The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
JustAChristian
New member
Wow!
Wow!
Sorry, Freak!
You need to go to the end of the line. I have seen nothing from you that hints of any discredit of my post. Baptism by immersion is for the remission of sins. It is essential for the new birth. It is neccessary to be in the family of God. It saves. It is for believers; not babies. I could go on and on! Prove one of these wrong and I have no case! On your mark-Get set-GO!
JustAChristian :angel:
Wow!
Sorry, Freak!
You need to go to the end of the line. I have seen nothing from you that hints of any discredit of my post. Baptism by immersion is for the remission of sins. It is essential for the new birth. It is neccessary to be in the family of God. It saves. It is for believers; not babies. I could go on and on! Prove one of these wrong and I have no case! On your mark-Get set-GO!
JustAChristian :angel:
Freak
New member
JustWorks,
You said: It saves.
You were referring to water baptism. That's where the problem lies. Jesus saves not water. Why do you continue month after month believe this lie that water somehow saves?. Jesus is God, He created the water. Turn to the Creator instead of the created. Focus on Jesus not water.
You said: It saves.
You were referring to water baptism. That's where the problem lies. Jesus saves not water. Why do you continue month after month believe this lie that water somehow saves?. Jesus is God, He created the water. Turn to the Creator instead of the created. Focus on Jesus not water.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
JustAChristian,
It is obvious that the people repented as a result of the words of Jonah.To say that they repented UNTO the preaching of Jonah makes no sense whatsoever.What does make sense,especilly if you will read the words in the book of Jonah,is the fact tht it was the words of Jonah that resulted in the repentance on the part of those who heard him.
So if the word "eis" can be used in that sense there,it can also be used that way in the following verse:
"I indeed baptize you with water "on account of" repentance..."(Mt.3:11).
The sinner who repented was baptized with water because of the fact that he repented.He was baptized to testify that he had repented and that repentance had brought about the forgiveness of his sins.
It is "repentance" that brings about the forgiveness of sins,as the words of Peter clearly demonstrates:
"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).
And please consider the following verse:
"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).
If we take out the parenthetical phrase,the statement of Peter reads,"Repent for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
It is obvious that the phrase "and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ" is parenthetical for the following reasons.
The verb makes a distinction between singular and plural verbs and nouns.The verb "repent" is plural and so is the pronoun "your" in the clause "for the remission of your sins" (ei aphesin ton hamartion hymon).Therefore,the verb "repent" must go with the phrase "for the remission of your sins".
On the other hand the words "be baptized" is singular,setting it off from the rest of the sentence.
And this matches what the same writer says in other places:
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations..."(Lk.24:47).
"Him hath God exalted with His right hand,to be a Prince and Savior,to give repentance to Israel,and forgiveness of sins"(Acts5:31).
So it is not the rite of water baptism that brings about the forgiveness of sins,but instead the repentance.
In His grce,--Jerry
It is obvious that the people repented as a result of the words of Jonah.To say that they repented UNTO the preaching of Jonah makes no sense whatsoever.What does make sense,especilly if you will read the words in the book of Jonah,is the fact tht it was the words of Jonah that resulted in the repentance on the part of those who heard him.
So if the word "eis" can be used in that sense there,it can also be used that way in the following verse:
"I indeed baptize you with water "on account of" repentance..."(Mt.3:11).
The sinner who repented was baptized with water because of the fact that he repented.He was baptized to testify that he had repented and that repentance had brought about the forgiveness of his sins.
It is "repentance" that brings about the forgiveness of sins,as the words of Peter clearly demonstrates:
"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).
And please consider the following verse:
"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).
If we take out the parenthetical phrase,the statement of Peter reads,"Repent for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
It is obvious that the phrase "and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ" is parenthetical for the following reasons.
The verb makes a distinction between singular and plural verbs and nouns.The verb "repent" is plural and so is the pronoun "your" in the clause "for the remission of your sins" (ei aphesin ton hamartion hymon).Therefore,the verb "repent" must go with the phrase "for the remission of your sins".
On the other hand the words "be baptized" is singular,setting it off from the rest of the sentence.
And this matches what the same writer says in other places:
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations..."(Lk.24:47).
"Him hath God exalted with His right hand,to be a Prince and Savior,to give repentance to Israel,and forgiveness of sins"(Acts5:31).
