The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[geralduk]

It is FOOLISHNESS to say that when we are BAPTISED IN WATER that somehow we DIE! IN CHRIST.
AND FOR THAT MATTER are RAISED into new life as well.
You are believing in MAGIC!
or as ROME does concerning the LORDS supper.
For in that she believes by her RITUALS (magic?) she changes the bread and wine into the BODY and BLOOD of Christ.
I see NO difference in the thinking that we DIE or are baptised into His DEATH and raised up in His resurection then you are in effect saying that the WATER is somehow changed into what?
HOW did CHRIST DIE?
and for that matter WHEN?

To those who are still trying to LIVE or in other words have the OLD MAN DO something for HIMSLEF.
Then of course an OUTWARD from or RITUAL will seem to do the trick!
But what does the scriptures say?!

We ARE crucyfied.........................WITH ill repreat........WITH! Christ.
We enter into His DEATH by FAITH.
"For even as IN the First Adam ALL died" or by that corruption of sin made subject to death and died.
So too shall ALL men live IN the second Adam.
By not DYING?
no
We cannot LIVE In Christ if we also do not DIE in Christ.
But as Christ DIED 2000 years ago how can it not be ANYTHING else but by FAITH!?
We are SAVED by our FAITH in BELIEVEING in THAT DEATH who died for all and we IN Him died also.
For God condemned sin in the flesh and JUDGED IT oncalvary.
We by acknowledging our sin and Gods remedy for it do JUDGE oursleves as God has ALREADY and see OURSELEVES "CRUCYFIED WITH CHRIST"
Not by the WORK of the flesh BUT BY THE power of God.
For when the children of God sinned in the wilderness God sent feiry serpents among them in JUDGEMENT but as Moses onterceded for them God told Him to make a brazen serpent and hold it aloft. and all those who LOOKED UPON IT ...........LIVED!
"aS THE brazen serpent was lifted up in the wilderness so shall the Son of man be lifted up and I WILL DRAW all men unto me"
The serpent was JUDGED in the GARDEN and the brazen serpent held aloft in judgement shows that our sins are ALREADY judged. and they who LOOKED lived.
"He who knew NO sin ,BECAME sin that we THROUGH Him might become thje rightousness of God"
Therefore we BELEIVE God and are counted RIGHTOUS and LIVE even as they did.
Not by ANY work of oursleves but by the WORK ALREADY DONE!
So that WATER does not NOR CAN IT soem how put us to death!
or into HIS death.
SEEING THAT HIS DEATH was GODS work in the reconciliation of man to Himslef by the blood of HIS cross.
So that wether we at first RECOGNISE it or not when we are 'saved' we in "faith believeing" have ENTERED into that WORK of God and by GRACE God has ALREADY wrought in us what WAS wrought on calvaries rugged cross.#
For it is not the OUTWARD body that dies when we are baptised but the INWARD OLD MAN.
hOW THEN CAN water DO SUCH A WORK?!
No the WORK is already done the moment that we believe god and confess it with our mouth.
and are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH.
AND now in OBEDIENCE to the LAW of Christ (seeing that He is the WAY) what we have SUBMITTED to in our HEARTS and confessed with our mouths we do now with our BODIES not to WORK that which has already been done.
But to present our bodeies as aliving SACRAFICE to God which is our reasonable service.
and to show to the world that ALL of that which is ME IS now GODS. and for HIS service ALONE.
BAPTISED into His death but ALREADY "CRUCYFIED WITH."fOR WHAT DEATH ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
Was Christ DEAD?
and into what DEATH was HE being baptised into?
to ALL that He might FULLFILL ALL.
for it was not untill he was BAptised

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

"There are NO VERSES--ZERO,ZILCH--NO VERSES that ever say that anyone is baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST by a "water baptism"."

I've been trying to get Jerry to answer this question since October, but he only changes the subject or makes a lame sideways argument that really doesn't address my question. I'm sure you will do much better. Here is the verse my question will pertain to:

26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:

"He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth."

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

My question is: After Philip preached the Gospel to the eunuch, and the eunuch confessed Jesus, they went down into the water and Philip baptized the eunuch. If the eunuch was not baptized into Jesus Christ, what then was he baptized into?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: You haven't answered my question either...

Re: Re: You haven't answered my question either...

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart


JustAChristian,

What does it mean to believe in Jesus Christ,you ask.

The Apostle John says that he wrote his gospel "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ,the Son of God;and that believing ye might have life through His Name"(Jn.20:31).

And Scripture also reveals that it is by believing these things that a man is "born of God":

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of GOd...for whatever is born of God overcometh the world;and this is the victory that overcometh the world,EVEN OUR FAITH"(1Jn.5:1,4).

