Evangelion
New member
Kevin - Indeed. 
:up:
:up:
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The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
Not for salvation? Well then would you explain why the people spoken of in Matt. 25:41-46 were thrown into Hell for not obeying Jesus's commandments? It was certainly a salvation issue to them.
Or what about 1John 2:4? Are you ready to defend the assertion that liars will go to heaven? Are you ready to defend the assertion that people who don't have the truth will go to heaven as well?
Paul making a comparison on how there was a righteous remnant of Jews in the days of the prophet Elijah (verses 1-4), and how there is a righteous remnant in his (Paul's) day (verses 5-6).
In verse 6, Paul is driving home the point that they are under grace, not under works of the Mosaic Law. This is amplified by "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works;...". For he who works is entitled to keep the whole law, in which case they are not under grace. If you keep the Law of Moses, then it's not grace. Doesn't your Bible reference this verse to Romans 4:4, which is what you tried to use last time to show that we don't need to obey the commandments of Christ? These verses do nothing to show that our obedience is not necessary for salvation (keeping His commandments).
Again, I await your explanation as to how those people (Matt. 25) were thrown into Hell on account of their lack of works, if keeping Christ's commandments are not necessary for salvation. Also, I can't wait to hear your explanation on how people who are liars and don't have the truth, will enter heaven.
Not for salvation? Well then would you explain why the people spoken of in Matt. 25:41-46 were thrown into Hell for not obeying Jesus's commandments? It was certainly a salvation issue to them.
Or what about 1John 2:4? Are you ready to defend the assertion that liars will go to heaven? Are you ready to defend the assertion that people who don't have the truth will go to heaven as well?
Paul making a comparison on how there was a righteous remnant of Jews in the days of the prophet Elijah (verses 1-4), and how there is a righteous remnant in his (Paul's) day (verses 5-6).
In verse 6, Paul is driving home the point that they are under grace, not under works of the Mosaic Law. This is amplified by "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works;...". For he who works is entitled to keep the whole law, in which case they are not under grace. If you keep the Law of Moses, then it's not grace. Doesn't your Bible reference this verse to Romans 4:4, which is what you tried to use last time to show that we don't need to obey the commandments of Christ? These verses do nothing to show that our obedience is not necessary for salvation (keeping His commandments).
Again, I await your explanation as to how those people (Matt. 25) were thrown into Hell on account of their lack of works, if keeping Christ's commandments are not necessary for salvation. Also, I can't wait to hear your explanation on how people who are liars and don't have the truth, will enter heaven.
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elected4ever
New member
What commandments,Keven?
c.moore
New member
Quote Kevin
Do agree with me that those verses are all refering to man keeping the commandmetns of Christ?
quopte c.moore
I do agree those scripture say we should do them "but" not for salvation!
Quote Kevin
Not for salvation? Well then would you explain why the people spoken of in Matt. 25:41-46 were thrown into Hell for not obeying Jesus's commandments? It was certainly a salvation issue to them.
Quote c.moore
First of all in matt 25 JESUS WAS SPEAKING SO I guest he wasn`t crucified yet , so those people still had to obey the laws and do works, that was a salvation for them
Them and us are two different group you know Kevin unless you have another different interpretation again.
But we are saved by the grace without works Romans 11:6(Paul)
Quote Kevin
Or what about 1John 2:4? Are you ready to defend the assertion that liars will go to heaven? Are you ready to defend the assertion that people who don't have the truth will go to heaven as well?
Quote c.moore
1Jo:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo:2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo:2:6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
First of all there is no mention of heaven in this verse only the verse is saying either they have Jesus as thier personal savior and know Jesus and put thier faith in him or they lie by not trusting and of course when you don`t trust somebody and have faith in them you won`t do any thing for them like obey or do commandments.
So we are back where I said the fact either we trust Jesus and know Him or we don`t ,but again there is no qualifications of commandments of works in this verse.
If we have Jesus in us we obey and do the commands only because it is our christian walk following Jesus according to verse 6.
A good example is like when I go join a body building sport club and sign up ,I am instantly a member, and a body builder,so is when we accept Jesus in our heart it the same according to Rom 10:9 and if I sign up of couse I will train my muscles and work out ,and after a while people will see that I am a body builder,"but " the thing that made me a body builder is the contract I signed and became a member.
Now there is many body builder but all can`t left the same wieght,so is by us Kevin we have a different measure of faith according to Ro:12:3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
if I want to stay in good shape I should train and please myself by obeying all the rules I can to build up my body, so I do this the same by reading the Word of God this is also my training and build up my soul,but I train by studying and doing what the spirit waht me to do so I can be a good son or in the natural a good body builder.