So it is not the rite of water baptism that brings about the forgiveness of sins,but instead the repentance.
In His grce,--Jerry
JustAChristian
New member
Rose Colored Glasses...
Rose Colored Glasses...
Freak,
You see! Your problem is that you don't understand or refuse to understand what I write. I have nowhere [NOOOO- WHERE] ever said that water baptism saves. I teach and believe that baptism is a part of the whole of God's plan to save man. There is the need to hear and believe the gospel, repent of sins, confess Christ as God's Son, be immersed to spiritually wash away sins, and rise to walk in newness of life. These all are clearly taught in the four accounts of the biography of Jesus Christ known as the Gospels. Read them and find what wonderful benefits come from obeying the Gospel.
JustAChristian :angel:
Rose Colored Glasses...
Freak,
You see! Your problem is that you don't understand or refuse to understand what I write. I have nowhere [NOOOO- WHERE] ever said that water baptism saves. I teach and believe that baptism is a part of the whole of God's plan to save man. There is the need to hear and believe the gospel, repent of sins, confess Christ as God's Son, be immersed to spiritually wash away sins, and rise to walk in newness of life. These all are clearly taught in the four accounts of the biography of Jesus Christ known as the Gospels. Read them and find what wonderful benefits come from obeying the Gospel.
JustAChristian :angel:
Like a rubber ball...
Like a rubber ball...
Hey Jerry -
I just wanted you to know that I was not ignoring you. I have been busy.
But I did notice you are ignoring ME !! What gives ???
At the top of page 183 I made several points and gave several scriptures in reference to HS baptism. You answered NOTHING !!
Instead you "bounce" over to some other scriptures in Ezekiel to AVOID answering the points I made. Now while there is something to learn from Ezekiel, I really think instead of this bouncing around you should ANSWER something for a change.
Now I honestly do not expect you to answer. You will probably talk yourself around my post as you typically do. OR you will find other scriptures to address. OR you will interpret the scriptures I used in my last post to you with yet other scriptures.
But I wanted you to know that I noticed you did not address the issues at hand... You avoided the situation.
This does not look good for you. Oh well.........:nono:
Like a rubber ball...
Hey Jerry -
I just wanted you to know that I was not ignoring you. I have been busy.
But I did notice you are ignoring ME !! What gives ???
At the top of page 183 I made several points and gave several scriptures in reference to HS baptism. You answered NOTHING !!
Instead you "bounce" over to some other scriptures in Ezekiel to AVOID answering the points I made. Now while there is something to learn from Ezekiel, I really think instead of this bouncing around you should ANSWER something for a change.
Now I honestly do not expect you to answer. You will probably talk yourself around my post as you typically do. OR you will find other scriptures to address. OR you will interpret the scriptures I used in my last post to you with yet other scriptures.
But I wanted you to know that I noticed you did not address the issues at hand... You avoided the situation.
This does not look good for you. Oh well.........:nono:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Apollos,
You say that I "bounce" around in my answer to you.But by your own admission the giving of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost was an event that was prophesised.
I was merely pointing out the exact prophecy and what it says.And since it does not fit your idea,you say that I am bouncing round.But instead of bouncing around I was answering the points you raised with Scripture.
It is not I who is ignoring this point,it is you.You never even answered any of the points I made.Instead,you accuse me of avoiding the issues.However,if you would have read the two posts I addressed to JustAChristian just before you entered the discussion you will find many of your answers there.Sometimes you should read what the discussion is about before you just jump in.
In His grace,--Jerry
You say that I "bounce" around in my answer to you.But by your own admission the giving of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost was an event that was prophesised.
I was merely pointing out the exact prophecy and what it says.And since it does not fit your idea,you say that I am bouncing round.But instead of bouncing around I was answering the points you raised with Scripture.
It is not I who is ignoring this point,it is you.You never even answered any of the points I made.Instead,you accuse me of avoiding the issues.However,if you would have read the two posts I addressed to JustAChristian just before you entered the discussion you will find many of your answers there.Sometimes you should read what the discussion is about before you just jump in.
In His grace,--Jerry
Last edited:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Francisco,
You might have a valid point if the words in regard to the preaching of Jonah were quoted directly rom the OT.But that is not the case.Here the words are written directly by Matthew.