To have Bibical faith is to believe the testimony that has been given to us concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.

And belief in that testimony brings everlasting life.And that is why the "gosep" is called "the power of salvation to everyone who believeth"(Ro.1:16).

Is that so hard to understand?

It is His word concerning the Lord Jesus that saves us.We are "born of God",and that process does not involve the will of man nor does it involve the will of the flesh.

And you ask if man has a part in his salvation?

How plain do the words have to be?

Paul states that the "gospel" is "the power of God unto salvation to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVETH"(Ro.1:16).

A man has a part in his salvation,and that part is BELIEVING!

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry replys:

What does it mean to believe in Jesus Christ,you ask.

No, Jerry, that is not what I said. I said, "What does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. " It is possible to believe in Jesus but not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Muslims believe in Jesus and so do demons, but they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jerry says:

The Apostle John says that he wrote his gospel "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ,the Son of God;and that believing ye might have life through His Name"(Jn.20:31).

So, you see? There is a believing that Christ is the Son of God AND another kind of believing which terminates in one becoming born again. To be born again include having life throuth His Name.

Jerry counters with:

And Scripture also reveals that it is by believing these things that a man is "born of God":

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of GOd...for whatever is born of God overcometh the world;and this is the victory that overcometh the world,EVEN OUR FAITH"(1Jn.5:1,4).

But that is just it, Jerry! You don't believe those things that make one a child of God. You say that you become a child of God by believing Jesus is the Christ, yet the scriptures says that we are born of incorruptible seed; by the word of God. How do you correlate the two? You reasoning has nothing to do with the being born of the word of God that Peter speaks about (1 Peter 1:22-23)

Jerry replys:

To have Bibical faith is to believe the testimony that has been given to us concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.

Is it only the testimony that we are to believe? What about the commands that Jesus gave? Aren't we also suppose to believe them?

Jerry responds:

And belief in that testimony brings everlasting life.And that is why the "gosepel" is called "the power of salvation to everyone who believeth"(Ro.1:16).

Are you saying that belief in the testimony separate and apart from repentance, confession, and baptism for the remission of sin which are all commandment of Christ will put us into Christ? How, Jerry? How can we discount the very words of Jesus and then say that we believe in the testimony of Christ? You are not making sense, Jerry.

Jerryasks:

Is that so hard to understand?

On matters of obedience it is not for me Jerry, but I am not trying to dodge the issue. I want to be saved, and Jesus said we must obey His will (Heb. 5:8-9), but you want to dodge the issue. You don't believe we have to obey the will of the Lord. You only want to try to prove your doctrine. Jesus is watching, Jerry!

Jerry states:

It is His word concerning the Lord Jesus that saves us.We are "born of God",and that process does not involve the will of man nor does it involve the will of the flesh.

Isn't believing His words an act on your part, Jerry? Isn't your will a concern in the matter? Isn't this a work on your part. If not, I would like for you to explain that you have not performed a work on your part. I think that you have. I think it is a work on your part, don't you?

Jerry replys:

And you ask if man has a part in his salvation?

How plain do the words have to be?
Paul states that the "gospel" is "the power of God unto salvation to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVETH"(Ro.1:16).

A man has a part in his salvation,and that part is BELIEVING!

But you haven't explained "believing" Jerry. You make a statement but you don't explain yourself. The devils believed but do you mean then that the devils will be saved since they believed in Jesus? We what to know what brought the jailor into salvation when he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ so that what he did corolates with what everyone must do in order to be saved. You have't done this, Jerry and frankly, I don't believe you ever will.

Patiently waiting for Jerry to answer my question "What does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?",

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Kevin]

That's already been address.

That's already been address.

Freak,

Jerry good points!

"There are NO VERSES--ZERO,ZILCH--NO VERSES that ever say that anyone is baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST by a "water baptism"."

I've already shown Biblical arguments to show that water baptism in Jesus's name is what baptizes us into Christ. Care to address them?

 

[Francisco]

Kevin,

I've been trying to get one of these guys to tell me what they think the eunuch in Acts 8 was baptized into, if not Jesus Christ, for almost 5 months now. To date, I've never gotten a direct answer. Have you?

Francisco

 

[Apollos]

Birds of a feather...

Birds of a feather...

Francisco –

Good point (again) !!

When I was more active on this thread it was certainly my experience that the anti-baptists never answered certain questions.

But then chickens hate to get their feathers wet !! (Right Freak ??)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco never seems to realize that the verses he uses NEVER say a word about the eunuch being baptized INTO CHRIST at the moment that he was baptized with water.

NOT ONE WORD!!

