ECT The Gospel of Grace--Not Made Known Until Paul
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
beloved57
Well-known member
Hi, still waiting!
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Interplanner
Well-known member
Paul was gifted to explain to all that the benefits of the promises to Israel were available to all people, not through the Law but just by faith. that is made clear in the larger passage on this topic, Eph 3A. Judaism thought everything was going to happen through the law.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Paul was a fellow bishop of the church along with the twelve.
His message of love had to be more effective than the others.
Which is in perfect keeping with Jesus' words when he said he who is forgiven much loves much.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
We must be careful to cross examine Eph3A with 3B, 3C, 3D, 3E, and 3F to get the big picture.
Hi and when reading Heb 11 we see how they did suffer !!
But Paul knew he was to SUFFER and why in Acts 9:16 !!
dan p
turbosixx
New member
I agree Paul got it straight from Jesus.
Are you saying grace started with Paul? It appears that you are.
If so please tell me how those on Pentecost were saved if it wasn’t by grace?
What importance are you putting on the fact that Paul was the first to reveal this?
Here’s the way I see this. These Christians at Rome were not converted by Paul because to the best of my knowledge, Paul hadn’t been there before the writing of this letter.
Rom. 1:10 always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God's will I may now at last succeed in coming to you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— 12 that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine. 13 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles.
Since these people were converted by other men and are now being told “justified freely by his grace” well after their conversions, do you see these people in the dispensation of grace?
Interplanner
Well-known member
there's grace all over the OT.
Just today I noticed that Ps 110 says God made Christ a high priest after the order of Melchizedek (not Aaron) so we know from Hebrews that that is God's grace even back then. Judaism had a different purpose and a temporary one.
turbosixx
New member
It's clear that we have something different than they did in the OT.
Heb. 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
What is the objective of Paul's gospel of grace? What is he attempting to accomplish?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course men have been saved by grace since the beginning of time.
But even the prophets who foretold of "grace" did not tie it in to the suffering of Christ:
"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven" (1 Pet.1:10-1).
Here Peter is saying that the prophets searched diligently in an effort to determine what the prophecies concerning Christ's suffering did signify but it was not revealed unto them. Even the Twelve Apostles, those closest to the Lord Jesus, did not realize that He was going to die (Lk.18:31-34) or be resurrected (Jn.20:9). They certainly did not know the "purpose" of the Cross, that "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God" (1 Pet.3:18).
The Scriptures will be searched in vain for anyone before Paul who preached or revealed the basic truth of "grace," that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).
turbosixx
New member
I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for.
I'd say Pau's objective is like anyone's who preaches the gospel, save sinners.
In Romans, I believe his objective is to contrast faith with the law of Moses. Those are the only two options God has given man to atone for sin. The law required you to provide the animal sacrifice but it could never remove sin. Where as by faith in Jesus, he provided the sacrifice that does remove sin.
Rom. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, I have always said that Paul was the first to reveal the basic truth in regard to grace, that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).
The Jews who believed and lived under the law at the time of Pentecost were saved by grace, just as we are:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
The Scriptures reveal that the present "dispensation of grace" began with the preaching of the "gospel of grace." Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:
"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).
"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).
The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:
"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24).
There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace." And since that gospel was not preached until Paul then the present dispensation did not begin until the Mid-Acts period of time.
turbosixx
New member
If those on Pentecost were saved by grace through faith in Jesus, how can you say it started with Paul?
1 Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
turbosixx
New member
I believe the dispensation of grace began with the preaching of Jesus's D,B &R.
Here the Holy Spirit tells us the dispensations, before the cross and after the cross.
Heb. 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
When was man to first hear his sins could be forgiven through Jesus?
Luke 24:46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Yes, Paul was an apostle during this dispensation of grace and proclaimed it but that doesn't mean it started with him. How could it? This dispensation of grace is based on the sacrifice of Jesus. Paul time and time again says by his blood or by the cross. That's when it began.
turbosixx
New member
I would suggest to you that the sermon was interrupted when they heard they crucified Jesus it moved them to ask a question.
Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
After he answers the question it says he went on with many other words.
2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
Interplanner
Well-known member
In the interp of vs 38-39, shall we conclude that the promise refers to the Spirit? I think so, and then you will be unified with Gal 3 on a very deep level.
And I agree. What do you suppose was the objective of the Twelve?
My point is that no matter how the pie is sliced, it is still pie.
There are those on TOL who claim the pie must be sliced by Paul, no one else ever sliced pie his way and if Paul didn't slice it we might as well discard it, throw it away.
The Twelve preached Jesus is the Christ and Paul preached Jesus is the Christ.
Those are the two gospels about Jesus as Savior. Feel free to pick one.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are slow to learn, buddy.
I never said that "grace" started with Paul! Over and over I have said that Paul was the first to preach the heart and soul of the "gospel of grace," that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).
You can believe what you want but what you believe is contradicted by the three verses which I quoted where Paul speaks of the "dispensation of grace" which was committed to him.