And it is obvious that "eis" at Matthew 3:11 should be translated in the same manner:
"I,indeed bptize you with water "on account of" repentance.
It is a fact that it was not the "baptism" that brought about the repentance.
In His grace,--Jerry
You might have a valid point if the words in regard to the preaching of Jonah were quoted directly rom the OT.But that is not the case.Here the words are written directly by Matthew.
And it is obvious that "eis" at Matthew 3:11 should be translated in the same manner:
"I,indeed bptize you with water "on account of" repentance.
It is a fact that it was not the "baptism" that brought about the repentance.
In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Re: Rose Colored Glasses...
Re: Rose Colored Glasses...
Just read the words of JustAChristian:
"I have nowhere [NOOOO-WHERE] ever said that baptism saves."
O really?
Allow me to quote his words from the previous page:
"Peter plainly says that baptism saves...He preached baptism in Acts2,and said it is us unto the forgiveness of sins (Acts2:38).Then,when one is baptized in order to have their sins forgiven,then it is the same as being saved."(11-20-2002 10:58 AM)
You can judge for your self if it is true that he NOOOO-WHERE said that baptism saves.
And the very next day he said it again:
"Baptism by immersion is for the remission of sins.It is essential for the new birth.It is necessary to be in the family of God.It saves."(11-21-2002 8:24AM).
He gets so use to "twisting" the words of Scriptures that he can even "twist" his own words without even realizing that that is what he is doing.
In His grace,--Jerry
Re: Rose Colored Glasses...
Just read the words of JustAChristian:
"I have nowhere [NOOOO-WHERE] ever said that baptism saves."
O really?
Allow me to quote his words from the previous page:
"Peter plainly says that baptism saves...He preached baptism in Acts2,and said it is us unto the forgiveness of sins (Acts2:38).Then,when one is baptized in order to have their sins forgiven,then it is the same as being saved."(11-20-2002 10:58 AM)
You can judge for your self if it is true that he NOOOO-WHERE said that baptism saves.
And the very next day he said it again:
"Baptism by immersion is for the remission of sins.It is essential for the new birth.It is necessary to be in the family of God.It saves."(11-21-2002 8:24AM).
He gets so use to "twisting" the words of Scriptures that he can even "twist" his own words without even realizing that that is what he is doing.
In His grace,--Jerry
Is that why you can't find even one single instance of "eis" being translated that way in the NT???
Or is it because "eis" is being used as a preposition in the accusative case, meaning it is used to speak of something to come and therefor should be translated "for unto, into, in order to", as JustAChristian already pointed out?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are you saying that it was submitting to the rite of water baptism that brought about "repentance"?
Do you not realize that the "repentance" comes before the baptism.Peter did not say,Be baptized,and then repent"!
Here are his words:
"Repent (and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins..."(Acts2:38).
So it can plainly be seen that the baptism was "on account of " repentance.
If we are to believe you,then we must believe that submitting to the rite of water baptism was to precede the "repentance",and that makes no sense whatsoever.
And we can see that "eis" was also translated as "on account of" by both Matthew and Luke at other places (Mt.12:41;Lk.11:32).
In His grace,--Jerry
Do you not realize that the "repentance" comes before the baptism.Peter did not say,Be baptized,and then repent"!
Here are his words:
"Repent (and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins..."(Acts2:38).
So it can plainly be seen that the baptism was "on account of " repentance.
If we are to believe you,then we must believe that submitting to the rite of water baptism was to precede the "repentance",and that makes no sense whatsoever.
And we can see that "eis" was also translated as "on account of" by both Matthew and Luke at other places (Mt.12:41;Lk.11:32).
In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry,
And as Paul says in Romans 6, we that were baptized into Jesus death, were united with Him in the death that freed us from sin:
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Paul goes on to explain that it was Jesus' death that defeated sin, and that by entering into His death through our baptism, we can enter into the same rewards because we too are then dead to sin. See Jerry, after we repent, when we are united together with Jesus THROUGH BAPTISM, our old sinful self is crucified with Him so that our sins are done away with and we are no longer slaves of sin. So, just as we've been saying, baptism is FOR the remission of sin, not BECAUSE of repentance.