There is also bad body builder who put on the training suit and oil on thier body and they don`t train , they will be weak body builders or weak christian that say and brag they train everyday but nothing to show,"but" they still signed up and they are members of the club so They still allowed to come train if they want and they should train as sucessful body builders.
WE have those people who just maybe stand in the lobby and have on the training suit, and towel on thier knecks but they are not members of any club and they are not even written in any registration list or have a contract, but they say they are body builders because they maybe stand in front of the studio or come once a while as an guest , this is a liar
But what the salvation message Kevin is that we offer people just to accept the free contract,and become a member of the Kingdom of God like we sign in a body builder club we get our name in the book of Life by accepting and trusting Jesus as our personal savior, knowing Him day by day by doing day by day training, and we train by the relatioship with Him and having faith in the bible, and after doing this we can use the power God has given us to raise the dead like Wiggle Worth has done because he was a professional spiritual builder,or like Benny Hinn who is another great spiritual builder or like a body builder.
Yes there is alot of weak body builders who do no work and they don`t look good and they will never get a reward for thier body like those who train , but they are still members, and as long as they come, and want to build up thier muscle, and they ask for help and even start lefting 1 pound wieghts they are accepted by the club as members, so is it for the weak christians that do hardly nothing for themselves but at least they try and ask for help and if thier best is reaching 5 pounds this is accepted by God.
We do have people thAT Join a club and then cancel thier contrat, and don`t want to continue, and they reject being a body builder or reject trust and being a christian any more then they lose thier membership, and a christian loses thier salvation, that why I don`t believe completely on OSAS.
But Kevein to say just because a weak christian doesn`t do works or training and they still have a membership or contract is not saved untill they are great body builder is for me wrong information, and wrong teaching.
I am not calling you A liar, it just wrong information, and teaching.
I hope this was a good example for all the water baptism people , because water baptism is trying to work out in a body building studio without having a membership first.
I hope I anaswered you question ok on Matt 25.
Be Blessed
Do agree with me that those verses are all refering to man keeping the commandmetns of Christ?
quopte c.moore
I do agree those scripture say we should do them "but" not for salvation!
Quote Kevin
Not for salvation? Well then would you explain why the people spoken of in Matt. 25:41-46 were thrown into Hell for not obeying Jesus's commandments? It was certainly a salvation issue to them.
Quote c.moore
First of all in matt 25 JESUS WAS SPEAKING SO I guest he wasn`t crucified yet , so those people still had to obey the laws and do works, that was a salvation for them
Them and us are two different group you know Kevin unless you have another different interpretation again.
But we are saved by the grace without works Romans 11:6(Paul)
Quote Kevin
Or what about 1John 2:4? Are you ready to defend the assertion that liars will go to heaven? Are you ready to defend the assertion that people who don't have the truth will go to heaven as well?
Quote c.moore
1Jo:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo:2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo:2:6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
First of all there is no mention of heaven in this verse only the verse is saying either they have Jesus as thier personal savior and know Jesus and put thier faith in him or they lie by not trusting and of course when you don`t trust somebody and have faith in them you won`t do any thing for them like obey or do commandments.
So we are back where I said the fact either we trust Jesus and know Him or we don`t ,but again there is no qualifications of commandments of works in this verse.
If we have Jesus in us we obey and do the commands only because it is our christian walk following Jesus according to verse 6.
A good example is like when I go join a body building sport club and sign up ,I am instantly a member, and a body builder,so is when we accept Jesus in our heart it the same according to Rom 10:9 and if I sign up of couse I will train my muscles and work out ,and after a while people will see that I am a body builder,"but " the thing that made me a body builder is the contract I signed and became a member.
Now there is many body builder but all can`t left the same wieght,so is by us Kevin we have a different measure of faith according to Ro:12:3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
if I want to stay in good shape I should train and please myself by obeying all the rules I can to build up my body, so I do this the same by reading the Word of God this is also my training and build up my soul,but I train by studying and doing what the spirit waht me to do so I can be a good son or in the natural a good body builder.
There is also bad body builder who put on the training suit and oil on thier body and they don`t train , they will be weak body builders or weak christian that say and brag they train everyday but nothing to show,"but" they still signed up and they are members of the club so They still allowed to come train if they want and they should train as sucessful body builders.
WE have those people who just maybe stand in the lobby and have on the training suit, and towel on thier knecks but they are not members of any club and they are not even written in any registration list or have a contract, but they say they are body builders because they maybe stand in front of the studio or come once a while as an guest , this is a liar
But what the salvation message Kevin is that we offer people just to accept the free contract,and become a member of the Kingdom of God like we sign in a body builder club we get our name in the book of Life by accepting and trusting Jesus as our personal savior, knowing Him day by day by doing day by day training, and we train by the relatioship with Him and having faith in the bible, and after doing this we can use the power God has given us to raise the dead like Wiggle Worth has done because he was a professional spiritual builder,or like Benny Hinn who is another great spiritual builder or like a body builder.
