The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
SIN is an ILLEGAL breaking of the LAW.
and is an offence against the RIGHTOUSNESS of God.
There is only ONE remdedy for the REMISSION OF SINS and that is by the LEGAL REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW.
NAMELY:The shedding of BLOOD.
There are too MANY scriptures and can EASILY be found to substantiate it.
and the BOOKS OF deutronomy,levitcus will amply do so.
Now the taking of ONE verse which on the interpretation of some says the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of whole BOOKS of scripture.
Is in the LIGHT of scripture a FALSE interpretation.
"FOR WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION OF SINS"
nOW to those then who say BAPTISM in WATER remits sin;by so doing make it a LEGAL REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW.
But in truth this is FALSE.
bECAUSE in a way you are saying it is by YOUR DEATH in BAPTISM albeit (you say) in Christ. that JUSTFIES YOU by the FULLFILLED requirement Of the LAW.
But even if this was so (you say) then if you DIE a SINNER you CANNOT be raised AGAIN FROM THE DEAD! seeing that God CANNOT justyfiably according to lLAW do so.
Therefore if we ARE raised from the dead it is NOT our DOING or DYING but CHRISTS!
Seeing that it was HIS death THAT fullfilled the LAW of God.
Now if then it was HIS death and we DIE IN HIM it is NOT THEN by OUR ACT or WORK that JUSTYFIES US or remits our sin but HIS!
BAPTISM being only that CONFORMITY of the BODY to the WILL of God in a RIGHTOUSNESS already counted to US because of our FAITH "IN believeing "IN cHRIST!
Therefore in ALL WAYS BAPTISM neither SAVES US nor remits our sins.
Seeing that we are reconiled to God "by the blood of His cross" and "are SAVED BY HIS (RESURECTED) LIFE"!
THEREFORE no ONE verse of scripture can or does PROVE or give any FOUNDATION for a DOCTRIN unless it is SUBSTANTIATED in the SAME WAY by others in plain,types and in divers ways.
and is an offence against the RIGHTOUSNESS of God.
There is only ONE remdedy for the REMISSION OF SINS and that is by the LEGAL REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW.
NAMELY:The shedding of BLOOD.
There are too MANY scriptures and can EASILY be found to substantiate it.
and the BOOKS OF deutronomy,levitcus will amply do so.
Now the taking of ONE verse which on the interpretation of some says the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of whole BOOKS of scripture.
Is in the LIGHT of scripture a FALSE interpretation.
"FOR WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION OF SINS"
nOW to those then who say BAPTISM in WATER remits sin;by so doing make it a LEGAL REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW.
But in truth this is FALSE.
bECAUSE in a way you are saying it is by YOUR DEATH in BAPTISM albeit (you say) in Christ. that JUSTFIES YOU by the FULLFILLED requirement Of the LAW.
But even if this was so (you say) then if you DIE a SINNER you CANNOT be raised AGAIN FROM THE DEAD! seeing that God CANNOT justyfiably according to lLAW do so.
Therefore if we ARE raised from the dead it is NOT our DOING or DYING but CHRISTS!
Seeing that it was HIS death THAT fullfilled the LAW of God.
Now if then it was HIS death and we DIE IN HIM it is NOT THEN by OUR ACT or WORK that JUSTYFIES US or remits our sin but HIS!
BAPTISM being only that CONFORMITY of the BODY to the WILL of God in a RIGHTOUSNESS already counted to US because of our FAITH "IN believeing "IN cHRIST!
Therefore in ALL WAYS BAPTISM neither SAVES US nor remits our sins.
Seeing that we are reconiled to God "by the blood of His cross" and "are SAVED BY HIS (RESURECTED) LIFE"!
THEREFORE no ONE verse of scripture can or does PROVE or give any FOUNDATION for a DOCTRIN unless it is SUBSTANTIATED in the SAME WAY by others in plain,types and in divers ways.
geralduk,
It is not 'those who say baptism in water remits sin' that my question addresses. It is the very plain words of scripture at Romans 6.
Paul tells us in those verses that through baptism we are joined to Christ's death, and that by sharing in the likeness of his death we will share in His Resurrection as well. And because we have died with Christ in such a manner, our sins have been absolved.
Those are the words of St. Paul and no one else. They appear to me to mean baptism is much more than just a symbol performed to show our faith to other men.
My question is, if you believe baptism is only a symbol, how does that belief coexist with Pauls words at Romans 6?