However,if we are to BELIEVE what Scripture actually says,there is only one possible conclusion.The eunuch was baptized into the Body of Christ BY THE HOLY SPIRIT:

"For by ONE SPIRIT are we ALL baptized into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).

Why is that so difficult to understand?

We are told repeatedly that it is IN CHRIST where the Christian receives life (1Jn.5:11).

And the Lord Jesus Himself says that it is THE SPIRIT which gives life:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Those who argue that it is the "water baptism" that baptizes us into Jesus Christ around here would have us to abandon our common sense and believe that it is the "water" which gives life.

Water is a "corruptible" thing and will fade away in the eternal state.And the Holy Scriptures reveal that we are not "born again" by "corruptible" things,but instead by the WORD OF GOD:

"Being born again,not of corruptible seed,but of incorruptible,by the word of GOd,which liveth and abideth forever"(1Pet.1:23).

Those who argue that one is not born again until they are baptized with water do not seem to understand the simplest things in regard to "time sequence".

Once the sinner hears and believes the gospel of his salvation,at that very moment he is born of God.Anything done after that point in time--such as submitting to the rite of water baptism-- has nothing whatsoever to do with the born again experience.

But asking them to BELIEVE what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS is just too much to ask of these people who think that the ONE BAPTISM is not the baptism done by the Holy Spirit but instead believe that it is the one that man can perform.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak,



I've already shown Biblical arguments to show that water baptism in Jesus's name is what baptizes us into Christ. Care to address them?

Kevin,

You used arguments of man when you assert that "water baptism in Jesus´s name is what baptizes us into Christ."

You never even offered one verse that states what you merely assert.

However,I have provided Scriptual PROOF that it is by the Holy Spirit that the sinner is baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized INTO ONE BODY...THE BODY OF CHRIST"(1Cor.12:13,27).

But you just IGNORE this verse as if it does not even exist and then continue to use the "wisdom of man" in arguing that it is by the water baptism that the sinner is baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST.

Where are your Scriptures?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

You're offering another of your sideways arguments in response to my very direct and simple question.

Again, what was the eunuch baptized into, if not into Jesus Christ?

Now I will agree with you that the eunuch was baptized into Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. Even though we don't see the Holy Spirit descend on the eunuch, I believe this because of the many scriptures that promise the gift of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized.

Peter promised it to the crowd at Pentecost, 'be baptized.....; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' Note that Peter did not say be 'baptized in the Holy Spirit'.

Jesus told Nicodemus we must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. And that is what happened to the eunuch when he was baptized into Jesus Christ by Philip in the water at the side of the road.

And Jesus gaves us the example of water baptism and the receipt of the Holy Spirit through water baptism when He was baptized by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him as He came up out of the water. The Holy Spirit was physically manifested to prove what you continually deny; that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit through water baptism.

Why do you find it so hard to understand Jerry that when a person submits to water baptism they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and when that Holy Spirit descends upon the baptized person, that completes the unification of the baptized person with the Body of Christ?

Francisco

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

This is not difficult.It is the sinner who BELIEVES GOD who is justified in His sight:

"Abraham BELIEVED GOD,and it was counted to him for righteousness"(Ro.4:3).

That does not mean that the sinner can believe the EDITED version of God´s word and still be saved.The sinner must believe the word of God AS IT IS WRITTEN.You cannot add words to Scripture and then believe that edited version.That will get you nowhere.

And the unedited version could not be any plainer.The Philippian jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?"

THIS IS THE UNEDITED ANSWER:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved,and thy house"(Acts16:31).

To BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST means to believe the testimony contained in the gospel,that gospel by which the sinner is saved:

"...that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;and that He was buried,and that He rose again the third day,according to the Scriptures"(1Cor.15:3,4).

That is the gospel of our salvation,but that is not enough for you.You say that that message alone is not sufficent.You just will not believe that it is by believing the gospel,and by the gospel alone,that the sinner is saved.

The gospel is called "the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believeth"(Ro.1:16),but you just flat out deny that the gospel alone is sufficent to bring salvation to the sinner.

You refuse to believe God when He reveals through Paul that it is the gospel,and the gospel alone,by which the sinner is saved:

"I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you,which also ye have received,and in which ye stand,by which ALSO YE ARE SAVED...that Christ died for our sins,according to the Scriptures;and that He was buried,and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures"(1Cor.15:1-4).

You will not believe that the sinner is saved by the gospel,and nothing but the gospel.Even though Paul makes it as plain as possible!

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

You're offering another of your sideways arguments in response to my very direct and simple question.

Again, what was the eunuch baptized into, if not into Jesus Christ?

