Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
Francisco,
None of the verses you provided say that anyone was water baptized INTO Jesus Christ.
Again,you are forced into ASSUMING that that is what is happening.
Jerry, you still have not addressed my specific question about the eunuch. If he was not baptized into Jesus Christ, what then was he baptized into. This isn't an assumption on my part. Scripture does not get much clearer than the eunuch's water baptism into Jesus Christ. Take another look:
Christ Is Preached to an Ethiopian
26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:
"He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth."
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.
The fact the eunuch MUST confess belief in Jesus Christ BEFORE Philip will baptize him indicates that it is into Jesus Christ that the eunuch was water baptized. Again I ask you Jerry, what was the eunuch baptized into if not Jesus Christ?
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
On the other hand,there is no doubt that the sinner is baptized INTO the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit:
"For by one Spirit were are we all BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).
That is the ONE BAPTISM of Ephesians 4:5.
Does Paul give explicit instructions on how the Holy Spirit baptizes? Or does he NEVER explicitly instruct on how a person is baptized in the Holy Spirit, relying instead on his audience's existing understanding of baptism? He relies on their existing understanding Jerry. And that understanding of baptism is eximplified throughout the NT as water baptism. There are no examples of your 'Holy Spirit Only' baptism.
But water baptism does not conflict with your quotes above, because the Holy Spirit is conferred by water baptism, just as Jesus Himself showed us when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a dove when He came up out of the Jordan.
Water baptism doesn't conflict with the idea of 'ONE baptism' either. On the contrary, the fact that there is only ONE baptism supports the idea that water baptism is THE way we are grafted into the Body of Christ. Because there ARE specific instances of baptism being performed with water, and there are no specific instances of baptisms being performed using some other substance or method, like just the laying on of hands or like using mud for baptism, then you have no basis to claim the apostles ever performed this waterless 'Holy Spirit Only' baptism you invented.
So if baptism with water is the ONLY type of baptism specifically described, then we can be sure that was the baptism Peter spoke of in Acts 2:38 when he said those who were baptized would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.(Acts 2:38)
The Holy Spirit is conferred upon us in water baptism and we receive the Holy Spirit as we are grafted into the Body of Christ.
As you should now be able to see, the baptism Paul speaks of throughout his epistles is water baptism. But if you can still not see this Jerry, then consider this:
"12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
"(1Cor.12:12-14)
Consider the audience and purpose of these words. Paul is explaining that Jews and Greeks are both BAPTIZED into one unified body, that being Jesus Christ. Now what baptism can Paul be so assured he and his audience were all baptized into? Only one Jerry, water baptism, because that is the only baptism men can perform and the only one Paul knew his entire audience had participated in.
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
And you fail to see the difference of the two baptisms involving the Holy Spirit.In one case,it is the Lord Jesus Who is doing the baptizing,and those who are baptized by Him are baptized with the Holy Spirit for "power" (Mt.3:11;Acts1:5,8).
In the other case,it is the Holy Spirit Who is performing the baptism,and in this case it is the Holy Spirit Who baptizes us INTO Jesus Christ:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).
No, I don't fail to see anything. And what I do see is you creating a difference that doesn't exist. It IS the HOLY SPIRIT that is conferred on the one being WATER BAPTIZED. You are adding words to scripture to arrive at your preconceived notion. None of these verses say the Holy Spirit PERFORMS the baptism Jerry. You add that to the text yourself. What the verse says is simply by receiving the Holy Spirit in baptism, we are grafted into the Body of Christ. And just as the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus when He came out of the WATER, the Holy Spirit descends upon Christians when they receive water baptism.
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
It is that baptism that "saves" because it is IN THE BODY OF CHRIST where the sinner receives "life".Life is in the Son:
"And this is the ecord,that GOd hth given unto us eternal life,AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON"(1Jn.5:11).
I agree with the fact that receiving the Holy Spirit grafts us into the Body of Christ. Where we disagree is your unbiblical and baseless claim that the Holy Spirit is not conferred in water baptism.
The "baptism" by which we receive life is the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ,where there is "neither Greek nor Jew,circumcision nor uncircumcision"(Col.3:11).That fits perfectly with the following words concerning "baptism":
"For as many of you who have been BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek,there is neither bond nor free...for ye are all one IN CHRIST"(Gal.3:27,28).
I'm glad you see the value in a theological premise agreeing with scripture. The belief I hold agrees with every single verse regarding baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit, and our salvation.
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
Of course those who have not received the Holy Spirit cannot understand spiritual things and will continue to insist that it is a natural element,like ater baptism,that saves the sinner.