Can you answer that one simple question geralduk?
God Bless,
Francisco
No geralduk, you are reading my words in the same manner you read scripture. You are reading words into what I've said and ignoring other things I've said, based on your precenceived idea of what I am saying.
It is not 'those who say baptism in water remits sin' that my question addresses. It is the very plain words of scripture at Romans 6.
Paul tells us in those verses that through baptism we are joined to Christ's death, and that by sharing in the likeness of his death we will share in His Resurrection as well. And because we have died with Christ in such a manner, our sins have been absolved.
Those are the words of St. Paul and no one else. They appear to me to mean baptism is much more than just a symbol performed to show our faith to other men.
My question is, if you believe baptism is only a symbol, how does that belief coexist with Pauls words at Romans 6?
Can you answer that one simple question geralduk?
God Bless,
Francisco
RightIdea
New member
Except you're forgetting one thing. All things are lawful for one who believes. And I hope and pray that you will come to realize that as long as you put yourself under the Law, you continue to deny Christ's work on the cross.
WE DON'T NEED THE LAW. We don't need what Paul referred to as the "ministry of death." I will never understand why someone would want to cling to such a thing.
RightIdea,
I agree with your statement above regarding the mosaic law. Good point.
Can I get you to answer the question everyone seems to be ignoring:
If you believe baptism is only a symbol, how does that belief coexist with Pauls words at Romans 6?
I'm particularly interested to know how the 'baptism is symbolic belief' coexists with Paul's idea that:
'Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were indeed buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might have newness of life. For if we have grown into union with Him through a death like this, we shall also be united with Him in the resurrection.'
It's not a loaded question folks, I'm trying to understand your position specifically on Romans 6.
God Bless,
Francisco
I agree with your statement above regarding the mosaic law. Good point.
Can I get you to answer the question everyone seems to be ignoring:
If you believe baptism is only a symbol, how does that belief coexist with Pauls words at Romans 6?
I'm particularly interested to know how the 'baptism is symbolic belief' coexists with Paul's idea that:
'Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were indeed buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might have newness of life. For if we have grown into union with Him through a death like this, we shall also be united with Him in the resurrection.'
It's not a loaded question folks, I'm trying to understand your position specifically on Romans 6.
God Bless,
Francisco
RightIdea
New member
Francisco, I already answered your question, but you completely missed it.
I have been born twice. Once of the water, and once of the spirit. Born of water, from my mother's womb. And born of the Spirit, when I accepted Christ.
I AM baptized. In the Holy Spirit. And that's exactly what Paul is talking about here.
Many of you seem to think that baptism was a new thing instituted by John the Baptist or Jesus or whatever. But this is not true. You just agreed, Francisco, that we are not under the Law of Moses. Well, baptism is part of the Mosaic Law, my brother. It isn't given that name, per se, because the OT was written in Hebrew, obviously, But in Numbers, we see baptism, not only of people but of all kinds of things, dipping in water and sprinkling with water for purification.
I have no use for the Law of Moses. And baptism is part of that.
I have been born twice. Once of the water, and once of the spirit. Born of water, from my mother's womb. And born of the Spirit, when I accepted Christ.
I AM baptized. In the Holy Spirit. And that's exactly what Paul is talking about here.
Many of you seem to think that baptism was a new thing instituted by John the Baptist or Jesus or whatever. But this is not true. You just agreed, Francisco, that we are not under the Law of Moses. Well, baptism is part of the Mosaic Law, my brother. It isn't given that name, per se, because the OT was written in Hebrew, obviously, But in Numbers, we see baptism, not only of people but of all kinds of things, dipping in water and sprinkling with water for purification.
I have no use for the Law of Moses. And baptism is part of that.
When Jesus said you "must be born of the WATER andf the SPIRIT"
he was meaning that as a person is born into this world FIRST by the breaking of the WATERS then the SHOW of BLOOD then the LIFE.
sO TOO must we be born by the WATERS.
NOT asmany thiink by BAPTISM in WATER.
But by the WORD OF GOD.
fOR faith "comes by "hearing the Word of God"and without faith IN God it is impossible to please Him"
When the Lord went to wash Peters feet,Peter after being convinced that he MUST have his feet washed said wash me all.
The Lord replied that he was ALREADY WASHED but needed only his FEET to be washed.
Why?