Yes there is alot of weak body builders who do no work and they don`t look good and they will never get a reward for thier body like those who train , but they are still members, and as long as they come, and want to build up thier muscle, and they ask for help and even start lefting 1 pound wieghts they are accepted by the club as members, so is it for the weak christians that do hardly nothing for themselves but at least they try and ask for help and if thier best is reaching 5 pounds this is accepted by God.
We do have people thAT Join a club and then cancel thier contrat, and don`t want to continue, and they reject being a body builder or reject trust and being a christian any more then they lose thier membership, and a christian loses thier salvation, that why I don`t believe completely on OSAS.
But Kevein to say just because a weak christian doesn`t do works or training and they still have a membership or contract is not saved untill they are great body builder is for me wrong information, and wrong teaching.
I am not calling you A liar, it just wrong information, and teaching.
I hope this was a good example for all the water baptism people , because water baptism is trying to work out in a body building studio without having a membership first.
I hope I anaswered you question ok on Matt 25.
Be Blessed
elected4ever
New member
You have no idea what commandments,do you Kevin?
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
Just so you know, c.moore, Jesus also spoke after His resurrection. You know... things like: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe shall be condemned."
In the case of Matt. 25, you are correct that Jesus hadn't died yet, but that isn't even relevent to the discussion at hand. Don't you realize that Matt. 25:31-46 is speaking of one total event, and that this event has not happened yet? Observe:
Matt. 25:31
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Has this happened yet, c.moore? No. So, when this does happen what will occur? Observe:
Matt. 25:32
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
All the nations will be gathered before Him. The people of these nations that are gathered before Him certainly will exist long after the resurrection of Christ!, for this event has not happened yet! These people spoken of here, who are in the future, will be divided into two herds: sheep and goats. The sheep go to heaven, while the goats roast in hell for their lack of good works. So this certainly applies to us since it applies to people who possibly haven't even been born yet!
Just so you know, c.moore, Jesus also spoke after His resurrection. You know... things like: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe shall be condemned."
In the case of Matt. 25, you are correct that Jesus hadn't died yet, but that isn't even relevent to the discussion at hand. Don't you realize that Matt. 25:31-46 is speaking of one total event, and that this event has not happened yet? Observe:
Matt. 25:31
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Has this happened yet, c.moore? No. So, when this does happen what will occur? Observe:
Matt. 25:32
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
All the nations will be gathered before Him. The people of these nations that are gathered before Him certainly will exist long after the resurrection of Christ!, for this event has not happened yet! These people spoken of here, who are in the future, will be divided into two herds: sheep and goats. The sheep go to heaven, while the goats roast in hell for their lack of good works. So this certainly applies to us since it applies to people who possibly haven't even been born yet!
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c.moore
New member
Quote Kevin
These people spoken of here, who are in the future, will be divided into two herds: sheep and goats. The sheep go to heaven, while the goats roast in hell for their lack of good works. So this certainly applies to us since it applies to people who possibly haven't even been born yet!
Quote c.moore
Where does it say in Matt 25 while the goats roast in hell for their lack of good works????????????
You said:You see, I know that liars won't be in heaven because I believe what the other verses in the Bible tell me as well, I don't ignore them as if they didn't exist. And if you aren't aware that liars won't be in heaven, then perhaps it is you who needs to move on from the milk. Observe:
Quote c.moore
Did you understand this part about the Lieing body builder???
WE have those people who just maybe stand in the lobby and have on the training suit, and towel on thier knecks but they are not members of any club and they are not even written in any registration list or have a contract, but they say they are body builders because they maybe stand in front of the studio or come once a while as an guest , this is a liar
And I mention about the weak christians who look like they do no work , and some have done no body building works
Yes there is alot of weak body builders who do no work and they don`t look good and they will never get a reward for thier body like those who train , but they are still members, and as long as they come, and want to build up thier muscle, and they ask for help and even start lefting 1 pound wieghts they are accepted by the club as members, so is it for the weak christians that do hardly nothing for themselves but at least they try and ask for help and if thier best is reaching 5 pounds this is accepted by God.
I gave this example on my tv show and alot of people really got a revelation from this demostration including pastors.
I did this by going to a body building center and showing how this can be done.