It would appear that you are the one lacking in answers Jerry. You've not provided a single verse that fails to coalesce with my belief that the Holy Spirit is conferred in water baptism, and therefor saves us. And you have failed to answer my question about the eunuch every time I've asked the question Jerry. All you can seem to do is reiterate your baseless claim that the eunuch wasn't baptized into Jesus Christ. Again I ask, what was the eunuch baptized into if not Jesus Christ?
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
However,for those of us who have been taught by the Holy Spirit,and hve learned to compare "spiritual things with spiritual"(1Cor.2:13),this idea is laughable.
The idea that YOU were taught BY the Holy Spirit is laughable. The idea that the apostles who performed water baptism were in error AFTER they were taught BY JESUS HIMSELF and left in the guidance of THE HOLY SPIRIT is even more laughable. LOL!
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
We know that in order for the sinner to receive his spiritual regeneration that it takes a Spiritual baptism.He is born again when he hears and believes the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.
I agree that the reception of the Holy Spirit is necessary for spiritual regeneration. The Holy Spirit is conferred in water baptism of Christians, just as the Spirit descended on Jesus when He came out of the baptismal waters.
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
The gospel,the New Testament,is described as the "ministration of the Spirit"(2Cor.3:8),and that is because it comes in the power of the Holy Spirit:
"...who have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven"(1Pet.1:12).
And this verse proves that the apostles taught with the grace provided by the Holy Spirit, the same apostles who water baptized. And this particular apostle said this in regard to water baptism:
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 3:21)[/quote]That is what water baptism is Jerry. We are pledging to lead good lives following God's will. And when we make this pledge, we receive the Holy Spirit. So, as Peter says 'Baptism... now saves you' because of the pledge of good conscience toward God that our baptism is comprised of.
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
"For our gospel came not unto you in word only,but also in power,and in the Holy Spirit"(1Thess.1:5).
The Holy Spirit can be found to exist in many things and many ways.
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
And that is why the Lord Jesus says that it is the Spirit which giveth life:
"It is the Spirit which giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).
Those who cannot compare spiritual things with spiritual say."It is the water which giveth life...The rite of water baptism that you submit to is life."
How ridiculous!
Yes, it IS the Spirit which gives life. That is why my profession of faith contains the words 'I believe in the Holy Spirit .... the giver of life...'
But what is ridiculous is the idea that God can't use substances He created to confer His Spirit. Just as Jesus used the water in the pool at Siloam to restore the blind man's sight, He can and does use the waters of baptism to confer His Spirit upon us, to heal the injuries inflicted upon our souls by the sins we commit. For you to deny God's capability to do this is what is truly ridiculous.
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
The sinner hears and believes the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and at that time the Holy Spirit baptizes him into the body of Christ,and it is IN CHRIST that he receives lie.
You're adding words again Jerry. No one, in any way, ever calls hearing the gospel a baptism of the Holy Spirit. If that were true, then everyone who heard the gospel would be baptized into Christ Jesus, and you know that's not the case. And if it were the case, then the apostles wouldn't have been baptizing everyone who just received the gospel. You're just adding to the real message to make it fit your preconceived notion born of the dimmed minds of modern men.
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
It is inconceivable that the ONE BAPTISM is the "water baptism",especially considering the fact that in order to make "water" the ONE BAPTISM one must exclude the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit.
It is inconceivable the ONE BAPTISM isn't water baptism, especially considering the fact water baptism is the only baptism the NT authors could know their audiences had definitely received.
Your entire argument seems to rest on the idea that the Holy Spirit can't have anything to do with water, particularly water that is used in our pledge to live right before God, that is baptism. You are wrong about this Jerry. Jesus used the water to heal the blind man's sight. Jesus insisted on 'washing' the feet of the apostles and said they would have no part in Him if they didn't let Him wash them. Jesus submitted to the same rite of water baptism, though He was certainly sinless and obviously WAS the Body of Christ, to demonstrate the righteous act that baptism is and to show us the reception of the Holy Spirit in baptism. Why do you have such difficulty understanding that the Holy Spirit has the ability to work through whatever and whoever He wishes? God is capable of anything Jerry, and we don't always understand God's capabilities or reasons.
To prove your claim that 'Holy Spirit Only' baptism is not water baptism, you would have to start by explaining to me what the eunuch was baptized into, if not into Jesus Christ. Then you would have to prove that the Holy Spirit, who is capable of working in and through any substance or creature in the universe, is for some reason incapable of using water baptism to come to those who believe and promise to live good lives. Then you would have to explain why the apostles who Jesus personally taught, and who received a guarantee of guidance by the Holy Spirit, could be so wrong as to insist on water baptism. Then you would have to explain why your cult is the only one to know the real meaning of baptism when the apostles could not discern it even with the instruction of Jesus Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
That looks like a daunting task Jerry.
God Bless,
Francisco