Because peter had been EXPOSED to the WORD OF GOD and had RECIVED IT,in FAITH BELEIEVING it was only his WALK that needed to be brought into conformity to the Word.
So needed washing.
It is written that "it has pleased God by the foolishnessof PREACHING to SAVEthem that believe"
Preaching?........THE WORD.
But the WORD ALONE is INSUFICENT to save without the HOLY SPIRIT also.
For "by HEARING"the Word we understand it is meaning that faith comes when we UNDERSTAND the MESSAGE that is preached.
and only HEARING it is insufficient.
But when we DO finaly UNDERSTAND IT our eyes have been OPENED to see the REALITY of that which is preached to us. and our faith is redirected from ourselves or this world and is BORN in God.
For in understanding that we sin because we are sinnersand estranged from God and more...that we canot save ourselves thE LAW convicting us of our sin and as such condemned and UNABLE to make aplea of our own rightousness we begin to undedtand that God has "ALREADY made provision forus" a substitte.
and we accept and recieve the promiseand the Holy Spirit confirms it and the blood is applied.
Then cometh the new lifeand we are BORNagain.
Jesus was baptised in WATER to fullfill ALL rightousness.
Now there is "a RIGHTOUSNESS that is of the LAW"
and also a RIGHTOUSNESS that is not of the law.
He being SINLESS fullfilled the rightousness of the LAW.
But being a Son also fullfilled that rightousness that is of TRUE godliness.
tHAT IS NOT OF THE LAW but oF grace.
Therefore being an OBEDIENT SON obeyed GODS rightousness that is HIS.
Now if we be sons then we are HIS and if His then part of that BODY which is the church.
and if part of HIS body must bneeds be ALSO baptisedin water even as HE WAS.
"For as the FATHER SENT mE SO SEND I YOU"nOW IF hE BEING THE only begotten SON was baptised in water not unto SALVATION but for RIGHTOUSNESS.showing that He was DEAD to SIN and ALIVE to God.that from that point on He was not His own but Gods and not there to do His will but the FATHERS.
hOW MUCH MORE then shouldwe folow in the same WAY?
Not after the LAW of sin and death; but the fulfilling of rightouisness and the "LAW OF CHRIST"
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Kevin
New member
Rightidea,
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was institued in Matt. 28:19-20, after the dispensation of the Mosaic Law. This is not the same as John's baptism, even though water is used in both baptisms.
Baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water, as proven in Acts 10:47-48. The apostles, which certainly includes Paul, practiced baptism in the name of the Lord after the Mosaic Law had been fulfilled.
Christ founded His chruch on Peter. What baptism was used in the first recorded gospel message (Acts 2), that the believers were added unto the His church? Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins (Acts 2:38). Again, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ uses WATER, as proven in Acts 10:47-48. Also, the eunuch in Acts 8 was baptized with water after being preached Jesus to him.
Baptism in the name of Christ is NOT part of the old Law or Christ would not have commanded it AFTER his death (Matt. 28:19-20). Why would the apostles, who in their epistles emphasized that believers were NO LONGER under the Law, baptize in name of Christ, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48) if it was part of the Law? Would it make sense for them to emphasize to the believers that they were no longer under the Law, but then baptize them into a baptism that was under the Law? No. The fact is, they emphasized to the believers that they were no longer under the law, and those same apostles who spoke these things practiced baptism in the name of the Lord, which was instituted after the death of Christ, and it is FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) BY the blood of Christ.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was institued in Matt. 28:19-20, after the dispensation of the Mosaic Law. This is not the same as John's baptism, even though water is used in both baptisms.
Baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water, as proven in Acts 10:47-48. The apostles, which certainly includes Paul, practiced baptism in the name of the Lord after the Mosaic Law had been fulfilled.
Christ founded His chruch on Peter. What baptism was used in the first recorded gospel message (Acts 2), that the believers were added unto the His church? Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins (Acts 2:38). Again, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ uses WATER, as proven in Acts 10:47-48. Also, the eunuch in Acts 8 was baptized with water after being preached Jesus to him.
Baptism in the name of Christ is NOT part of the old Law or Christ would not have commanded it AFTER his death (Matt. 28:19-20). Why would the apostles, who in their epistles emphasized that believers were NO LONGER under the Law, baptize in name of Christ, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48) if it was part of the Law? Would it make sense for them to emphasize to the believers that they were no longer under the Law, but then baptize them into a baptism that was under the Law? No. The fact is, they emphasized to the believers that they were no longer under the law, and those same apostles who spoke these things practiced baptism in the name of the Lord, which was instituted after the death of Christ, and it is FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) BY the blood of Christ.
