely a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles were also part of the New covenant, nothing more. Why do you think the Jews were "astonished" to see this happen?

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)

"AT THIS TIME" is in reference to the age after the death of the cross. This isn't a reference that suggests yet another faith after the faith given after the cross. Paul is comparing the times of the Mosaic Law with that of the Christian era.

We must obey the words of the Lord Jesus by believing there is no profit in our works of the flesh and have faith that through His shed blood we receive eternal life.

Of course I've obyed the words of Jesus... I've believed and been baptized to be saved, just as He said in Mark 16:16.

You don't seem to know what works of the flesh are. Baptism is not a work of the flesh. Paul tells us what the works of the flesh are in Galatians 5:19-21:

Galatians 5:19-21
19) Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20) idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissentsions, heresies,
21) envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now tell me, did you see baptism, or any other thing that remotely hinted at baptism in those verses? :rolleyes: I didn't.
 
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c.moore

New member
Quote :Jerry Shugart

I would say that anyone can find a word in the dictionary which gives them license to put words in the mouths of the Apostles,and thus justify teachings that are not there.In fact,by using your expression of speech named "synecdoche" it would be a simple matter to put all believers under the law of Moses by saying the same thing you said--that the expression "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" means to believe all and obey all the commandments which He uttered while He was on the earth.

And then it would be necessary to convince them that Cornelius was not saved until he was water baptized,even though he had his sins remitted,he believed in Christ,and the Holy Spirit fell on him before he was baptized in water.

Perhaps you can find a word in the dictionary that explains that also.

Quote c.moore

I think you have justAchristian on the run,and If you keep it up I think He might drop to his knees instead of always falling in the water.

praise God for you jerry , and stay under the anointing of God so you can break the religious demonic spirits . :up:
 
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