All joking aside, and setting aside our argument as to the proper translation of 'eis', we should not ignore the primary particle 'kai', translated in Acts 2:38 as 'and'. 'Kai' has a cumulative force here, joining together 'repentance' and 'baptism'. It has the same effect in Mark 16:16 where Jesus says 'He who believes and is baptized will be saved'.
And now setting both 'eis' and 'kai' arguments aside, if we are to believe you, then we must believe every reference made to baptism in conjunction with salvation or the remission of sins was a mistake on the authors part, or just an unnecessary afterthought. And we are required to believe this in the face of the numerous instances in scripture of new believers being immediately baptized, and the focus that is put upon immediate baptism, like the baptism of the eunuch by Philip immediately upon the eunuch's confession of faith, or the importance Peter gives to immediate water baptism even after he sees the Holy Spirit has already descended upon Cornelius. We must believe that Jesus made the same mistake when His last command to the apostles before His ascension was to teach AND BAPTIZE. And we must also believe that even though baptism isn't necessary, none of the NT authors were ever inspired to just say 'repentance is all that's necessary' or 'baptism is only a symbol' and that the Holy Spirit didn't really have a reason for inspiring these authors to combine mentions of baptism with discussions of salvation and remission of sins.
Sorry Jerry, I must remain with the majority of Christendom on this one. Your 'eis' argument is way too thin to stand up to the mountain of evidence in favor of the necessity and importance of baptism.
God Bless,
Francisco
No. I'm saying exactly what Peter said, that repentance AND baptism are for the remission of sin.
And as Paul says in Romans 6, we that were baptized into Jesus death, were united with Him in the death that freed us from sin:
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Paul goes on to explain that it was Jesus' death that defeated sin, and that by entering into His death through our baptism, we can enter into the same rewards because we too are then dead to sin. See Jerry, after we repent, when we are united together with Jesus THROUGH BAPTISM, our old sinful self is crucified with Him so that our sins are done away with and we are no longer slaves of sin. So, just as we've been saying, baptism is FOR the remission of sin, not BECAUSE of repentance.
Yes, I realize that, as I said above 'after we repent, when we are united together with Jesus through baptism, our old sinful self is crucified with Him so that our sins are done away with and we are no longer slaves of sin.'
No it can't. The fact that repentence is a prerequisite to baptism no more excludes the necessity of baptism, than baptism into Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins excludes the need for repentance. BOTH are required Jerry, and that's probably why Peter said 'AND be baptized...' rather than just saying 'repent and you're saved.'
Stop trying to be obstinate Jerry, you know I've never said baptism comes before repentance. I've continuously maintained the same postition held for the past 2,000 years by the large majority of Christians, that repentance and baptism are both necessary.
Actually, I'm certain neither Matthew or Luke translated 'eis' anywhere, unless they translated their own Greek writings into maybe Aramaic or Hebrew, but English did not exist at that time.
All joking aside, and setting aside our argument as to the proper translation of 'eis', we should not ignore the primary particle 'kai', translated in Acts 2:38 as 'and'. 'Kai' has a cumulative force here, joining together 'repentance' and 'baptism'. It has the same effect in Mark 16:16 where Jesus says 'He who believes and is baptized will be saved'.
And now setting both 'eis' and 'kai' arguments aside, if we are to believe you, then we must believe every reference made to baptism in conjunction with salvation or the remission of sins was a mistake on the authors part, or just an unnecessary afterthought. And we are required to believe this in the face of the numerous instances in scripture of new believers being immediately baptized, and the focus that is put upon immediate baptism, like the baptism of the eunuch by Philip immediately upon the eunuch's confession of faith, or the importance Peter gives to immediate water baptism even after he sees the Holy Spirit has already descended upon Cornelius. We must believe that Jesus made the same mistake when His last command to the apostles before His ascension was to teach AND BAPTIZE. And we must also believe that even though baptism isn't necessary, none of the NT authors were ever inspired to just say 'repentance is all that's necessary' or 'baptism is only a symbol' and that the Holy Spirit didn't really have a reason for inspiring these authors to combine mentions of baptism with discussions of salvation and remission of sins.
Sorry Jerry, I must remain with the majority of Christendom on this one. Your 'eis' argument is way too thin to stand up to the mountain of evidence in favor of the necessity and importance of baptism.