RightIdea and geralduk,
From the very earliest times of Christianity, all the Christian writers made it abundantly clear that Jesus was talking about baptism in water when He said we must be born of water and Spirit. Many of these writers were students of the apostles or their direct disciples. So I don't buy this idea that the water Jesus spoke of was the water of birth. And the early Christians would disagree with you as well.
The second reason I don't buy it is because immediately after the dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus, John places emphasis on the idea Jesus was speaking about baptism by showing Jesus and the apostles going into Judea where they spend some time baptizing. It doesn't make sense that Jesus would be talking about the water of child birth and then go baptizing in Judea. Read the verses and see what I mean. The very first verse after Jesus finishes talking to Nicodemus is:
'After this, Jesus and the apostles went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing'.
The third reason I don't buy that theory is because Jesus was stunned that Nicodemus, being a teacher of Israel, didn't understand His words. The reason Jesus was stunned is because Nicodemus already knew about the 'rebirth' of Israel at Ezekiel 36 when God said he would 'sprinkle them with clean water' to remove all their sins. That rebirth of Israel through sprinkling of clean water is a prefigurement of Christian rebirth in the waters of baptism.
The fourth reason is that Peter shows the importance of baptism even after Cornelius and family received the Holy Spirit. Peter insisted on baptizing them, even though they had recieved the Holy Spirit. If reception of the Holy Spirit was all they needed, he wouldn't have insisted that Nicodemus be baptized.
The fifth reason is Peter proclaimed to the crowd at Pentecost, when asked what they should do, to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The sixth reason is Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize. Now, the only kind of baptism the apostles could perform was water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism. And Jesus didn't give idle commands to do things for the edification of other men, as your 'baptism is only a symbol' idea would have us believe.
The seventh reason I don't buy it is the parallel Paul draws in his words in Romans 6 to burial. Holy Spirit baptism doesn't resemble burial in any way. Baptism in water obviously does.
The eighth reason I don't buy it are the many examples of water baptisms performed by the apostles throughout scripture. They wouldn't have been baptizing people as soon as they confessed Christ if that baptism had no effect.
The ninth reason also has to do with the baptism of Cornelius. For those who argue this baptism is a symbol to show other men the faith of the one being baptized, that idea doesn't work here, as all the men present already saw the faith of the ones being baptized when they saw them receive the Holy Spirit.
God Bless,
Francisco
PS - RightIdea, baptism was not a condition of the mosaic law, circumcision was. And remember, Paul said that baptism replaced circumcision for Christians.
From the very earliest times of Christianity, all the Christian writers made it abundantly clear that Jesus was talking about baptism in water when He said we must be born of water and Spirit. Many of these writers were students of the apostles or their direct disciples. So I don't buy this idea that the water Jesus spoke of was the water of birth. And the early Christians would disagree with you as well.
The second reason I don't buy it is because immediately after the dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus, John places emphasis on the idea Jesus was speaking about baptism by showing Jesus and the apostles going into Judea where they spend some time baptizing. It doesn't make sense that Jesus would be talking about the water of child birth and then go baptizing in Judea. Read the verses and see what I mean. The very first verse after Jesus finishes talking to Nicodemus is:
'After this, Jesus and the apostles went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing'.
The third reason I don't buy that theory is because Jesus was stunned that Nicodemus, being a teacher of Israel, didn't understand His words. The reason Jesus was stunned is because Nicodemus already knew about the 'rebirth' of Israel at Ezekiel 36 when God said he would 'sprinkle them with clean water' to remove all their sins. That rebirth of Israel through sprinkling of clean water is a prefigurement of Christian rebirth in the waters of baptism.
The fourth reason is that Peter shows the importance of baptism even after Cornelius and family received the Holy Spirit. Peter insisted on baptizing them, even though they had recieved the Holy Spirit. If reception of the Holy Spirit was all they needed, he wouldn't have insisted that Nicodemus be baptized.
The fifth reason is Peter proclaimed to the crowd at Pentecost, when asked what they should do, to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The sixth reason is Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize. Now, the only kind of baptism the apostles could perform was water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism. And Jesus didn't give idle commands to do things for the edification of other men, as your 'baptism is only a symbol' idea would have us believe.
