ECT The failure of the Bible or God is not resolved by a future Israel

[Interplanner]

We can be grafted in, but Paul is speaking about those who had been grafted out being grafted back in...that is too plain to have to explain, and it has not happened yet

Those who were rejected have not yet been accepted.

And the hardening on part of Israel was for a time "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" so when that happens the hardening will be lifted.

I don't see the guarantee that ethnos Israel is suddenly able to understand spiritually. That's true of the new Israel now. The hardening just lasts. Period. He has already made it clear that the ones who have faith now are the ones who see now.

How can people who rejected Christ in 65AD be given a chance in 2065 to believe and make up for it? It's not what he means at all. It is a chapter of urging and prodding but not prediction.

 

[Interplanner]

You don't see because your doctrine acts like blinkers for example Paul says

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God for the creation was subjected to futility not of it's own will but by the will of Him who subjected it in hope.

because the creation itself will be SET FREE from it's bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

We know that the creation has been groaning in travail together until now, and not only creation but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the Spirit.

Your eyes just skate over scriptures like that...the creation is to be set free, the curse will be lifted. No loud bangs, no melting away of the elements etc....not at that point of time at least, those things happen after the thousand years.

Peter full of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost said

Heaven must hold [Christ] until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the holy prophets of old.

That is that nations will beat the swords into plowshares etc

Those prophecies must come to pass, you can't just take them out of the bible.

You say that it is happening now..where is it happening? which nation is it that does not study war any more? you say the church, but the church is not the nations....we never had any swords to beat into plowshares.

You don't see the prophecies concerning the nations which will flock to the mountain of the Lord to learn the ways of the God of Jacob? really? It is because you read with the view to making the bible agree with your doctrine.

The latter days that Isaiah prophesied are the opposite to the end of the age that Christ foretold, neither has fully happened yet, we see only the birth pangs of the tribulations Jesus predicted.

But Isaiah prophesied peace and abundance.

They are both true prophecies but to be fulfilled at different times

And Jesus said His signs were for the end of the age, not the end of the world.

Of course I believe on the redemptive day of the sons of God; that's the NHNE. I also note that there is nothing Judaic about Rom 8!

That's after this miserable overlap age is done. In this overlap age, we Christians have the forlorn task of proclaiming that this world is his; that all people and rulers should bow. For he has been made Lord and Christ of all. The same apostles who did that also prayed: why do the nations rage against the Lord and his Christ? That's how it will be to the end of time. Harden up!

I think you think the time of restoration of 3:21 is about Israel. It is about Christ. If there is one thing clear about the apostles teaching it is that what was "David's" is actually Christs: 2:31 and 13:34 which is a quote of Is 55. Things will be restored to God through Christ, but it is not Judaic; it is not a golden age for Israel. Christ was the Seed to whom the promises were made, Gal 3:16.

the end of the age was the end of the temple, Judaism, the Law, etc. That's what he is talking about in Mt24A. But if you know very many of the OT quotes by the NT you know that the incoming of many people from the nations was definitely underway and was the sign of the messianic age. In Rom 16, Paul refers to a decree from God that this fact be un-hidden from the OT so that the nations would believe and obey the Gospel. This happens through the proclamation of it.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I don't see the guarantee that ethnos Israel is suddenly able to understand spiritually. That's true of the new Israel now. The hardening just lasts. Period. He has already made it clear that the ones who have faith now are the ones who see now.

How can people who rejected Christ in 65AD be given a chance in 2065 to believe and make up for it? It's not what he means at all. It is a chapter of urging and prodding but not prediction.

No, you are directly contradicting scripture here for the sake of your doctrinal position.

Paul say the hardening has come upon some of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles be brought in. The Lord said that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be complete....it is the same teaching.

Just look at Zechariah 12:9 onward

And it shall come to pass in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem

And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of GRACE and supplication and they shall look upon whom they have pierced and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son and shall be in bitterness for Him as one is in bitterness for his firstborn

In that day shall there be great mourning in Jerusalem as the mourning of Ha dad rimmon in the valley of Megiddon

And the land shall mourn, EVERY family apart, the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart

vs 14
All the families apart and their wives apart.

That is the WHOLE of Israel looking upon Him who they have pierced and mourning for Him....


Israel is going to be born again as a nation my friend...isn't it wonderful?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Of course I believe on the redemptive day of the sons of God; that's the NHNE. I also note that there is nothing Judaic about Rom 8!