Now I will agree with you that the eunuch was baptized into Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. Even though we don't see the Holy Spirit descend on the eunuch, I believe this because of the many scriptures that promise the gift of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized.

Peter promised it to the crowd at Pentecost, 'be baptized.....; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' Note that Peter did not say be 'baptized in the Holy Spirit'.

Jesus told Nicodemus we must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. And that is what happened to the eunuch when he was baptized into Jesus Christ by Philip in the water at the side of the road.

And Jesus gaves us the example of water baptism and the receipt of the Holy Spirit through water baptism when He was baptized by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him as He came up out of the water. The Holy Spirit was physically manifested to prove what you continually deny; that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit through water baptism.

Why do you find it so hard to understand Jerry that when a person submits to water baptism they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and when that Holy Spirit descends upon the baptized person, that completes the unification of the baptized person with the Body of Christ?

Francisco

 

[Kevin]

Your silence speaks volumes!

Your silence speaks volumes!

Jerry,

You used arguments of man when you assert that "water baptism in Jesus´s name is what baptizes us into Christ."

On the contrary, I've shown direct biblical paralells, examples, and reasons for this arguement... and this is what you come back with? Nothing. Your lack of response to my evidence shows the error in your doctrine.

You never even offered one verse that states what you meely assert.

Did you even read my post? If you did you would see that I have provided solid biblical arguments to show this, and I've also shown biblical arguments to show that Sprit baptism is NOT what baptizes us into Christ. Your answer to those agruements? None.

However,I have provided Scriptual PROOF that it is by the Holy Spirit that the sinner is baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized INTO ONE BODY...THE BODY OF CHRIST"(1Cor.12:13,27).

And I have shown you biblical reasoning that this is not speaking of Spirit baptim as the apostles in Acts 2:4 and the Gentiles in Acts 10:44 were. Your answer to these agruements? NONE.

I have biblically shown how we are baptized by one Spirit into the body. Your answer? Nothing.

But you just IGNORE this verse as if it does not even exist and then continue to use the "wisdom of man" in arguing that it is by the water baptism that the sinner is baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST.

IGNORE? Did you really READ my post, Jerry? I "ignored" it as if it doesn't even exist? LIE. On the contrary, I addressed it, both stating your view on it and why I find error in it, and then stating my view on that verse and supporting it with Biblical evidence that validates my arguement. HOW is that ignoring that verse Jerry?

You did not address any of my arguments that I backed with scripture, not one. It is you who ignore, Jerry, not I. Your silence speaks volumes and shows correctly the fallacy of your doctrine. The truth has an answer for everything, and you have answered nothing. :down:

 

[JustAChristian]

No Water Mentioned....

No Water Mentioned....

Originally posted by Freak
Jerry good points!

"There are NO VERSES--ZERO,ZILCH--NO VERSES that ever say that anyone is baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST by a "water baptism"."

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls - Acts 2:38-41

The place that God has appointed for man to have his sins washed away is baptism. Baptism is the process of dipping, plundging, or immersing into water. The significance of this baptizing is that man has sins which need to be washed away (Acts 22:16). The flesh has nothing to do in salvation but the spirit does (1 Peter 3:21). When one is baptized he is buried with Christ into a new life (Rom. 6:3-5). This is because God has made the appointment. It is not a man made work to be baptized, but the commandment of Jesus Christ (Mark 16:15-16)
It is the point where one contacts the blood of Christ (Acts 2:39; Eph. 2:13). The apostles never debated baptism. They never expected anyone to question the act of obedience. It is like Moses who introduced Genesis saying, "In the beginning God..." He expected us to know who God is prior to reading this book. We can read the New Testament and find out what baptism is also.

They never immersed anyone into the Holy Spirit for this is not possible. Today, man must obey baptism in order to be a part of God's family. No family blessings are ever enjoyed unless one is a part of the family. The church is the family of God (Acts 2:47; 1 Tim. 3:5). Save yourselves from this crooked generation and be obedient to the will of God through (Eph 2:8-9; Heb. 5:8-9; Mark 16"15-16).

JustAChristian

 

[Kevin]

Francisco,

Kevin,

I've been trying to get one of these guys to tell me what they think the eunuch in Acts 8 was baptized into, if not Jesus Christ, for almost 5 months now. To date, I've never gotten a direct answer. Have you?