I hope this explains the truth better.
peace
These people spoken of here, who are in the future, will be divided into two herds: sheep and goats. The sheep go to heaven, while the goats roast in hell for their lack of good works. So this certainly applies to us since it applies to people who possibly haven't even been born yet!
Quote c.moore
Where does it say in Matt 25 while the goats roast in hell for their lack of good works????????????
You said:You see, I know that liars won't be in heaven because I believe what the other verses in the Bible tell me as well, I don't ignore them as if they didn't exist. And if you aren't aware that liars won't be in heaven, then perhaps it is you who needs to move on from the milk. Observe:
Quote c.moore
Did you understand this part about the Lieing body builder???
WE have those people who just maybe stand in the lobby and have on the training suit, and towel on thier knecks but they are not members of any club and they are not even written in any registration list or have a contract, but they say they are body builders because they maybe stand in front of the studio or come once a while as an guest , this is a liar
And I mention about the weak christians who look like they do no work , and some have done no body building works
Yes there is alot of weak body builders who do no work and they don`t look good and they will never get a reward for thier body like those who train , but they are still members, and as long as they come, and want to build up thier muscle, and they ask for help and even start lefting 1 pound wieghts they are accepted by the club as members, so is it for the weak christians that do hardly nothing for themselves but at least they try and ask for help and if thier best is reaching 5 pounds this is accepted by God.
I gave this example on my tv show and alot of people really got a revelation from this demostration including pastors.
I did this by going to a body building center and showing how this can be done.
I hope this explains the truth better.
peace
Kevin
New member
You're not even making sense!
You're not even making sense!
c.moore,
:doh: This is just getting plain annoying! You have already agreed that the people spoken of in Matt 25:41-46 are going to hell because of their lack of good works! So why do you say "Where does it say in Matt 25 while the goats roast in hell for their lack of good works?", when you've already agreed to it?!
The people who are are going to hell for their lack of good works (which YOU'VE AGREED TO ) are the goats. What is so hard to understand about that?! And as I've proven, this event and the people spoken of (the goats), has not happened yet, so the fact that this was said before His crucifixtion makes no difference.
Look, if you've got some kind of medical condition that causes you to lose certain parts of your memory, let me know so at least I'll begin to understand. Otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense for you to agree with me that the people were sent to hell for their lack of works, and then turn right around and ask where in Matt 25 that is says that the goats will go to hell for their lack of good works!
I still am not quite sure what you are trying to get at. What is your point? What I do know is this:
These are biblically proven facts. Do you dispute these facts, c.moore? Your bodybuilding anaolgy doesn't change these very simple facts. Not at all.
You have always professed that faith "ONLY" is enough for salvation. How can you have faith "ONLY" and do His commandments? You can't. If you have faith and do His commandments, then it's no longer faith "ONLY".
If all you have is faith "ONLY" and do not do the commandments, the Bible says that you are a liar, and the truth is not in you. Liars will be in Hell. It impossible for faith "ONLY" to save based upon the preceeding verses, because of the lack of action in doing His commandments. If you don't do His commandments you are a liar, and will go to hell. This just amplies what James said, that faith only is dead. Dead faith doesn't save.
You can quote verses like Eph. 2:8 all you want, but until you accept what the whole Bible says, and stop denying the parts that disprove the "faith only doctrine" that you've been brainwashed with by TV evangelists, you will only be preaching a part of the word of God, just as they are. :down:
You're not even making sense!
c.moore,
:doh: This is just getting plain annoying! You have already agreed that the people spoken of in Matt 25:41-46 are going to hell because of their lack of good works! So why do you say "Where does it say in Matt 25 while the goats roast in hell for their lack of good works?", when you've already agreed to it?!
The people who are are going to hell for their lack of good works (which YOU'VE AGREED TO
) are the goats. What is so hard to understand about that?! And as I've proven, this event and the people spoken of (the goats), has not happened yet, so the fact that this was said before His crucifixtion makes no difference.Look, if you've got some kind of medical condition that causes you to lose certain parts of your memory, let me know so at least I'll begin to understand. Otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense for you to agree with me that the people were sent to hell for their lack of works, and then turn right around and ask where in Matt 25 that is says that the goats will go to hell for their lack of good works!
I still am not quite sure what you are trying to get at. What is your point? What I do know is this:
- People who claim to know Christ, yet do not do His commandments are liars (1John 2:4)
- Liars will be in Hell (Rev. 21:8)
- Faith by itself is dead (James 2:17)
These are biblically proven facts. Do you dispute these facts, c.moore? Your bodybuilding anaolgy doesn't change these very simple facts. Not at all.
You have always professed that faith "ONLY" is enough for salvation. How can you have faith "ONLY" and do His commandments? You can't. If you have faith and do His commandments, then it's no longer faith "ONLY".
