ECT The failure of the Bible or God is not resolved by a future Israel

[Interplanner]

...and was there any time in Acts when it was time? yes. Acts 26: everything israel was hoping for as they worship day and night was already fulfilled in the resurrection. Which is a one line summary of the sermon in Acts 13. Have you memorized the sermon of Acts 13? Do you know it is there? The one official complete apostolic unpressured sermon at a synagogue and you don't know it inside out? Know it, man. Know every emotion, the lows, the highs.

 

[Totton Linnet]

But 'the house was left desolate.' This was declared years before 66 AD. If you don't know what 66-70 was like in Judea, you don't know desolate.

God doesn't do anything with ethnos per se. He works with people through Christ alone. Nothing needs to happen in or to modern Israel as an ethnos to complete his redemptive work. No more than in any other ethnos.

But that just ISN'T according to His promise to Father Abe the promise to him was "from your loins....through Isaac" INNUMERABLE seed more than the sand on the seashore or the stars in heaven.

Israel has never exceeded but a few millions population, God promised them to enlarge their land from the Red sea to the Euphrates...that is from Egypt to Iran....it has not yet happened.

I believe it is to happen very soon, I believe Israel will become a super power even before they turn to the Lord.

 

[Totton Linnet]

...and was there any time in Acts when it was time? yes. Acts 26: everything israel was hoping for as they worship day and night was already fulfilled in the resurrection. Which is a one line summary of the sermon in Acts 13. Have you memorized the sermon of Acts 13? Do you know it is there? The one official complete apostolic unpressured sermon at a synagogue and you don't know it inside out? Know it, man. Know every emotion, the lows, the highs.

Acts 13 In the second psalm is written

Thou art My Son today I have begotten You and as for the fact that He raised Him from the dead no more to see corruption He spake in this way

"I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David"

In psalm 2 you can see what these sure blessings are "I will make the nations Your heritage and the ends of the earth Your possession."

This is not yet fulfilled to Christ....will it be in this age ?

NO

Because we read at the end of this age nations will rise up against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, they will be parlous times when men will be lovers of self rather than God...right up to the end.

Therefore I say to you that the sure promises to David will be fulfilled in the next age...the Millennial age.

 

[Interplanner]

Sorry but he meant now. In the Gospel. Christ reigns through the Gospel, part of which is the proclamation that He is Lord of the universe now. "What was promised to the fathers is fulfilled for us their children." That is completed. Isaiah says the promises to David actually belong to Christ, so that all nations can be taught to believe and obey the Gospel.

If Paul needed your notes on a future Israel, he would have said something in 13 or 26. he does not and he completely addresses the "hope of Israel."

 

[Totton Linnet]

Sorry but he meant now. In the Gospel. Christ reigns through the Gospel, part of which is the proclamation that He is Lord of the universe now. "What was promised to the fathers is fulfilled for us their children." That is completed. Isaiah says the promises to David actually belong to Christ, so that all nations can be taught to believe and obey the Gospel.

If Paul needed your notes on a future Israel, he would have said something in 13 or 26. he does not and he completely addresses the "hope of Israel."

He says all Israel will be saved

 

[HisServant]

He says all Israel will be saved

Not all Israel is the Israel of the promise.. he is very specific about that also.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Not all Israel is the Israel of the promise.. he is very specific about that also.

"If their failure means riches for the world, how much more will their FULL inclusion mean?"

"For if their rejection means reconciliation for the world what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"

So you see Paul is not speaking about the remnant, those Jews who accepted Christ...the Jewish church.

But those who failed THEY will be included, those who were rejected THEY will be accepted, those who were graffed out THEY will be graffed back in.

 

[Interplanner]

I know it sounds future, but he means those who are believing right now (then). He is trying to 'arouse his countrymen to faith'--and to the mission. it is not a prediction of a distant future. In fact, Paul is usually on the short end of the spectrum thinking Christ will come and end history very soon.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

"If their failure means riches for the world, how much more will their FULL inclusion mean?"

"For if their rejection means reconciliation for the world what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"

So you see Paul is not speaking about the remnant, those Jews who accepted Christ...the Jewish church.