That's after this miserable overlap age is done. In this overlap age, we Christians have the forlorn task of proclaiming that this world is his; that all people and rulers should bow. For he has been made Lord and Christ of all. The same apostles who did that also prayed: why do the nations rage against the Lord and his Christ? That's how it will be to the end of time. Harden up!

I think you think the time of restoration of 3:21 is about Israel. It is about Christ. If there is one thing clear about the apostles teaching it is that what was "David's" is actually Christs: 2:31 and 13:34 which is a quote of Is 55. Things will be restored to God through Christ, but it is not Judaic; it is not a golden age for Israel. Christ was the Seed to whom the promises were made, Gal 3:16.

the end of the age was the end of the temple, Judaism, the Law, etc. That's what he is talking about in Mt24A. But if you know very many of the OT quotes by the NT you know that the incoming of many people from the nations was definitely underway and was the sign of the messianic age. In Rom 16, Paul refers to a decree from God that this fact be un-hidden from the OT so that the nations would believe and obey the Gospel. This happens through the proclamation of it.

Once again you are in direct contradiction with Paul because of your doctrinal stance.

It is not the New Heaven New Earth.

It is the creation which has been in bondage to decay which is groaning together in travail which is to be SET FREE.

Yes the revealing of the sons of God is Israel...that is why Paul teaches that their reconciliation will mean life from the dead. Israel is God's firstborn son, always was, always will be

The Church Jew/Gentile is the Bride of Christ.

It is that restoration which the possuls asked about saying "Lord will You at this time rstore the kingdom?"

Jesus coulda said "there is no restoration" He didn't He said "it is in the Father's hands"

 

[Totton Linnet]

You fail to see it, your doctrine causes you to skate over precious scriptures. For you talk about 1 kingdom in Heaven and 1 on Earth.

Paul says in Ephesians
the will of God for the fullness of times is to unite in Him ALL things whether they be things in Heaven or things on Earth.

This fullness of time is the Millennial age, it CANNOT be this age for once again when Christ returns the earth is gone as far away from Him as it is possible to go...they will flee and beg the mountains to fall upon them.

I must tell you I never read scripture with preconceived doctrines, I lay all doctrines aside, that way God can teach you afresh...if what you learn fits what you already believe that's good, but you must free your mind in order to learn afresh.

It is not 1 kingdom in heaven and 1 on earth it is heaven and earth united...what we have always prayed "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

 

[Interplanner]

Dispensationalism is preconceived. It takes a long time to undo it.

No, I don't talk about one kingdom in heaven and one on earth. It sounds too much like two programs. And there won't be a perfect kingdom on this earth. The millenium as the Rev describes it is not Judaic, and ends with a revolt that affects all believers, then come the NHNE, which we already see in Christ, the new creation.

We as Christians are to proclaim Christ as enthroned Lord of the universe because of what he accomplished in the Gospel. Everytime we open our mouths, it should just about take people's breath away because it is so counter to the hardness of our culture and secular humanism and centralized government, and the Left.

don't generate any doctrine from the Rev. It must be totally clear elsewhere.

The fulness of time is what happened in Christ. There are many passages that say this, and it is in eph 1 that way. What took place in Christ is greater than anything that could happen in an age to come!

 

[rougueone]

If someone can show where the truth of the Bible or God, according to the apostles, finally rests on a view of a future Israel, please do! In Romans, that is never the thing that resolves this problem, or question. The question is resolved in the belief that Christ fulfilled what was promised to Israel/the fathers so that the nations would be able to believe and share in the promises too.

Mankind all started with the Hebrews. later to become Jew's. The first scrifice for sins started with the hebrews-Jew's. And will end with the people of Isreal. Remember when Jesus returns it will be at the mount in Israel.

There is no doubt that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. “For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

From all the nations and people on the earth, why exactly did God “choose” the Jews? John Gill, in his Exposition of the Entire Bible, says the Jews were “chosen for special service and worship, and to enjoy special privileges and benefits, civil and religious; though they were not chosen to special grace…or eternal glory.” The Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth (Genesis 12). The Jews were chosen to be a light to the Gentiles.

Since Jesus all men have the ability for salvation. But the Jewish people are still Gods first chosen ones. yet he loves the Gentiles as much.
Acts 1:9-11
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Jesus left earth from the Mount of Olives and rose up into the clouds in the sky to ascend to heaven. Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives in the same way as He left, returning in the clouds from heaven.

Zechariah 14:4
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.



Holy God is far from completing His ministry with Isreal.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Dispensationalism is preconceived. It takes a long time to undo it.