Hmmm... I don't think I've directly asked that question, but that is an excellent point, and yes, I seem to remember you asking this question long ago. Still haven't gotten an answer eh? Not surprising. :down: As I told Jerry in my earlier post, the truth has an answer for everything, and they can't seem to answer your question, which tells me that they don't have the truth, or else they could answer it. False doctrine never could answer the truth, not then, not now, not ever. The truth has an answer for everything! :up:

Keep up the good work, friend.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

The following is the correct rendering of the verse you provided in you attempt to prove that submitting to the rite of "water baptism" is necessary for salvation:

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

First,Peter spoke to ALL the Jews who were listening.He said:

"Repent" (metanoeo),an "aorist active imperative","second person PLURAL"--"you all".

Then the words that follow-"and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ"--are no longer in the "second person plural" but change to "third person singular".Becuse of this there is a syntactical break and this introduces a separate idea.

Then we can see that the following words are again in the "second person plural",so these words belong to the word "repent" and not to "repent and be baptized":

"...for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The words "ye shall receive" is in the "second person".

Therefore,the correct meaning of the verse is:

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Now when we skip the parenthesis we can plainly see the meaning of his words:

Repent for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

And that matches perfectly with what Peter said later in the same day:

"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).

If submitting to the rite of water baptism was ESSENTIAL for salvation,why did not Peter add the words "and be baptize" to his words to "repent"?

And if being baptized with water is a "condition" for salvation,along with "repentance",why do the following verses make no mention of "water baptism"?:

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name..."(Lk.24:47).

"Him hath God exalted...to give repentance to Israel,and forgiveness of sins"(Acts5:31).

And when the Philippian jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?",Paul DID NOT say,REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED,but instead said:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved"(Acts16:31).

And before Cornelius and his household had been baptized with water,they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.So ALL the evidence points to the fact that it was "repentance" that brought about the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

You have a very short memory or a reading comprehension problem. I refuted your convoluted argument about Greek syntax by posting the interpretation of about a dozen Greek speaking church fathers who interpret this verse the same way I do. I don't have to go looking for my previous post now but it should be around pages 182-186 of this thread. Do you claim to have a deeper knowledge of Greek than these church fathers whose native tongue was Greek?

Besides, even if your Greek syntax argument held any water at all (no pun intended ), it would be illogical for Peter to include 'and be baptized...' if baptism had no place with 'repent' and 'you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'. The way you place these inspired words of scripture in parans and suggest we basically ignore them is a disgrace. Why didn't Peter say 'repent, and go eat a burger at McDonald's, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'. By your demotion of the middle of the sentence, to make it fit with your theology, you are twisting the words of scripture to your own detriment and others. It's ridiculous.

If your theology was correct, you would not have to manipulate some verses to make them fit. Kevin, JustAChristian and I have no problems with this verse or that. They all fit our belief, with no manipulation, no parans, no words you have to ignore, no church history to ignore, no early fathers to refute, etc....

Francisco

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

Another thought in regard to your statement that:

And before Cornelius and his household had been baptized with water,they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.So ALL the evidence points to the fact that it was "repentance" that brought about the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It's fairly obvious that the Holy Spirit descended on Cornelius not ONLY because of their repentance, but as a sign to Peter that the Gentiles could also partake of the salvation won by Christ.

But whether you recognize that fact or not, Peter's actions after this event should give a clue to a reasonable person that baptism is absolutely necessary. Otherwise Peter wouldn't have asked for water so Cornelius and friends could immediately be baptized. Again, why didn't Peter say 'who could withhold a double cheese and pepperoni pizza from Dominoes, seeing that they received the same Holy Spirit as we did'?

Francisco

PS - Sorry about all the food analogies. It's probably obvious I'm hungry right now, waiting on my wife to return with lunch!

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Francisco
Freak,


I've been trying to get Jerry to answer this question since October, but he only changes the subject or makes a lame sideways argument that really doesn't address my question. I'm sure you will do much better. Here is the verse my question will pertain to:

26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:

"He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth."

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

My question is: After Philip preached the Gospel to the eunuch, and the eunuch confessed Jesus, they went down into the water and Philip baptized the eunuch. If the eunuch was not baptized into Jesus Christ, what then was he baptized into?

God Bless,

Francisco

I know this may sound simple but its the truth-he was baptized in some water. It was a merely symbolic act, an act of witness.

 

[Kevin]

Where is it?

Where is it?

Freak,

It was a merely symbolic act, an act of witness.

And you find this definition of baptism where in the Bible? Scripture, please.

 

[Freak]

Re: Where is it?

Re: Where is it?

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak,



And you find this definition of baptism where in the Bible? Scripture, please.

Perhaps you haven't caught on yet but the Bible is a dictionary.

We see water baptism treated throughout the New Testament as a symbolic act. According to the apostle Paul he did not come to baptize but to preach the Gospel. He made a difference between the baptism and the Gospel. It is the Gospel that saves (the life of Jesus not water).