But those who failed THEY will be included, those who were rejected THEY will be accepted, those who were graffed out THEY will be graffed back in.

When Job was restored, the first children he had and lost remained dead.

Same with Zion--

Isa 49:14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.


Isa 49:20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
Isa 49:21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?

Psa 45:13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.
Psa 45:14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.
Psa 45:15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
Psa 45:16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

LA

 

[Totton Linnet]

Sorry but he meant now. In the Gospel. Christ reigns through the Gospel, part of which is the proclamation that He is Lord of the universe now. "What was promised to the fathers is fulfilled for us their children." That is completed. Isaiah says the promises to David actually belong to Christ, so that all nations can be taught to believe and obey the Gospel.

If Paul needed your notes on a future Israel, he would have said something in 13 or 26. he does not and he completely addresses the "hope of Israel."

Even you had to hedge there "so that all nations can be taught to believe and obey"

Because you know well that Christ's Lordship is not yet established in the earth....nor will it be in this age...but they are SURE promises, they will be accomplished in the next age.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I know it sounds future, but he means those who are believing right now (then). He is trying to 'arouse his countrymen to faith'--and to the mission. it is not a prediction of a distant future. In fact, Paul is usually on the short end of the spectrum thinking Christ will come and end history very soon.

It still is future for those who were rejected have not yet been accepted, those who failed have not yet attained to FULL inclusion and those who were graffed out have not yet been graffed back in.

These who were diminished are not the ones who accepted Christ but those who rejected [and still do reject] Christ.

 

[Interplanner]

OK, so long as you don't mean the whole ethnos. God does everything through Christ and individual's response to him, whether Jewish, Russian or Argentine.

 

[Totton Linnet]

OK, so long as you don't mean the whole ethnos. God does everything through Christ and individual's response to him, whether Jewish, Russian or Argentine.

Ok so now we go on to the next point which will make you crazy...the promises of God to the Jews that is ethnic Israel are clear different to the promises He made to the church Jew/Gentile.

I.E. God promised them the land, our inheritance is heaven but the Jews inherit the land.

And God did not promise the Russians or Argies that but the Jews He did.

 

[Interplanner]

They no longer matter in the NT. Look at any declarations by the NT about them; they don't matter. Gal 3, 2 cor 3-5, Rom 4 (says it is the whole world), Eph 3.

In Rom 11 the most egregious error is seeing "saved" toward the end of the chapter and reading "a restored theocracy." It is not. "Saved" is what Isaiah just said--to have sins taken away. All parts of the Isaiah quote are being fulfilled as Paul speaks.

Nothing in 2 Peter 3 finds any thing in Judea that needs to happen to close the book on human history. Nothing in Rom 2 or 8. Heb 11 says the fathers weren't even looking for a land on earth!

There are not two programs. The reason for the Law was to prep for Christ and it had to have sharp-edged specifics, but it was not to replace the Promise which was world wide and in Christ, Gal 3:17. It was Judaism's mistake to think that God meant replacement.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Do diggalittle deeper.

It is the blessing of Abraham which is come upon the Gentiles...but YOU are the one saying that the promise to Abraham has now been cancelled...what Paul is saying is not that the promise to Abe and his seed is now void but that it has [through Christ] come upon us.

The law is irrelevant to this, we are not obliged to keep the law. Yet strangely the church has let the promises go but clung on to the law.

If you take away Abe and his seed how can the promises made to him come upon us?...how can we be made co-heir of the promises? how can we be fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel is you take the commonwealth of Israel away? That is why Paul says "you do not support the root [which is Israel] but the root supports you"

Anti semitism has been a disaster for the church since earliest times. By taking Israel out of the equation the church takes all the promises of God made to Israel out too.

That is EXACTLY how good covenant Christians speak, when they read

Bless the Lord o my soul and forget not all His benefits
who forgiveth all thine iniquities, who healeth all thy diseases
who satisfieth thy mouth with GOOD things

They say oh yes we have the forgiveness of sins but all these other good promises were only made to the Jews...these earthly promises.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The church is preaching a future heavenly kingdom which we know is true but to everyone just seems to be pie in the sky. But Jesus said "All power is given unto Me in heaven AND ON EARTH...go ye therefore and preach the good news"

The good news is that Jesus is King.