No, I don't talk about one kingdom in heaven and one on earth. It sounds too much like two programs. And there won't be a perfect kingdom on this earth. The millenium as the Rev describes it is not Judaic, and ends with a revolt that affects all believers, then come the NHNE, which we already see in Christ, the new creation.

We as Christians are to proclaim Christ as enthroned Lord of the universe because of what he accomplished in the Gospel. Everytime we open our mouths, it should just about take people's breath away because it is so counter to the hardness of our culture and secular humanism and centralized government, and the Left.

don't generate any doctrine from the Rev. It must be totally clear elsewhere.

The fulness of time is what happened in Christ. There are many passages that say this, and it is in eph 1 that way. What took place in Christ is greater than anything that could happen in an age to come!

Scriptural hopscotch
You believe Isaiah's new heaven and new earth but hop over the previous chapter which refers to Israel's latter days greatness.

You believe in Revelations new heaven and new earth but hop over the preceding chapter which speaks about the thousand year reign.

 

[intojoy]

Interplanetary has the majority view... Wrong view but majority

 

[Totton Linnet]

Interplanetary has the majority view... Wrong view but majority

Yes he holds the amillennial view which in effects cuts the church away from her root which is Israel.

Ammillen was brought into the church in the 4th century.

 

[Interplanner]

Scriptural hopscotch
You believe Isaiah's new heaven and new earth but hop over the previous chapter which refers to Israel's latter days greatness.

You believe in Revelations new heaven and new earth but hop over the preceding chapter which speaks about the thousand year reign.

It is not hopscotch because so many NT passages quote these 'greatness of Israel' verses about the Christian church. The fallen tent of David that was raised was the incoming of the nations, says the Jerusalem council of Acts 15. It has been the method of Dispensationalism and 2P2P ever since I have known them to read the OT direct. To not read the NT use of the OT, the 2500 cases.

When you do that you are reading veiled. The veil is only removed in Christ, 2 Cor 3-5.

It is not an automatic road to anti-semitism. Unless Paul was not Jewish.

 

[Interplanner]

Scriptural hopscotch
You believe Isaiah's new heaven and new earth but hop over the previous chapter which refers to Israel's latter days greatness.

You believe in Revelations new heaven and new earth but hop over the preceding chapter which speaks about the thousand year reign.

There is nothing Judaic about that 1000 year reign, and I'd have to see the 1000 year reign mentioned as clearly as the resurrection of Christ OUTSIDE the Revelation. In fact there is so very little about it, I wouldn't mention it if I could help it.

The prophets never had this idea about a Messianic reign happening that way. This seems to be why Judaism generally did not include the prophets as being divine, only the Torah. The prophets vision is always bursting far beyond the land of Israel, and then there's the messy business (to Judaism) of the outpouring of the Spirit that helps get Messiah's message to all places of the earth. It is really about the Christian mission.

This is why a theocracy for Israel is never entertained in Acts past the abrupt dismissal in 1:8. The mission of the Gospel is clearly in its place, as the hearing in Acts 26 finalizes; but the indicators are all through.

 

[Interplanner]

Yes he holds the amillennial view which in effects cuts the church away from her root which is Israel.

Ammillen was brought into the church in the 4th century.

The root of the church is the Gospel. There isn't anything about Israel per se that is a root. It was faith that some in Israel had which is a root.

Amill would mean none at all. The only belief that the NT could possibly have about the mill was that it was an image. This was based on 3 expressions in an apocalyptic writing, that Christ was reigning until the end of time when there would be a rebellion and hardship for all believers around the world right before the relief of the NHNE. If it was supposed to mean a restored theocracy and worship system in Israel, it's pretty badly done. And it would completely conflict with Acts 26.

None of the original leaders of the church thought there was any future role for Israel as such after the crushing destruction of Jerusalem. The question of the delay of the final judgement did nag however. Mark, Matthew and Peter had given reasons that there would be a delay. It was Irenaeus who thought that perhaps there might be a replication of the theocracy of Israel again. That was about 150 when that idea emerged. It was not very strong. It was much more clear that the mission of the Gospel to the whole world was the stage we were in to the end of time.

Again, there needs to be clarity about 'amill.' About whether it means none at all, or simply a form other than a Judaic form in a fixed 1000 years.

re majority view.
The majority view today is Dispensationalism. It was not the view of the Reformation. D'ism is really from the Counter Reformation through Ribera, and then more recently through the sincere but misguided effort of the Brethren about the persistent conflict between Catholics and Protestants in the UK in the 1800s. I assume you know that the Reformation generally saw the Pope as antichrist.