God Bless,
Francisco
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Francisco,
You are in error when you use Romans 6:3 to say that it is by submitting to the rite of "water baptism" that one is baptized into His death.
Of course,since you place your beliefs in what the church at Rome says regardless of what the Scriptures say,I am sure that you will not even consider what I will say.But perhaps there are others who will read this and will not be lead astray by your false teaching.
"Know ye not that,as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death"(Ro.6:3).
The ONLY baptism which speaks of being BAPTIZED into Jesus Christ is the baptism that is of the Holy Spirit:
"For by one Spirit are we all BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY...THE BODY OF CHRIST"(1Cor.12:13,27).
It is by the Spirit that we receive life.When we are baptized into the body of Jesus Christ we receive a life IN JESUS CHRIST that will never end:
"And this is the record,that God hath given unto us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).
There is not even one verse that ever says that anyone is baptized into Jesus Christ by submitting to a rite of water baptism.That is an dea that cannot be supported by Scripture and an idea held by those who cannot seem to understand Spiritual things.
They seem to place their faith in what the "majority of Christendom" believes.
However,Scripture tells us that at the present time there is only one baptism (Eph.4:5),and for those of us who can understand SPIRITUAL things,it is obvious that the one baptism is the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit whereby the sinner is baptized into the body of Christ.
It is inconceivable to us who have received the teaching of the Holy Spirit (1Cor.2:13) that anyone would ever say that the baptism performed by man is the one baptism but the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit is not!
It is not "water" which gives life,but instead it is the Spirit:
"The Spirit giveth life"(2Cor.3:6).
In His grace,--Jerry
You are in error when you use Romans 6:3 to say that it is by submitting to the rite of "water baptism" that one is baptized into His death.
Of course,since you place your beliefs in what the church at Rome says regardless of what the Scriptures say,I am sure that you will not even consider what I will say.But perhaps there are others who will read this and will not be lead astray by your false teaching.
"Know ye not that,as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death"(Ro.6:3).
The ONLY baptism which speaks of being BAPTIZED into Jesus Christ is the baptism that is of the Holy Spirit:
"For by one Spirit are we all BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY...THE BODY OF CHRIST"(1Cor.12:13,27).
It is by the Spirit that we receive life.When we are baptized into the body of Jesus Christ we receive a life IN JESUS CHRIST that will never end:
"And this is the record,that God hath given unto us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).
There is not even one verse that ever says that anyone is baptized into Jesus Christ by submitting to a rite of water baptism.That is an dea that cannot be supported by Scripture and an idea held by those who cannot seem to understand Spiritual things.
They seem to place their faith in what the "majority of Christendom" believes.
However,Scripture tells us that at the present time there is only one baptism (Eph.4:5),and for those of us who can understand SPIRITUAL things,it is obvious that the one baptism is the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit whereby the sinner is baptized into the body of Christ.
It is inconceivable to us who have received the teaching of the Holy Spirit (1Cor.2:13) that anyone would ever say that the baptism performed by man is the one baptism but the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit is not!
It is not "water" which gives life,but instead it is the Spirit:
"The Spirit giveth life"(2Cor.3:6).
In His grace,--Jerry
JustAChristian
New member
Re: Re: Rose Colored Glasses...
Re: Re: Rose Colored Glasses...
Everyone! Look How Jerry Has MISQUOTED Me!
If you need to, go back and see what I said to Freak if you think I have not properly copied from that post .
:doh: You see Jerry? Do you see how you have misquoted me? I said I had never said WATER BAPTISM SAVES. You have conveniently misquoted me saying that I had never said BAPTISM SAVES. Of course Baptism Saves because the bible says it saves ( 1 Peter 3:19-21). I want you to apologize to me and the rest of this thread for misquoting me at what I said!
JustAChristian :angel:
Re: Re: Rose Colored Glasses...
Everyone! Look How Jerry Has MISQUOTED Me!
If you need to, go back and see what I said to Freak if you think I have not properly copied from that post .
:doh: You see Jerry? Do you see how you have misquoted me? I said I had never said WATER BAPTISM SAVES. You have conveniently misquoted me saying that I had never said BAPTISM SAVES. Of course Baptism Saves because the bible says it saves ( 1 Peter 3:19-21). I want you to apologize to me and the rest of this thread for misquoting me at what I said!