The seventh reason I don't buy it is the parallel Paul draws in his words in Romans 6 to burial. Holy Spirit baptism doesn't resemble burial in any way. Baptism in water obviously does.
The eighth reason I don't buy it are the many examples of water baptisms performed by the apostles throughout scripture. They wouldn't have been baptizing people as soon as they confessed Christ if that baptism had no effect.
The ninth reason also has to do with the baptism of Cornelius. For those who argue this baptism is a symbol to show other men the faith of the one being baptized, that idea doesn't work here, as all the men present already saw the faith of the ones being baptized when they saw them receive the Holy Spirit.
God Bless,
Francisco
PS - RightIdea, baptism was not a condition of the mosaic law, circumcision was. And remember, Paul said that baptism replaced circumcision for Christians.
HopeofGlory
New member
Romans 5 reveals how we are baptized into his death and it is an operation of God by the Spirit. Those who walk by sight and mind the things of the flesh say obeying the old testament command of water baptism places us into Christ yet they can not provide the scripture to prove it. Paul said Christ sent him not to baptize therefore we can conclude it is no longer necessary for the remission of sins. Paul by the Spirit reveals a new message for sin remission through “faith” in the blood of the new testament.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2
Grace is accessed by faith and grace is voided by works. Those who argue that water baptism is not a “righteous work” are fooling themselves. If a work is required then salvation must be earned therefore it is no longer free. Jesus said “it is finished” and those who do not have “faith” in His finished work for remission believe water baptism is required thus are still in their sins (Rom 11:6).
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Rom. 11:6
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5
We are justified by His blood and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins began with the Baptist (Mark 1:4) and continued at Pentecost (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God not a new water baptism..
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36
Paul is called and progressively receives revelations by the Spirit. Paul is the first man to teach the new message of faith in His blood for remission of sins (Rom 3:25). This message was not reveal by the Baptist or the Apostles at Pentecost and during that time water baptism was commanded for remission.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)
We can not add to the finished work of Christ for remission and it is a "gift" by grace that must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".
Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Notice that it says baptized "into Jesus" and there is no scripture where those baptized “in water” were placed into Christ. How are we to get into the body of Christ?...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)
The penalty for sin is death and Christ died for sin. We must be in His body to identify with His death and that process is an operation of God accomplished through Spirit baptism. In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are placed in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith".
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the OPERATION OF GOD who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)
This quickening or baptism by the Spirit is through faith in the words of Jesus Christ in reference to the new testament for remission of sins.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)
The flesh can profit nothing therefore water is not needed.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom. 10:9
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom. 10:10
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2
Grace is accessed by faith and grace is voided by works. Those who argue that water baptism is not a “righteous work” are fooling themselves. If a work is required then salvation must be earned therefore it is no longer free. Jesus said “it is finished” and those who do not have “faith” in His finished work for remission believe water baptism is required thus are still in their sins (Rom 11:6).
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Rom. 11:6
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5
We are justified by His blood and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins began with the Baptist (Mark 1:4) and continued at Pentecost (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God not a new water baptism..
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36
Paul is called and progressively receives revelations by the Spirit. Paul is the first man to teach the new message of faith in His blood for remission of sins (Rom 3:25). This message was not reveal by the Baptist or the Apostles at Pentecost and during that time water baptism was commanded for remission.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)
We can not add to the finished work of Christ for remission and it is a "gift" by grace that must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".
Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Notice that it says baptized "into Jesus" and there is no scripture where those baptized “in water” were placed into Christ. How are we to get into the body of Christ?...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)
The penalty for sin is death and Christ died for sin. We must be in His body to identify with His death and that process is an operation of God accomplished through Spirit baptism. In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are placed in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith".
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the OPERATION OF GOD who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)
This quickening or baptism by the Spirit is through faith in the words of Jesus Christ in reference to the new testament for remission of sins.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)
The flesh can profit nothing therefore water is not needed.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom. 10:9
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom. 10:10
Kevin
New member
Been there, done that....
Been there, done that....
Still touting the "Christ did not send me to baptize threfore water baptism is no longer necessary theory?" :down:
Let me know when you get scriptual support for this, that Christ told Paul, or any other apostles that baptism in His name was no longer necessary.
You continue to ignore the verses and context of why Paul said what he did and try to make entire gospel out if it. :shrugs:
Been there, done that....
