The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

First of all M't:28:18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
M't:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
M't:28:20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Notice Jesus is speaking , and my bible is marked in read meaning Jesus is speaking, because Jesus spake not Matthew.


Acts 2:38 I believe , and we teach and is taught also that the baptism here is not water baptism , but this is a spiritual baptism which is followed after the Holy ghost baptism of Pentecost.

freelight
, you have done a very good work about the good news, and the water is not that which washes or sins.

God bless you and thank for defending the gospel.

 

[freelight]

settlement........

settlement........

Hi Kev, rene and others who share 'your' perspective...........

I believe I have extensively and exhaustively shared my views on this subject.....and you still misunderstand or misinterpret some of my thesis. I rest my case.....what I have written I have written.
Let the readers choose.

You neglect to see my observance that Pauls understanding of baptism has various spiritual dimensions to it not limited to the act of water baptism. Christ comes to baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire - our life/communion with Christ 'in spirit' is the primary essential. Baptism in essence is our immersion into God and His immersion into us - we being made one - of one Spirit in Him. Being in Christ.....we are identified with Him and participate in His procession of transformation and ascension. We are in Christ...and He is in us - this is a spiritual reality. This state and process is not without metaphor and figurative speech....hence the difficulty of some to reconcile certain perspectives related.


God bless you in your quest for truth,


paul

 

[c.moore]

Re: settlement........

Re: settlement........

Originally posted by freelight
Hi Kev, rene and others who share 'your' perspective...........

I believe I have extensively and exhaustively shared my views on this subject.....and you still misunderstand or misinterpret some of my thesis. I rest my case.....what I have written I have written.
Let the readers choose.

You neglect to see my observance that Pauls understanding of baptism has various spiritual dimensions to it not limited to the act of water baptism. Christ comes to baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire - our life/communion with Christ 'in spirit' is the primary essential. Baptism in essence is our immersion into God and His immersion into us - we being made one - of one Spirit in Him. Being in Christ.....we are identified with Him and participate in His procession of transformation and ascension. We are in Christ...and He is in us - this is a spiritual reality. This state and process is not without metaphor and figurative speech....hence the difficulty of some to reconcile certain perspectives related.


God bless you in your quest for truth,


paul

Some of us know exactly how you feel, and some people are really blind like Paul killing the gospel with all their little hearts.:thumb:

Sometime it takes only Jesus alone to open the understanding of the principle of salvation.

I am suprised nobody came up with a doctrine we have to be literally also nailed to the cross to follow jesus.



God Bless you

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

First of all M't:28:18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
M't:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
M't:28:20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Notice Jesus is speaking , and my bible is marked in read meaning Jesus is speaking, because Jesus spake not Matthew.

I agree... Christ spoke it, Matthew recorded it. Freelight, whom you praise for "defending the gospel", finds that entire verse to be "suspect", in other words, he's not sure that verse should even be there. You did notice that, right?

Acts 2:38 I believe , and we teach and is taught also that the baptism here is not water baptism

Oh really? Then how do you explain the fact that Acts 10:47-48 shows that baptism in the name of the Lord, the same baptism as the one in Acts 2:38, is done with water? Both accounts show people being baptized in the name of the Lord, and Acts 10:47-48 clearly shows this to be done with water.

And why all the sudden change in your viewpoint in Acts 2:38? Here's what you said a few pages back:

Kevin said:
"If we were washed of ours sins BEFORE baptism, then why did Peter tell the Jews in Acts 2:38 to be baptized for the remission of sins AFTER they believed?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


C.Moore said:
"The Jews did at that time have still the tradition of John of water baptism which the Jew followed , but the main thing and the key is the believing first that get them saved, ands also the baptism is in the following of Jesus."

Here's the link: http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66&perpage=15&pagenumber=258

It's closer to the the bottom in the post where you quote a bunch of Hebrews verses at the end of that post.

You just believe whatever anybody says as long as they are in the anti-baptism necessary for salvation group. They have different teachings, yet you tell them they are good teachings, or they are defending the gospel. Flip flop, flip flop. :down:

 

[Kevin]

Freelight,

You neglect to see my observance

Actually, I went through your views and did a point by point rebuttal, which includes Paul's viewpoint on baptism. I would hardly call this neglect.

And after this point by point refutation, you're bowing out. How disappointing.

 

[c.moore]

Kevin who is believing inthe flip flop is you.

You have the gospel bacwards , and you don`t want to see it.

You believe all you can do or obey first before being saved , and this is not the free Gospel of Christ and a message of Christ.

Any way you look at it your theology is a merit earned salvation, that you try to out it in other words.

You can´t obey your way into heaven just like you can`t swim into heaven .

Be blessed

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
Freelight,



Actually, I went through your views and did a point by point rebuttal, which includes Paul's viewpoint on baptism. I would hardly call this neglect.

And after this point by point refutation, you're bowing out. How disappointing.