If all you have is faith "ONLY" and do not do the commandments, the Bible says that you are a liar, and the truth is not in you. Liars will be in Hell. It impossible for faith "ONLY" to save based upon the preceeding verses, because of the lack of action in doing His commandments. If you don't do His commandments you are a liar, and will go to hell. This just amplies what James said, that faith only is dead. Dead faith doesn't save.
You can quote verses like Eph. 2:8 all you want, but until you accept what the whole Bible says, and stop denying the parts that disprove the "faith only doctrine" that you've been brainwashed with by TV evangelists, you will only be preaching a part of the word of God, just as they are. :down:
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c.moore
New member
Hey Kevin
We can`t be saved by trying:doh:
We only can be saved by trusting in Jesus.
There is nothing we can do to gain salvation , and that`s a fact.
Salvation is a gift to recieve not a reward to be earned.
A person who tries even a little bit to gain salvation by works can not be a christian, that why I quoted the verse rom 11:6 which you make it the mosiac laws with grace added to it.:doh:
Victory having salvation is not a reward it a gift.
If you try hard to obey all the commands you will not have peace, because you will be woundering if you did all the commandments and not sure of yourself.
Why do you think God gave the laws and commandment??
I know you might say the same old story so we can obey them because we have nothing else to do
Don`you think our God is omniscient and He know how we are , and we wouldn`t keep the laws and commandment????
That why He gave us grace, and Jesus the way, the truth and the life.
God didn`t say we have to find the way , and work for the truth, and do the life and obey the life to have life:nono:
Chritianty isn`t built around performance, it is centered on Jesus Christ only.
Christianity is not rules and regulations like the muslims, bit it is a relationship with Jesus Christ.
The key to sucess is not hard work, it is a spiritual rest and peace praise God.
try it you`ll like it:up:
I can`t keep going around the same dumm mountain with you , so I`ll keep doing what I always be doing is moving the mountains, so I have to keep going I can`t wait for you any more,and I hope one day you get tired of that same mountain or desert,where there is nothing there,you might find that out,don`t give up stay cool
God bless
We can`t be saved by trying:doh:
We only can be saved by trusting in Jesus.
There is nothing we can do to gain salvation , and that`s a fact.
Salvation is a gift to recieve not a reward to be earned.
A person who tries even a little bit to gain salvation by works can not be a christian, that why I quoted the verse rom 11:6 which you make it the mosiac laws with grace added to it.:doh:
Victory having salvation is not a reward it a gift.
If you try hard to obey all the commands you will not have peace, because you will be woundering if you did all the commandments and not sure of yourself.
Why do you think God gave the laws and commandment??
I know you might say the same old story so we can obey them because we have nothing else to do
Don`you think our God is omniscient and He know how we are , and we wouldn`t keep the laws and commandment????
That why He gave us grace, and Jesus the way, the truth and the life.
God didn`t say we have to find the way , and work for the truth, and do the life and obey the life to have life:nono:
Chritianty isn`t built around performance, it is centered on Jesus Christ only.
Christianity is not rules and regulations like the muslims, bit it is a relationship with Jesus Christ.
The key to sucess is not hard work, it is a spiritual rest and peace praise God.
try it you`ll like it:up:
I can`t keep going around the same dumm mountain with you , so I`ll keep doing what I always be doing is moving the mountains, so I have to keep going I can`t wait for you any more,and I hope one day you get tired of that same mountain or desert,where there is nothing there,you might find that out,don`t give up stay cool
God bless
JustAChristian
New member
More Evidence For Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38
More Evidence For Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38
Another Look at Mark 16:16
Because the evidence of Jesus’ statement which is recorded in Mrk 16:16 is to powerfully conclusive, it will be briefly noted here (with special concern with how it fits so marvelously with Acts 2:38).
In the original Greek of Mark 16:16, it is absolutely “ungetoverable” that both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles. This importance is obvious because the Greek New Testament never uses the aorist participle to refer to action which is subsequent to (occurs after) the acation of the main verb in the sentence (see Robertson and Davis, “A New Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament”, P. 297). Ray Summers, renowned Baptist Greek scholar in his book, “The Essentials of the Greek New Testament”, agreed with Robertson and Davis that the aorist participle never indicates action which is subsequent to the action of the main verb in the sentence. What does this mean? It means that whatever action is indicated by an aorist participle cannot refer to action which occurs after the action of the main verb in the sentence. This fact is very important!
Thus, since in Mark 16:16 both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles in the original Greek, it follows that neither “believeth” nor “is baptized” can occur after salvation. Thus, this passage constitutes proof positive that baptism comes before – not after – salvation from sin. Thus, the passage plainly teaches that no one is saved by the blood of Christ until after he both believes and is baptized by the authority of Christ.