JustAChristian :angel:
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
Yes, We Are Saved By Baptism.
Yes, We Are Saved By Baptism.
As we consider the doctrine of baptism we learn that baptism has a scriptural design or purpose. One of the creed books quoted from, The Standard Manual For Baptist Churches, stated loud and clear that "baptism is not essential to salvation." But Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). Now Jesus is the Savior, and I suppose he ought to know whom he will save. Who shall be saved, Christ? "He" shall be saved. What "he" is it that shall be saved? Just any old "he?" No! No! Well, what "he" is it that shall be saved? The "he" that believeth and is baptized is the "he" that shall be saved. This isn't "justification by faith only," nor does it sound as if baptism is non-essential to salvation. Friends, you can plainly see that baptism has a scriptural design. Baptism is for the purpose of salvation to the obedient believer, so says Jesus. Apostle Peter said, "... baptism doth also now save us ..." (1 Pet. 3:20,21). Just how important, or necessary, or essential is baptism? "Baptism doth also now save us ..." This is the scriptural design or purpose of baptism. At the point of one's obedience to the Lord's command to be baptized, God Almighty applies the blood of Jesus Christ to that person's soul and he is saved by the blood of Christ. Thus, "Baptism doth also now save us ..."
Again, the inspired apostle Peter stated, "... Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:36-38). What is baptism designed for? Baptism is for the remission of sins. Don't allow anybody to make you believe that baptism is non-essential; or make you believe that you are saved before you are baptized and that you are to be baptized because you are already saved as an outward sign of your inward grace. This is the doctrine of men and it is vain and leads men from the truth (Matt. 15:7-14; Titus 1:14).
Men teach that the preposition "for" in Acts 2:38 means "because of." So, man is to be baptized "for" -- because his sins are already forgiven. I want us to observe two prepositions from two different passages which come from the same Greek word and they both mean the same thing in both passages. "For this is my blood of the new testament, which was shed for many for (Greek: eis], unto, in order to) the remission of sins ..." (Matt. 26:28). I believe that every student of the Bible recognizes the fact that Jesus shed his blood that we might have or obtain forgiveness of sins. He did not die because our sins were already remitted or forgiven, but he shed his blood "for" (Greek: eis], unto) the remission of our sins. He suffered an agonizing death on the cruel tree of the cross that we might be saved (Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 John 2:1,2).
"... Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for (Greek: eis], unto, in order to) the remission of our sins ..." (Acts 2:38). The preposition "for" (Greek: eis]) in this passage means the same as it does in Matt. 26:28. Both prepositions in both passages mean unto or in order to. Therefore, one must repent and be baptized "unto, or, in order to" the forgiveness of sins. So, we learn that baptism is scripturally designed for the forgiveness of sins.
Next, I want us to consider this passage of scripture very carefully and we'll be able to see the importance, the essentiality, the scriptural design of baptism. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:26,27; Rom. 6:3,4). Emphasis is placed on the phrase "baptized into Christ." The Bible teaches that salvation is "in Christ Jesus ..." (2 Tim. 2:10). The phrase "in Christ Jesus" is a Greek Locative statement, informing us as to where salvation is located. Where is salvation located? Salvation is located in Christ Jesus. The fact that salvation is located "in" Christ, and the fact that one is baptized "into" Christ is positive proof that baptism is essential to salvation. If not, why not? Baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16). We are baptized into the body, the church (1 Cor. 12:12,13; Eph. 1:22,23; Eph. 4:4; 1 Cor. 12:20,27). Baptism is associated with the new birth and regeneration (John 3:3-5; Titus 3:5).
JustAChristian
Yes, We Are Saved By Baptism.
As we consider the doctrine of baptism we learn that baptism has a scriptural design or purpose. One of the creed books quoted from, The Standard Manual For Baptist Churches, stated loud and clear that "baptism is not essential to salvation." But Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). Now Jesus is the Savior, and I suppose he ought to know whom he will save. Who shall be saved, Christ? "He" shall be saved. What "he" is it that shall be saved? Just any old "he?" No! No! Well, what "he" is it that shall be saved? The "he" that believeth and is baptized is the "he" that shall be saved. This isn't "justification by faith only," nor does it sound as if baptism is non-essential to salvation. Friends, you can plainly see that baptism has a scriptural design. Baptism is for the purpose of salvation to the obedient believer, so says Jesus. Apostle Peter said, "... baptism doth also now save us ..." (1 Pet. 3:20,21). Just how important, or necessary, or essential is baptism? "Baptism doth also now save us ..." This is the scriptural design or purpose of baptism. At the point of one's obedience to the Lord's command to be baptized, God Almighty applies the blood of Jesus Christ to that person's soul and he is saved by the blood of Christ. Thus, "Baptism doth also now save us ..."
