Under grace you don't get what you pay for. Under grace, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Regardless of who they are or what they have done.
The God of Calvinism Verses the God of the Bible
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Under grace you don't get what you pay for. Under grace, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Regardless of who they are or what they have done.
Nanja
Well-known member
But according to the Gospel Paul preached, Grace was given exclusively to God's Elect before the world began.
2 Tim. 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
So then the Elect of God calling upon the name of the Lord bears evidence of their being quickened, made Spiritually Alive by the Holy Spirit !
Ps. 80:18
So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.
And as a result they are set free from Satan's Gospel blinding power 2 Cor. 4:3-4!
You poor blind soul. The Bible teaches that we are quickened by the Holy Spirit when we hear and believe the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.
Nanja
Well-known member
No way!
1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1) Hearing the Gospel which is God's Words is only possible by one who has been given Hearing Ears in New Birth Prov. 20:12, being Born Of God.
John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
2) And the same goes for believing, which is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.
For the believing that the natural man does is merely a work [ergon] of the flesh and mind which cannot please God Rom. 8:8.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2041&t=KJV&ss=1
You poor blind fool. Your Calvinist god has convinced you that the bible supports him, it does not. the natural man is the unsaved man that has rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or has not heard it. Those that were saved on the day of Pentecost were saved because they heard and believed Peter's Gospel, Acts 2:41.
"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" which is the Gospel, Romans 10:17.
Nanja
Well-known member
Being a natural man 1 Cor. 2:14 has absolutely nothing to do with anything a person does or does not do, but is solely predicated on whether Christ died for that one which results in their being Born of God, but if He has not, they shall remain in an unregenerate state and partake in the second death Rev. 21:8.
Last edited:
You poor blind fool. The scripture plainly says that Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, 1 John 2:2. Your Calvinist God is a liar.
Nanja
Well-known member
Wrong, false prophet Pate!
Christ Jesus died for the eternally forgiven world 2 Cor. 5:19.
But not for the eternally condemned world 1 Cor. 11:32!
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14.
You are not able to receive this truth because your Calvinist god has blinded you.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Basic definitions, Robert. You use the word "unjust" and it appears you think it simply means "unfair". Am I right? If not, what does it mean to be "just" (or "unjust")? The definition of the term is pretty straightforward, I think. It is where we get our word "justice" from. It isn't about being fair or unfair, it is about doing what is right - what is according to truth. That is a far cry from "fair".
Remember what He did in Noah's day? That was justice. Remember what He did to Israel in response to their idolatry? They were sent into captivity. That was justice. He even told them ahead of time what would happen. That is justice. And did He serve justice as soon as they strayed? No. Far from it. He tolerated wandering after wandering - even after He gave them a generation in the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts (Deuteronomy 8:2). And at some point, He finally gave them justice. But not after years of tolerance and forbearance. Is that justice? No, that's mercy. Read Psalm 78 and see how just God is. The heart of that chapter reads like this :
But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
Psalm 78:38
Yet, of the same people, God directed this :
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:9-10
God is telling Isaiah to prophesy so that Israel is hardened. How is that just? It certainly doesn't seem fair, but I would say it is just. These people have continually rejected God. Over and over again gone back to their own ways and rejected their Savior. So God is giving them over to their wickedness. Even a generation that may not have had the chance to do right or wrong - they are being judged for the sins of the fathers. How is that fair? How is that just? They may hear the words of warning, but God has determined that it will be to their destruction, not to their repentance and salvation.
Jeremiah sums up the problem very succinctly :
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9
And Jesus echoes this sentiment :
Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:21-22
...and...
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:27-30
We have the evidence of thousands of years to show that there is none righteous (no not one) and that there is no excuse. The problem is not with our actions, it is with who we are. That's why God (who is omniscient) can say that He loved Jacob but hated Esau...even before the two were born. He wasn't forseeing what they would do, He was making a Sovereign decree. Jacob was a rotter and God loved Him. Esau wasn't the manipulator Jacob was yet God still hated him. Since none are justified before God by their own works, none can call God unjust for whatever He does with His Creation.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:19-21
It seems to me you are (repeatedly) trying to advance the very argument Paul was putting down in Romans 9. But your OP isn't even really consistent. You have railed against Calvinism (supposedly) having God as unjust, but you have clearly used a different definition for the term. Used properly, there is no issue with the Dordt statement. One doesn't need to be Calvinist to agree with that, either.
EDIT : Again...note that the statement of justice goes to justification by works. Were we justified by works (which is the definition of justice) we would all be rightly condemned. But God goes further and exposes why our works fall short (even worse) of the glory of God. We are all traitors at heart.