Therefore all the promises God ever made to the Jews [and they are many and they are substantial] are for us as well...the fact that He does the earthly promises are signs that He will do or has done the heavenly or spiritual promises.

 

[Interplanner]

Do diggalittle deeper.

It is the blessing of Abraham which is come upon the Gentiles...but YOU are the one saying that the promise to Abraham has now been cancelled...what Paul is saying is not that the promise to Abe and his seed is now void but that it has [through Christ] come upon us.

The law is irrelevant to this, we are not obliged to keep the law. Yet strangely the church has let the promises go but clung on to the law.

If you take away Abe and his seed how can the promises made to him come upon us?...how can we be made co-heir of the promises? how can we be fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel is you take the commonwealth of Israel away? That is why Paul says "you do not support the root [which is Israel] but the root supports you"

Anti semitism has been a disaster for the church since earliest times. By taking Israel out of the equation the church takes all the promises of God made to Israel out too.

That is EXACTLY how good covenant Christians speak, when they read

Bless the Lord o my soul and forget not all His benefits
who forgiveth all thine iniquities, who healeth all thy diseases
who satisfieth thy mouth with GOOD things

They say oh yes we have the forgiveness of sins but all these other good promises were only made to the Jews...these earthly promises.

One or two things at a time.

1, I'm not saying the promise to Abraham was canceled. Paul says it never was about the land anyway. He says it was Christ. Gal 3, Acts 13. Christ is what was promised, and Christ has been delivered. He does mention once in Rom 4 that what Abraham would inherit was the whole world. Since it is the only time he mentions something tangible like that (for ex. nothing is mentioned in the heat of the hearing in Acts 26), then I assume he means the NHNE.

2, the law to Paul is not the core ethics or 10 commands which were already in most culture's basic ethics (they have a natural law, common sense about them, Rom 2). The law is the ceremonial and dietary 609 commands. If you think the church is keeping them, go ahead and try to prove that!

 

[Interplanner]

The church is preaching a future heavenly kingdom which we know is true but to everyone just seems to be pie in the sky. But Jesus said "All power is given unto Me in heaven AND ON EARTH...go ye therefore and preach the good news"

The good news is that Jesus is King.

Therefore all the promises God ever made to the Jews [and they are many and they are substantial] are for us as well...the fact that He does the earthly promises are signs that He will do or has done the heavenly or spiritual promises.

I think you have made the kingdom of God pie in the sky. When Jesus was resurrected, he was enthroned, Eph 1. The Christian proclamation included that he was both Lord and Christ, Acts 2. All human kingdoms are to bow to him, although they are not to be theocracies; we are not trying to make a caliphate of the world. The power is only in the proclamation of this and people's faith that it is true. We do not use a sword to enforce it. This is why in Acts 26 we see Paul doing two things: 1, saying nothing about a future for Israel, even when he could save his neck. 2, telling Roman administrators to personally be righteous and self-controlled out of honor for Christ. But not to create a theocracy. That would be the church's later mistake(s) along with anti-semitism.

The promises to Israel that matter any more are what the church now is. It is the blessing of justification by Christ shared among all the nations in a living temple. Eph 2-3.

btw, the NT position does not automatically lead to anti-semitism.

 

[HisServant]

"If their failure means riches for the world, how much more will their FULL inclusion mean?"

"For if their rejection means reconciliation for the world what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"

So you see Paul is not speaking about the remnant, those Jews who accepted Christ...the Jewish church.

But those who failed THEY will be included, those who were rejected THEY will be accepted, those who were graffed out THEY will be graffed back in.

And this is what really bothers me... your comments are totally devoid of context and are not grounded in solid exegesis.

 

[Totton Linnet]

And this is what really bothers me... your comments are totally devoid of context and are not grounded in solid exegesis.

It is a unique and glorious insight and it is as plain as the nose on your face.

When Paul speaks about those who were rejected being reconciled and those who failed being fully included, those being graffed in who were graffed out being graffed in he cannot be speaking about those Jews who did accept Christ, they were not rejected, they did not fail, nor were they graffed out.

So it is disobedient Israel who are to be reconciled and accepted.