 

[Totton Linnet]

There is nothing Judaic about that 1000 year reign, and I'd have to see the 1000 year reign mentioned as clearly as the resurrection of Christ OUTSIDE the Revelation. In fact there is so very little about it, I wouldn't mention it if I could help it.

The prophets never had this idea about a Messianic reign happening that way. This seems to be why Judaism generally did not include the prophets as being divine, only the Torah. The prophets vision is always bursting far beyond the land of Israel, and then there's the messy business (to Judaism) of the outpouring of the Spirit that helps get Messiah's message to all places of the earth. It is really about the Christian mission.

This is why a theocracy for Israel is never entertained in Acts past the abrupt dismissal in 1:8. The mission of the Gospel is clearly in its place, as the hearing in Acts 26 finalizes; but the indicators are all through.

It's all over the place in Paul's writings...but you have blinkers on and won't see it.

Go ahead then call the present creation which is to be delivered from it's bondage to decay as the new heavens and the new earth.

It doesn't bother me.

 

[Interplanner]

It's all over the place in Paul's writings...but you have blinkers on and won't see it.

Go ahead then call the present creation which is to be delivered from it's bondage to decay as the new heavens and the new earth.

It doesn't bother me.

Tracking problems, Totton:

I'm not saying this earth is the NHNE. However, there is a grammatical case on 2 Cor 5 why Christ himself is the new creation, likewise Gal 6.

The kingdom of God has come; Mt 12 re Beelzebub. Satan's binding means that the Gospel can go to the whole world; I deduct from that that if he was not bound, it would have failed. This "binding" is one feature that the mill has; that's a reason for thinking he was referring to this present time. Not a theocracy, but a rule or reign based on the courageous proclamation of the Gospel and his Lordship.

After this age, and the final judgement of all earth, there appears to be the NHNE in fact. However, we all know it has some curious features: the Lamb is the light, and God is the temple. Now, what does that mean?

 

[Interplanner]

It's all over the place in Paul's writings...but you have blinkers on and won't see it.

Go ahead then call the present creation which is to be delivered from it's bondage to decay as the new heavens and the new earth.

It doesn't bother me.

Are you saying the mill is all over the place in Paul's writing? What in the world? The only place it shows in a search is one location in the Rev!

 

[Totton Linnet]

God's plan for the fullness of time is to reconcile all things to Himself, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven.

You say it is the new earth...but my friend the new earth will not need to be reconciled.

Your doctrine blinds you

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes he holds the amillennial view which in effects cuts the church away from her root which is Israel.

Ammillen was brought into the church in the 4th century.

Israel has never been the root of the tree.


Israelites who were cutoff were unbelieving natural branches.


Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Jesus is the branch which grew out of the roots.

His Father was/is God, not the Jews.

Those who believed of the nations have been grafted in among believing Israel and has nothing to do with Judaism or their unbelief.

All the unbelievers of OT Israel who were cut off are now dead.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

God's plan for the fullness of time is to reconcile all things to Himself, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven.

You say it is the new earth...but my friend the new earth will not need to be reconciled.

Your doctrine blinds you

"You say it is the new earth" What is?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Tracking problems, Totton:

I'm not saying this earth is the NHNE. However, there is a grammatical case on 2 Cor 5 why Christ himself is the new creation, likewise Gal 6.

The kingdom of God has come; Mt 12 re Beelzebub. Satan's binding means that the Gospel can go to the whole world; I deduct from that that if he was not bound, it would have failed. This "binding" is one feature that the mill has; that's a reason for thinking he was referring to this present time. Not a theocracy, but a rule or reign based on the courageous proclamation of the Gospel and his Lordship.

After this age, and the final judgement of all earth, there appears to be the NHNE in fact. However, we all know it has some curious features: the Lamb is the light, and God is the temple. Now, what does that mean?

It means Christ has returned and completed His Holy city of resurrected saints.

For only the saints of the resurrection will see His face in the Holy City and the remaining world will be overseen by the Saints in power in the Kingdom of God on earth.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.


Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Psa 72:1 A Psalm for Solomon. Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
Psa 72:2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
Psa 72:3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Psa 72:5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
Psa 72:6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
Psa 72:7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
Psa 72:8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Psa 72:12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
Psa 72:13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
Psa 72:14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
Psa 72:15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
Psa 72:16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
Psa 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
Psa 72:18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
Psa 72:19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
Psa 72:20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.
LA