Last edited:
To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is to believe that God is unjust. If God is unjust that means that he is a sinner just like us.
God is free to do with his creation as he pleases only if it is within his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature. God cannot sin against himself nor can he violate his holy law. Romans 9:19,21 does not teach that does.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Your statement that God is free to do with His creation only if it is within His holy, just, merciful, righteous nature...what does that mean? You throw terms around without defining them properly. That's part of the problem with your OP. You have used "just" incorrectly. It does not mean what you seem to want it to mean. Then, in this response, you have added that God can do what He wants as long as...and then say that whatever He does has to be (simultaneously?) holy, just, merciful and righteous?
You need to :
1. Define the terms
2. Support your assertion that all these are requirements upon what God does (at the same time?).
Romans 9:19-21 shows that some are not happy with God doing what He wills. If one defines how God is required make His determinations, then one must be very careful to support that clearly (and consistently). You haven't done either. Note the tone of Romans 9 being that God is God and we are not. His goals and ways are NOT ours. So to say that God is required to focus everything on the salvation of as many as possible...that doesn't necessarily comport with scripture. As soon as we say a certain way of God acting is unjust, we need to make sure we are not reflecting our own standards rather than scripture's. Moses struck a rock and was denied entrance to the Promised Land. Was God being merciful to Moses by punishing him for one misstep? Thousands of Israelites perished in slavery in Egypt without ever being given the opportunity to have freedom. Was it just of God to leave them in bondage while delivering multitudes of others who would eventually turn from Him anyway (and Him knowing this)? Was it just for God to make thousands of Israelites within earshot of Isaiah become hardened to the truth - knowing that Christ wouldn't appear for 700 years and that generations of Israelites would suffer judgment because of hardening of their forebears?
Your standards are uncertain and need to be clarified.
You want to believe that God is an unjust sinner like you are.
The rock that Moses struck represented Christ. God was just in punishing him.
My standards are very clear. You are the one with the problem. All that God or his Son Jesus Christ says or does is holy, just, merciful and righteous. If you want to make accusations save them for the judgment. There will be plenty just like yourself that will accuse God of being unjust.
Nanja
Well-known member
nikolai_42
Well-known member
God says He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and harden whom He will harden.
But you still haven't dealt with your definition of "just". Why would it be unjust for God to let all mankind perish in his sin? Why would it be unjust for God to leave mankind to his own devices and judge each man according to his own works? Who would stand?
God does not harden anyone's heart. Pharaohs heart was already hardened.
Do you believe that God would have been just if he would have let man perish in his sins? This is what the Calvinist believe. Perhaps you are a Calvinist.
I have dealt with the word "Just". To be just you must be righteous. The word "Just" or "Justice" are legal words much like "Justified". God would not have been just if he had not provided a savior for fallen man. It is not man's fault that he is a sinner, Romans 5:12, but its his fault if he does not accept Christ as his savior.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
By your own reasoning, then ("It's not man's fault that he is a sinner") which of the punishments meted out in the OT are just? Further, what of the children God ordered destroyed - both Israelite children (e.g. Ezekiel 9:6) and non-Israelite children (e.g. I Samuel 15:3 - note that God here says specifically to kill even the newborns)? Was it just of God to have them killed before they could even speak? These are dying for the sins of their parents. If that is just, then for all of Adam's progeny to die for their sins (which are only theirs because of Adam) is just. There is no a priori requirement for the Creator to provide anyone a way out of their predicament - not for justice. Justice demands payment that corresponds to the offense. The wages of sin is death - regardless of who you are. Death may have entered the world through sin - and sin through Adam - but that doesn't change individual responsibility before God for one's own expression of it. The only way a requirement would be on God for providing a way out of sin is if He were directly responsible for it being introduced in the first place. Adam sinned, not God.
It is poor theology to pull scripture out of context. If you would have read further you would have learned that those people that were killed were some of the worst of the worst, Ezekiel 8:10-13. In the Old Testament under the law it was not uncommon for whole family's to be put to death because of their abominations. Keep in mind that Israel was to be a holy nation from whom the savior of the world was to come, God wanted to be sure that the line from which Christ was to come would not be perverted.
Things are a lot different under grace than they were under the law. Life under the law was harsh. If you did well you were blessed, if you didn't you were cursed. Not so in the New Testament. This is the age of grace.
Yes Adam sinned not God. However, God took full responsibility for Adam's sin and provided him with a savior. But God does not force anyone to believe on the savior, If he did that he would be unjust. You need a more positive outlook on the nature and the character of God.