This what you are saying is nothing new to me , and I told you before without calling you an Mormon I have this same belief debate with the Mormons so I understand why you think the way you do.


peace

 

[rene]

"You neglect to see my observance that Pauls understanding of baptism has various spiritual dimensions to it not limited to the act of water baptism. Christ comes to baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire - our life/communion with Christ 'in spirit' is the primary essential. Baptism in essence is our immersion into God and His immersion into us - we being made one - of one Spirit in Him. Being in Christ.....we are identified with Him and participate in His procession of transformation and ascension. We are in Christ...and He is in us - this is a spiritual reality. This state and process is not without metaphor and figurative speech....hence the difficulty of some to reconcile certain perspectives related."

No, didn't neglect it all all. What has been neglected is that you seem to refuse to see that there was also a physical act as well, as shown within scripture. From what you have written, it seems to be a personal choice on your part to part to ignore portions of scripture. A simple study of the words within the verses given will show you that it is indeed a physical act that does have spiritual relevance.

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Kevin who is believing inthe flip flop is you.

You have the gospel bacwards , and you don`t want to see it.

You believe all you can do or obey first before being saved , and this is not the free Gospel of Christ and a message of Christ.

Any way you look at it your theology is a merit earned salvation, that you try to out it in other words.

You can´t obey your way into heaven just like you can`t swim into heaven .

Is that all you've got? You have yet to prove your points. I don't flip flop, I preach the same thing throughout this thread, that baptism is necessary for salvation.

You on the other hand have clearly gone back and forth over Acts 2:38, as I've proven. First you say it is with water, and now you flip and say it's not. Your interpretation depends on who is debating me.

 

[c.moore]

Not everywhere that say´sbaptism in the bible means water or get wet rituals.

i hope people know that there is a spiritual baptism that counts more for our spiritual God that we worship also in the spirit.


God bless

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Do you now think that Matt. 28:19-20, perhaps shouldn't be in the Bible, since that's Freelight's view... the one who you praised for defending the gospel?

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



Is that all you've got? You have yet to prove your points. I don't flip flop, I preach the same thing throughout this thread, that baptism is necessary for salvation.

You on the other hand have clearly gone back and forth over Acts 2:38, as I've proven. First you say it is with water, and now you flip and say it's not. Your interpretation depends on who is debating me.

You see i am growing, and getting deeper in the truth of God and the water of the Word.


God Bless

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Not everywhere that say´sbaptism in the bible means water or get wet rituals.

i hope people know that there is a spiritual baptism that counts more for our spiritual God that we worship also in the spirit.

I never claimed that everytime that baptism is mentioned that it means water. None of what you said changes the fact that your viewpoint on Acts 2:38 flipped, and you are having obvious trouble coming to terms with that and admitting it.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,

Do you now think that Matt. 28:19-20, perhaps shouldn't be in the Bible, since that's Freelight's view... the one who you praised for defending the gospel?

NO!

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



I never claimed that everytime that baptism is mentioned that it means water. None of what you said changes the fact that your viewpoint on Acts 2:38 flipped, and you are having obvious trouble coming to terms with that and admitting it.

:help: :chuckle:

 

[Kevin]

Just checking.... I would hardly call one who finds Matt. 28:19-20 "suspect" as being a good defender of the gospel. Heh... the gospel wouldn't happened unless Christ commissioned them to spread it... and freelight finds it "suspect". Hmm....

 

[rene]

"i hope people know that there is a spiritual baptism that counts more for our spiritual God that we worship also in the spirit."

I have seen NONE suggest that spiritual is less. Frankly, I don't see levels within the bible to them. I just see them ALL within the bible, something that we are to follow in and seek. What causes concern is that you seem to not want to face what is clearly within the bible because it goes against your preconceived theology. What you are doing is turning from the very words Jesus spoke in Matt. 28 and saying what He said doesn't mean what He said. That from my perspective and knowledge of the bible places you in a very dangerous position. To not warn you of that would make me part of and supporting of something that is wrong. That I can not nor would I do.

 

[rene]

"I would hardly call one who finds Matt. 28:19-20 "suspect" as being a good defender of the gospel. Heh... the gospel wouldn't happened unless Christ commissioned them to spread it... and freelight finds it "suspect". Hmm...."

I will give the benefit of the doubt and suggest that MAYBE he was speaking to Mark 16:9-20 - which has in the past been considered to be controversial. Recent discoveries tho - if not mistaken - within the dead sea scrolls show that the doubt was misplaced. I read and get so many different emails and regular mail information from several sources that I honestly can't say where I saw it. Place on top of that the 2 strokes that I have had within the last year - my memory still has a few problems now and again.

I know that he DID SAY Matt. 28. But as I mentioned to him previously - it didn't matter since the same thing was written within another of the gospels. He didn't make reply to that - but didn't think he would either.

 

[Kevin]

Rene,

I will give the benefit of the doubt and suggest that MAYBE he was speaking to Mark 16:9-20 -

I'm afraid not, because this is not the first time freelight has "suspected" Matt. 28. It's amazing how far people will go to defend their doctrine. I wonder how many other verses in the Bible he finds "suspect".

 

[rene]

"I'm afraid not, because this is not the first time freelight has "suspected" Matt. 28."

You have a point there. It really does appear that anything that doesn't go along with his view is suspect. Pointing it out within the bible doesn't seem to have an effect on his stand - does tend to make me wonder just WHERE he is getting his views from - or making them up as he goes maybe?