Still touting the "Christ did not send me to baptize threfore water baptism is no longer necessary theory?" :down:
Let me know when you get scriptual support for this, that Christ told Paul, or any other apostles that baptism in His name was no longer necessary.
You continue to ignore the verses and context of why Paul said what he did and try to make entire gospel out if it. :shrugs:
HopeofGlory
New member
Re: Been there, done that....
Re: Been there, done that....
Paul clearly stated "ONE" baptism not two and no one with any understanding at all can believe water baptism and Spirit baptism are a single occurrence and thus we cannot consider them to be "ONE" baptism.
I am amazed that even though God says salvation is "freely" given, you say no way we must earn it .
Your righteous work will profit you nothing.
Re: Been there, done that....
Paul clearly stated "ONE" baptism not two and no one with any understanding at all can believe water baptism and Spirit baptism are a single occurrence and thus we cannot consider them to be "ONE" baptism.
I am amazed that even though God says salvation is "freely" given, you say no way we must earn it .
Your righteous work will profit you nothing.
RightIdea
New member
Ah, so when those Jews under the Mosaic Law were following the instructions in the book of Numbers, and were dipped in water for purification... they were just doing that for fun?
Right on, Hope. Good posts; you are right on the money. It is finished, and no righteous works are going to get someone any closer to God. NO MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW. Could Paul have said it any clearer?
This is exactly why I chose to never get baptized in water. To make a loud statement to people like Kevin, Francisco and others, who tragically try to put themselves under Law again, after they receive grace. I only wish they could truly understand that Law and Grace are mutually exclusive. They cannot coexist.
To those who have a FORM of godliness but deny the POWER of God thereof are ,like Caine always seeking to establish thier OWN rightousness rather than Gods.
and by so doing DENY GODS power to "save to the uttermost all that call upon His name"
Please do not mix MY words with others.
I do NOT say water baptism is a SYMBOL NOR do i say is it NESSCERSARY for our SALVATION.
What I HAVE said is that the SUBMISSION to the WILL OF GOD in water baptism is the SUBMITTING of the BODY to that DEATH which has ALREADY been ACCOMPLISHED and accepted on CALVARY where we "WERE crucyfied WITH Christ"
and that even as we have bowed our hearts to God we now bow our bodies as it were.
and in so doing LIKE CHrist submit our lives to God;even our bodies also and even unto death.
So we are baptised "LIKE unto His death"
If it was HIS death THAT fullfills the LAW and by so doing we have peace with God then OUR DYING IN Him in nowise saves us in that it is OUR WORK.
for we were crucyfied WITH Christ by the power of God and when we in FAITH BELIEVED God in what He said HE has DONE then that WORK OF GOD is by the Holy Spirit wrought IN US.
and the EXPRESSION OF THAT WORK which is Gods is then OPENLY acknowledged to the WORLD .
IN baptism.
For it is the FOUNDATION of our "presenting our bodies as living sacrafice which is our reasonable service"
Even as CHRIST did with HIS.
You and others seem to take a crumb of 'comfort' to the flesh thinking that by so doing you in someway WORK soemthing to your own slavation.
Here and elsewhere I have shown this is FALSE.
Kevin
New member
Hope,
Yes, he clearly did state ONE baptism, and scripture supports that its baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, because that is the baptism that was performed as a result of his teaching. Paul would not speak of ONE baptism and practice another. He practiced what he preached: baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48).
Well, define "freely". If God's salvation is truly "freely" given, then EVERYBODY would make it to heaven without any conditions. But we both know that's not true. His grace is freely given because man could never do anything to "earn" that grace. God gave it out of His love for us.
But there are conditons for that grace... believing is one of them, but obeying His commandments is another. After all, if anybody wants to know if they truly know Christ or not, they can just look at 1 John 2:3-6:
1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
It takes more than belief. Would you tell the apostle John that you are "amazed that even though God says salvation is "freely" given, you say no way we must earn it"?
Would you tell Christ in Matt. 25:41-46 that He shouldn't throw those people into Hell because of their lack of good works unto mankind? I think not.
After all, keeping His commandments is DOING something... which are WORKS. It's not the works that saves us, but it's evidence of a true faith, which is what we are saved through by the grace of God.
We are expected to follow the commandment of baptism, which is why the apostles carried out that commandment, and why we do today. After all, it is those who DO His commandments are the one who will have rights to the tree of Life (Rev. 22:14).