In Acts 2:38 “repent” and “be baptized” are aorist imperatives which is a command to be done seeking a precise result. “For” (Greek, eis) the remission of sins. This clause is in the “accusative case”, and tell us that “eis” means “in order to”. One is to repent and be baptized in order to have remission of sins. There can be no other interpretation for these words. We hope that this brings insight to these verses.
JustAChristian
More Evidence For Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38
Another Look at Mark 16:16
Because the evidence of Jesus’ statement which is recorded in Mrk 16:16 is to powerfully conclusive, it will be briefly noted here (with special concern with how it fits so marvelously with Acts 2:38).
In the original Greek of Mark 16:16, it is absolutely “ungetoverable” that both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles. This importance is obvious because the Greek New Testament never uses the aorist participle to refer to action which is subsequent to (occurs after) the acation of the main verb in the sentence (see Robertson and Davis, “A New Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament”, P. 297). Ray Summers, renowned Baptist Greek scholar in his book, “The Essentials of the Greek New Testament”, agreed with Robertson and Davis that the aorist participle never indicates action which is subsequent to the action of the main verb in the sentence. What does this mean? It means that whatever action is indicated by an aorist participle cannot refer to action which occurs after the action of the main verb in the sentence. This fact is very important!
Thus, since in Mark 16:16 both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles in the original Greek, it follows that neither “believeth” nor “is baptized” can occur after salvation. Thus, this passage constitutes proof positive that baptism comes before – not after – salvation from sin. Thus, the passage plainly teaches that no one is saved by the blood of Christ until after he both believes and is baptized by the authority of Christ.
In Acts 2:38 “repent” and “be baptized” are aorist imperatives which is a command to be done seeking a precise result. “For” (Greek, eis) the remission of sins. This clause is in the “accusative case”, and tell us that “eis” means “in order to”. One is to repent and be baptized in order to have remission of sins. There can be no other interpretation for these words. We hope that this brings insight to these verses.
JustAChristian
Kevin
New member
Can't address my points, eh?
Can't address my points, eh?
c.moore,
Nothing we can do to gain salvation? Well, according to your logic we don't have to believe then, because that's something that we must do.
And speaking of facts, it's too bad you can't address the facts presented in my previous post. I understand though, it would mean acknowlegding that the Bible teaches more than faith only. Indeed, instead of addressing them, this is what I get.
That gift is only given to the obedient. You're just too blinded to realize that being obedient does not mean we are "earning" our salvation. We are to obey because God does NOT tolerate the disobedient. Keep pretending that 1John 2:4 doesn't actually say what it does. Keep ignoring the fact that liars will be in Hell.
For us to obey, that's why. Those who don't obey them are liars, and will burn in hell (1John 2:4)... but I might as well be saying that to a brick wall.
Just keep reassuring yourself that 1John 2:4 doesn't say what it does... As for everybody else who reads that, hopefully they will have the sense to know that people who do not keep His commandments are liars, and that liars will have their part in the lake of fire. Yet, despite that verse's clarity, you contend that it doens't have a bearing on salvation. You just don't get more blind than that.
Indeed it is centered on Jesus, and He the author of salvation to all who OBEY Him. Yes, obey.
You're not fooling anybody. We are only going around this mountain because of your refusal to deal with what the scriptures say.
I've narrowed you down on Matt 25 to where you flip flopped and said "where does it say that", when you've already agreed to it in the past. You can't deal with it, can you. Logic and truth as prevailed.
I've proven that people who do not do His commandments are liars. I've proven that liars will be in hell. How do you respond? Not with the bible, but with a weightlifter analogy that doesn't change the fact that people are liars who don't do His commandments, and that liars will be in Hell. That's yet another fact that you can't deal with. Truth and logic has prevailed again.
Indeed, you will continue to circle this mountain until, perhaps, one day, the scales of pride may fall from your eyes and allow you to see and believe the rest of what the bible says.
Can't address my points, eh?
c.moore,
Nothing we can do to gain salvation? Well, according to your logic we don't have to believe then, because that's something that we must do.
And speaking of facts, it's too bad you can't address the facts presented in my previous post. I understand though, it would mean acknowlegding that the Bible teaches more than faith only. Indeed, instead of addressing them, this is what I get.
That gift is only given to the obedient. You're just too blinded to realize that being obedient does not mean we are "earning" our salvation. We are to obey because God does NOT tolerate the disobedient. Keep pretending that 1John 2:4 doesn't actually say what it does. Keep ignoring the fact that liars will be in Hell.