Again, the inspired apostle Peter stated, "... Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:36-38). What is baptism designed for? Baptism is for the remission of sins. Don't allow anybody to make you believe that baptism is non-essential; or make you believe that you are saved before you are baptized and that you are to be baptized because you are already saved as an outward sign of your inward grace. This is the doctrine of men and it is vain and leads men from the truth (Matt. 15:7-14; Titus 1:14).
Men teach that the preposition "for" in Acts 2:38 means "because of." So, man is to be baptized "for" -- because his sins are already forgiven. I want us to observe two prepositions from two different passages which come from the same Greek word and they both mean the same thing in both passages. "For this is my blood of the new testament, which was shed for many for (Greek: eis], unto, in order to) the remission of sins ..." (Matt. 26:28). I believe that every student of the Bible recognizes the fact that Jesus shed his blood that we might have or obtain forgiveness of sins. He did not die because our sins were already remitted or forgiven, but he shed his blood "for" (Greek: eis], unto) the remission of our sins. He suffered an agonizing death on the cruel tree of the cross that we might be saved (Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 John 2:1,2).
"... Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for (Greek: eis], unto, in order to) the remission of our sins ..." (Acts 2:38). The preposition "for" (Greek: eis]) in this passage means the same as it does in Matt. 26:28. Both prepositions in both passages mean unto or in order to. Therefore, one must repent and be baptized "unto, or, in order to" the forgiveness of sins. So, we learn that baptism is scripturally designed for the forgiveness of sins.
Next, I want us to consider this passage of scripture very carefully and we'll be able to see the importance, the essentiality, the scriptural design of baptism. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:26,27; Rom. 6:3,4). Emphasis is placed on the phrase "baptized into Christ." The Bible teaches that salvation is "in Christ Jesus ..." (2 Tim. 2:10). The phrase "in Christ Jesus" is a Greek Locative statement, informing us as to where salvation is located. Where is salvation located? Salvation is located in Christ Jesus. The fact that salvation is located "in" Christ, and the fact that one is baptized "into" Christ is positive proof that baptism is essential to salvation. If not, why not? Baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16). We are baptized into the body, the church (1 Cor. 12:12,13; Eph. 1:22,23; Eph. 4:4; 1 Cor. 12:20,27). Baptism is associated with the new birth and regeneration (John 3:3-5; Titus 3:5).
JustAChristian
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
No, I have not lied!
No, I have not lied!
Freak,
When I sent you an earlier post telling you that Nowhere have I said water baptism saves, youi didn't even respond! Now you want to try to put me on the defensive like your cohort Jerry by trying to say that I have lied. Same! shame! It has always been my teaching that one is saved by obedience to baptism. That baptism must be the baptism of immersion in water for the remission of sins. I have constantly delivered the fact that I do not teach or believe that the water saves. Baptism is part of God's plan for redemption. Peter preached, "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38). Why don't you and Jerry accept what the bible says and quit trying to dodge the obvious issue that baptism saves. If you don't, you better start thinking up a good answer when you meet Jesus in judgment!
JustAChristian :angel:
No, I have not lied!
Freak,
When I sent you an earlier post telling you that Nowhere have I said water baptism saves, youi didn't even respond! Now you want to try to put me on the defensive like your cohort Jerry by trying to say that I have lied. Same! shame! It has always been my teaching that one is saved by obedience to baptism. That baptism must be the baptism of immersion in water for the remission of sins. I have constantly delivered the fact that I do not teach or believe that the water saves. Baptism is part of God's plan for redemption. Peter preached, "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38). Why don't you and Jerry accept what the bible says and quit trying to dodge the obvious issue that baptism saves. If you don't, you better start thinking up a good answer when you meet Jesus in judgment!