Yes, he clearly did state ONE baptism, and scripture supports that its baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, because that is the baptism that was performed as a result of his teaching. Paul would not speak of ONE baptism and practice another. He practiced what he preached: baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48).
Well, define "freely". If God's salvation is truly "freely" given, then EVERYBODY would make it to heaven without any conditions. But we both know that's not true. His grace is freely given because man could never do anything to "earn" that grace. God gave it out of His love for us.
But there are conditons for that grace... believing is one of them, but obeying His commandments is another. After all, if anybody wants to know if they truly know Christ or not, they can just look at 1 John 2:3-6:
1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
It takes more than belief. Would you tell the apostle John that you are "amazed that even though God says salvation is "freely" given, you say no way we must earn it"?
Would you tell Christ in Matt. 25:41-46 that He shouldn't throw those people into Hell because of their lack of good works unto mankind? I think not.
After all, keeping His commandments is DOING something... which are WORKS. It's not the works that saves us, but it's evidence of a true faith, which is what we are saved through by the grace of God.
We are expected to follow the commandment of baptism, which is why the apostles carried out that commandment, and why we do today. After all, it is those who DO His commandments are the one who will have rights to the tree of Life (Rev. 22:14).
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RightIdea
New member
And there we have it -- an explicit confession that we must follow the Law in order to have eternal life.
Kevin, you must cursed yourself, according to Paul's warning in Galatians 2:6-9. Paul said that if ANYONE, even himself or an angel, were to come preaching a gospel other than what he had brought, such a person should be accursed.
Which begs the question -- what gospel did Paul preach?
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
You say that by the works of the law, we establish our faith. But Paul said the exact opposite:
Romans 3:27-28
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, [by our faith] we establish the law.
What is the result of being under the law? If we are of the law, then what do we establish?
Romans 4:14-15
For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
So, do we have the law as Christians?
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Kevin
New member
Please address the agruments.
Please address the agruments.
RightIdea,
Where did I say we are obligated to keep the Law? Where? The commandments of Christ are to be followed, as He instructed the apostles in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20).
Do you really think that 1 John is speaking of commandments of the Mosaic Law????!!! Those who keep the commandments of the Law are endebted to the whole law, and Christ profits them nothing (Gal. 5:1-4).
1 John speaks of how to tell if we know CHRIST, by keeping HIS commandments.
Look again for yourself:
1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
The apostle John here is NOT speaking at all of keeping the deeds of the Mosaic Law, so I don't know why you are throwing verses at me that deal with the Mosaic Law when that's not what the apostle John is speaking about.
John CLEARLY says that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. It is by THIS (keeping His commmandments) that we know whether or not we are in Christ (verse 5).
Again, my arguement is further stregthened by Rev. 22:14:
Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
The commandments spoken of here are NOT the commandments of the Mosaic Law, they are the commandments of Christ, the same thing that 1John is speaking of. As it says, it is those who DO His commandments which have rights to the tree of Life.
Instead of throwing verses at me that deal with the Law, please address the agruments I have presented which are not even speaking of the Law. You haven't address any of them, not even the ones where I showed evidence that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is NOT under the Law (in a previous post).
Please address the agruments.
RightIdea,
Where did I say we are obligated to keep the Law? Where? The commandments of Christ are to be followed, as He instructed the apostles in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20).
Do you really think that 1 John is speaking of commandments of the Mosaic Law????!!! Those who keep the commandments of the Law are endebted to the whole law, and Christ profits them nothing (Gal. 5:1-4).
1 John speaks of how to tell if we know CHRIST, by keeping HIS commandments.
Look again for yourself:
1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
The apostle John here is NOT speaking at all of keeping the deeds of the Mosaic Law, so I don't know why you are throwing verses at me that deal with the Mosaic Law when that's not what the apostle John is speaking about.
John CLEARLY says that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. It is by THIS (keeping His commmandments) that we know whether or not we are in Christ (verse 5).
Again, my arguement is further stregthened by Rev. 22:14:
Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
The commandments spoken of here are NOT the commandments of the Mosaic Law, they are the commandments of Christ, the same thing that 1John is speaking of. As it says, it is those who DO His commandments which have rights to the tree of Life.
Instead of throwing verses at me that deal with the Law, please address the agruments I have presented which are not even speaking of the Law. You haven't address any of them, not even the ones where I showed evidence that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is NOT under the Law (in a previous post).
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