For us to obey, that's why. Those who don't obey them are liars, and will burn in hell (1John 2:4)... but I might as well be saying that to a brick wall.
Just keep reassuring yourself that 1John 2:4 doesn't say what it does... As for everybody else who reads that, hopefully they will have the sense to know that people who do not keep His commandments are liars, and that liars will have their part in the lake of fire. Yet, despite that verse's clarity, you contend that it doens't have a bearing on salvation. You just don't get more blind than that.
Indeed it is centered on Jesus, and He the author of salvation to all who OBEY Him. Yes, obey.
You're not fooling anybody. We are only going around this mountain because of your refusal to deal with what the scriptures say.
I've narrowed you down on Matt 25 to where you flip flopped and said "where does it say that", when you've already agreed to it in the past. You can't deal with it, can you. Logic and truth as prevailed.
I've proven that people who do not do His commandments are liars. I've proven that liars will be in hell. How do you respond? Not with the bible, but with a weightlifter analogy that doesn't change the fact that people are liars who don't do His commandments, and that liars will be in Hell. That's yet another fact that you can't deal with. Truth and logic has prevailed again.
Indeed, you will continue to circle this mountain until, perhaps, one day, the scales of pride may fall from your eyes and allow you to see and believe the rest of what the bible says.
c.moore
New member
Re: Can't address my points, eh?
Re: Can't address my points, eh?
If you say so :doh:
don´t forget to punch in your work card when trying to obey the commandments, you might get a over time raise to get salvation according to 1John 2:4
peace
Re: Can't address my points, eh?
Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,
Nothing we can do to gain salvation? Well, according to your logic we don't have to believe then, because that's something that we must do.
And speaking of facts, it's too bad you can't address the facts presented in my previous post. I understand though, it would mean acknowlegding that the Bible teaches more than faith only. Indeed, instead of addressing them, this is what I get.
That gift is only given to the obedient. You're just too blinded to realize that being obedient does not mean we are "earning" our salvation. We are to obey because God does NOT tolerate the disobedient. Keep pretending that 1John 2:4 doesn't actually say what it does. Keep ignoring the fact that liars will be in Hell.
For us to obey, that's why. Those who don't obey them are liars, and will burn in hell (1John 2:4)... but I might as well be saying that to a brick wall.
Just keep reassuring yourself that 1John 2:4 doesn't say what it does... As for everybody else who reads that, hopefully they will have the sense to know that people who do not keep His commandments are liars, and that liars will have their part in the lake of fire. Yet, despite that verse's clarity, you contend that it doens't have a bearing on salvation. You just don't get more blind than that.
Indeed it is centered on Jesus, and He the author of salvation to all who OBEY Him. Yes, obey.
You're not fooling anybody. We are only going around this mountain because of your refusal to deal with what the scriptures say.
I've narrowed you down on Matt 25 to where you flip flopped and said "where does it say that", when you've already agreed to it in the past. You can't deal with it, can you. Logic and truth as prevailed.
I've proven that people who do not do His commandments are liars. I've proven that liars will be in hell. How do you respond? Not with the bible, but with a weightlifter analogy that doesn't change the fact that people are liars who don't do His commandments, and that liars will be in Hell. That's yet another fact that you can't deal with. Truth and logic has prevailed again.
Indeed, you will continue to circle this mountain until, perhaps, one day, the scales of pride may fall from your eyes and allow you to see and believe the rest of what the bible says.
If you say so :doh:
don´t forget to punch in your work card when trying to obey the commandments, you might get a over time raise to get salvation according to 1John 2:4
peace
Last edited:
..........
..........
1John2:4 "The man who says, 'I know Him', but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
What are the commands? In summary- "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your brother"- all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two. What is the fruit of the Spirit? Love. If you are saved, you will naturally follow the above commands in a "reaction" sense that excludes it from truly being "work".
God bless,
Jeremiah
..........
1John2:4 "The man who says, 'I know Him', but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
What are the commands? In summary- "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your brother"- all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two. What is the fruit of the Spirit? Love. If you are saved, you will naturally follow the above commands in a "reaction" sense that excludes it from truly being "work".
God bless,
Jeremiah
Kevin
New member
AV,
As I've told Dan37, I'm not going to go through the NT and list out the commandments that Jesus expects us to do. One of them though, is baptism, which Jesus commanded at the Great Commission. Jesus Himself linked baptism as playing a role in our salvation (Mark 16:16).
In a nutshell, I'm just trying to make a distinction that simply having faith "only" is not good enough. One who "claims to know Him" as mentioned in 1John 2:4 can certainly have faith in Christ, for they claim to know Him. But, if they don't do His commandments, they don't really know Him... they are liars. That shows that faith "ONLY" is dead (which will not save anybody), just as the apostle James pointed out.