JustAChristian :angel:
Jerry,
You are the one in error here. You are making several false assumptions here:
1. That water baptism doesn't involve the Holy Spirit
2. That the baptism Paul speaks of in Romans 6 is not water baptism
3. That scripture doesn't give any instances of someone being baptized into Jesus Christ through water baptism
Let's look at these assumptions of your's one at a time:
1. Water baptism is most certainly not merely a symbol. Symbolism is definitely involved in any ceremony, but water baptism is not ONLY a symbol. According to scripture, those who receive water baptism will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.(Acts 2:38)
If you argue that Peter was not speaking of 'water' baptism in this verse, I would ask you to show me some other type of baptism in which a person can participate of their own volition. Peter is telling them to repent and be baptized in Jesus' name. If Peter were speaking of 'Holy Spirit' baptism it wouldn't make any sense for him to tell the people to go DO this. And scripture tells us those who accepted Peter's message were baptized. Unless you can give an example of some other type of baptism that man can perform, or participate in of their own volition, this had to be 'water' baptism. And as Peter says in the verse above, those who received this baptism of which he spoke would 'receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This shows your first assumption, that water baptism doesn't involve the Holy Spirit, is wrong.
2. The biggest problem I see with your second assumption, that Paul is speaking of a waterless 'Holy Spirit Only' baptism, is again the fact that man cannot by his own will make the Holy Spirit descend upon them as He descended on Cornelius, for example. If Paul's words were only addressed to those who received your 'Holy Spirit Only' baptism, his audience would be extremely small and probably not appropriate for inclusion in his general letter addressed to all Christians in Rome. The only baptism Paul could be sure his audience had received was water baptism, so he had to have been speaking of water baptism in Romans or he would not have addressed the letter to Roman Christians in general. He would have addressed his words, particularly in chapter 6, to those who had received this 'Holy Spirit Only' baptism. If you argue that this 'Holy Spirit Only' baptism comes from merely hearing the gospel message, why then would the apostles have performed water baptism for new believers immediately after preaching the word? There would have been no need for the water baptisms performed so often by the apostles and Jesus' other disciples.
And why didn't Paul or the other NT authors ever specifically state that the baptism they constantly referred to was not 'water' baptism? Even the words of John the Baptist in Mark 1 do not say that the baptism Jesus will baptize us
with didn't involve water. You are just assuming that the baptism by the holy spirit that the Baptist speaks of does not involve water. In fact, no one ever differentiates between water baptism and 'Holy Spirit Only' baptism specifically.
So your assumption that Paul was speaking of a waterless 'Holy Spirit Only' baptism has no basis.
3. And your third assumption, 'There is not even one verse that ever says that anyone is baptized into Jesus Christ by submitting to a rite of water baptism' is just a refusal on your part to acknowledge and accept the very clear and plain words of scripture. Every time we've ever debated this subject I have posted the same reply and you have never been able to refute me. You know why? Because you can't successfully refute the truth! So for anyone who may read this post I will post the same verses again, but I expect no answer from you on this Jerry.
Christ Is Preached to an Ethiopian
26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:
"He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth."
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.
The question I've asked Jerry about these verses is what, if not Jesus Christ, is the eunuch being baptized into? As Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch they approach water, the eunuch asks if he can be baptized. At this point, what is the eunuch asking to be baptized for? Then Philip answers that the eunuch could be baptized 'If you believe with all your heart, you may'. Then the eunuch confesses faith in Jesus Christ, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God'. Then they go down into the water and Philip baptizes the eunuch. So what did the eunuch get baptized into, because of, for, if not Jesus Christ?
As most of us can see, your third assumption is also proven wrong, Jerry. I'm afraid your argument remains as thin as before.
Jerry, we've already tested the veracity of your statement about lack of scriptural support for water baptism, and everyone can see your statement was wrong. I don't know if this is from your misunderstanding of scripture or an obstinate refusal to accept the plain words of scripture as truth, but you do seem to want to hold beliefs different from the "majority of Christendom". Is that because you think the majority must be wrong because they are the majority, or have you never considered that the majority of Christians could possibly be correct, by the grace of God? I don't understand why you have this 'the majority must be wrong' attitude, but we all know an attitude like that is NOT born of a desire for the truth.
God Bless,
Francisco