As I've told Dan37, I'm not going to go through the NT and list out the commandments that Jesus expects us to do. One of them though, is baptism, which Jesus commanded at the Great Commission. Jesus Himself linked baptism as playing a role in our salvation (Mark 16:16).
In a nutshell, I'm just trying to make a distinction that simply having faith "only" is not good enough. One who "claims to know Him" as mentioned in 1John 2:4 can certainly have faith in Christ, for they claim to know Him. But, if they don't do His commandments, they don't really know Him... they are liars. That shows that faith "ONLY" is dead (which will not save anybody), just as the apostle James pointed out.
Last edited:
c.moore
New member
Quote Avmetro
What are the commands? In summary- "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your brother"- all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two.
Quote c.moore
i thought Kevin would say this is a mosiac law so we can`t accept that verse like he did with Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
he said the works here means doing the mosiac laws which don`t exist for us to´day .
What you think about that Avmetro?????
Keep on showing the true facts he might see the truth one day, or year.
What are the commands? In summary- "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your brother"- all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two.
Quote c.moore
i thought Kevin would say this is a mosiac law so we can`t accept that verse like he did with Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
he said the works here means doing the mosiac laws which don`t exist for us to´day .
What you think about that Avmetro?????
Keep on showing the true facts he might see the truth one day, or year.
JustAChristian
New member
Hey, Don't Overlook This...
Hey, Don't Overlook This...
More Information of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38...
Because the evidence of Jesus’ statement which is recorded in Mrk 16:16 is to powerfully conclusive, it will be briefly noted here (with special concern with how it fits so marvelously with Acts 2:38).
In the original Greek of Mark 16:16, it is absolutely “ungetoverable” that both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles. This importance is obvious because the Greek New Testament never uses the aorist participle to refer to action which is subsequent to (occurs after) the acation of the main verb in the sentence (see Robertson and Davis, “A New Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament”, P. 297). Ray Summers, renowned Baptist Greek scholar in his book, “The Essentials of the Greek New Testament”, agreed with Robertson and Davis that the aorist participle never indicates action which is subsequent to the action of the main verb in the sentence. What does this mean? It means that whatever action is indicated by an aorist participle cannot refer to action which occurs after the action of the main verb in the sentence. This fact is very important!
Thus, since in Mark 16:16 both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles in the original Greek, it follows that neither “believeth” nor “is baptized” can occur after salvation. Thus, this passage constitutes proof positive that baptism comes before – not after – salvation from sin. Thus, the passage plainly teaches that no one is saved by the blood of Christ until after he both believes and is baptized by the authority of Christ.
In Acts 2:38 “repent” and “be baptized” are aorist imperatives which is a command to be done seeking a precise result. “For” (Greek, eis) the remission of sins. This clause is in the “accusative case”, and tell us that “eis” means “in order to”. One is to repent and be baptized in order to have remission of sins. There can be no other interpretation for these words. We hope that this brings insight to these verses.
JustAChristian
Hey, Don't Overlook This...
More Information of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38...
Because the evidence of Jesus’ statement which is recorded in Mrk 16:16 is to powerfully conclusive, it will be briefly noted here (with special concern with how it fits so marvelously with Acts 2:38).
In the original Greek of Mark 16:16, it is absolutely “ungetoverable” that both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles. This importance is obvious because the Greek New Testament never uses the aorist participle to refer to action which is subsequent to (occurs after) the acation of the main verb in the sentence (see Robertson and Davis, “A New Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament”, P. 297). Ray Summers, renowned Baptist Greek scholar in his book, “The Essentials of the Greek New Testament”, agreed with Robertson and Davis that the aorist participle never indicates action which is subsequent to the action of the main verb in the sentence. What does this mean? It means that whatever action is indicated by an aorist participle cannot refer to action which occurs after the action of the main verb in the sentence. This fact is very important!
Thus, since in Mark 16:16 both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles in the original Greek, it follows that neither “believeth” nor “is baptized” can occur after salvation. Thus, this passage constitutes proof positive that baptism comes before – not after – salvation from sin. Thus, the passage plainly teaches that no one is saved by the blood of Christ until after he both believes and is baptized by the authority of Christ.
In Acts 2:38 “repent” and “be baptized” are aorist imperatives which is a command to be done seeking a precise result. “For” (Greek, eis) the remission of sins. This clause is in the “accusative case”, and tell us that “eis” means “in order to”. One is to repent and be baptized in order to have remission of sins. There can be no other interpretation for these words. We hope that this brings insight to these verses.
JustAChristian