ECT The failure of the Bible or God is not resolved by a future Israel

[Interplanner]

The only difference is that were not allowed to own land... the were not partakers in the land promise.

It's a pretty good summary by achduke, although the Seed was Christ. The land was only a shadow of the reality, like the temple. It is no longer needed or important for the promise.

I don't know where you get the idea that they did not own the land. Don't you know what Hebrews says about the real believers vs the encrusted Judaic follower in ch 6?

 

[Danoh]

See that's what I am saying, you are only preaching half the message...He is Lord of Heaven AND Earth, that is He is King of Heaven and Earth.

He is not King of the world, "My kingdom is not now of this world...."

Our job was always to witness that "all power is given unto Christ in Heaven and on Earth" and cast out the devils who had usurped man in the garden, clear them out of the high places....

We preach it, the people receive faith to believe it and when they call upon the Lord the Holy Ghost chases the devil out.

The devil is quite satisfied if we proclaim Jesus as Lord only of Heaven for then he sits still upon the earthly throne...when we preach a future inheritance.

The devil reigns over the world through wicked men, through disease, through famine and poverty, through natural disaster.

When the devil is cast out of a nation the people become honest, just, compassionate.....diseases are cured, poverty alleviated, etc all according to how much of the gospel is preached and how much is therefore believed.

Do you not see that western governments are being taken over by vice rings? people in high office are being "bought" and evil laws are finding their way on to the legislature.

Wickedness in high places.

Two things to consider in line with your points - one, that "spiritual wickedness in high places" is in the Heavenlies.

Two, Christ was "raised to sit" - not - is now sitting on His own throne.

He'll do that when He returns from that "far country" He will then replace the Earth's with - that "heavenly" the writer of Hebrews writes of; that the Lord had taught the Twelve to pray "come," that Isaiah wrote "shall come to pass, in the last days," that Daniel foresaw, "in the days of these Kings" that the Twelve asked Him about as to the timing of it's restoring "again," that John saw will "come down from Heaven," that...

"As it is written..."

 

[HisServant]

It's a pretty good summary by achduke, although the Seed was Christ. The land was only a shadow of the reality, like the temple. It is no longer needed or important for the promise.

I don't know where you get the idea that they did not own the land. Don't you know what Hebrews says about the real believers vs the encrusted Judaic follower in ch 6?

The land was divided into 11 sections for the 11 tribes that could own land and they tithed 10% of the increase to the Levites who were not allowed to own land.

The land had to stay in the tribe and passed down to the heirs with the first born getting the lions share.

Jews could 'sell' the land, but it reverted back to them every 7 years.

So no, people who became Jews who were not descendants of the original 11 tribes could not own land.

 

[Interplanner]

Danoh is wrong again on sitting. Acts 2:34-36. Eph 1:20. He did however stand for the first martyr Stephen.

The Christian proclamation is the daring statement that Christ now reigns above all kingdoms and powers and that those individuals in positions now should live righteously and with self-control because they will answer to him. The places of authority are not experiments for people to see what they evil can actually be tried problematically. Like our courts. If you are not declaring this, you are not a NT Christian.

Which is why, with its trying to find a perfect system, D'ism, whether MAD or not, is not NT.

 

[Interplanner]

The land was divided into 11 sections for the 11 tribes that could own land and they tithed 10% of the increase to the Levites who were not allowed to own land.

The land had to stay in the tribe and passed down to the heirs with the first born getting the lions share.

Jews could 'sell' the land, but it reverted back to them every 7 years.

So no, people who became Jews who were not descendants of the original 11 tribes could not own land.

OK, so you know more than Heb 6. I understand you to mean that.

 

[HisServant]

OK, so you know more than Heb 6. I understand you to mean that.

People are very much lost when it comes to descendants of Abraham actually inhabiting the promised land.

There is not a Hebrew alive today that can legitimately trace their heritage back to a specific tribe... therefore those Hebrews inhabiting the promised land today are doing it in direct violation of the law.

Even though they are inhabiting the land and call themselves Israel, they are not the Israel of the Old Testament... and are owed nothing by God as far as promises goes... if anything, they are cursed by him.

 

[achduke]

People are very much lost when it comes to descendants of Abraham actually inhabiting the promised land.

There is not a Hebrew alive today that can legitimately trace their heritage back to a specific tribe... therefore those Hebrews inhabiting the promised land today are doing it in direct violation of the law.

Even though they are inhabiting the land and call themselves Israel, they are not the Israel of the Old Testament... and are owed nothing by God as far as promises goes... if anything, they are cursed by him.

Do you think they are not related to Jacob/Israel? They are descendants of Jacob even though they may not be believers and be out of covenant.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

 

[achduke]

The land was divided into 11 sections for the 11 tribes that could own land and they tithed 10% of the increase to the Levites who were not allowed to own land.

The land had to stay in the tribe and passed down to the heirs with the first born getting the lions share.

Jews could 'sell' the land, but it reverted back to them every 7 years.

So no, people who became Jews who were not descendants of the original 11 tribes could not own land.

Debt was forgiven every 7 years. Land reverted back every 49 + 1 years or a Jubilee.

 

[Interplanner]

Do you think they are not related to Jacob/Israel? They are descendants of Jacob even though they may not be believers and be out of covenant.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

Your first line here is the OT mentality. At least the 2nd is the NT mentality, but needs work.

 

[achduke]

Your first line here is the OT mentality. At least the 2nd is the NT mentality, but needs work.

I do not see any OT mentality vs NT. When the NT was written the only scripture the witnesses/writers had was the OT. They could not even reference the NT or letters from Paul. They did not exist in most part.

When Paul says:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

He is most probably not talking about his own letters or anything from Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.

 

[Interplanner]

But he is in Christ which changes everything. So when he goes to speak about descendancy in rom 4, 9 or Gal 3 everything is routed through Christ.

In Gal 3:8, the reason that "the Scriptures" preached the Gospel to Abraham is that the Seed was actually Christ (v16) and the mechanism of inclusion was actually faith in the Gospel. That is very different from devoting ourselves to endless geneaologies (I Tim 1:4). The reaons the "seed" is as numerous as the sands of the shore is because it is by faith; it is much bigger than the ethnos Israel.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Then what realm was Jesus enthroned upon in the resurrection? Acts 2, Eph 1-3.

Oh people skate over such treasures and never really grasp the glory

Ephesians1:7
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, might give unto YOU a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Having the eyes of your hearts enlightened that you may know what is the hope to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints and what is the immeasurable greatness of His power IN US who believe, according to His great might which He accomplished in Christ when He raised Him from the dead

and made Him sit at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and far above every name that is named not only in this age but also in that which is to come [there is an age yet to come]
and He has put all things under His feet and has made Him the head over ALL things for the church which is His body the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

See Satan occupies the high places, the places of rule and power and dominion....but Christ has been raised FAR, FAR above Him...Christ is head over all things [did you get it?] for the church


And God has raised us up with Him

We's supposed to be in the place of ruling and overruling, fretting about the law of the land concerning homosexuality, we's suppose to have power to overrule.

In fact we DO have this power....but you have to SEE it, you have to BELIEVE it, you have to THINK that way, you have to Pray that way and you have to WALK that way.

We are suppose to be engaging and CLEARING the devils out of those high places and establishing instead the kingdom or rule of God instead ....not in the heavenlies, God already rules there but ON EARTH as it is in heaven.

That's what it is all about.

 

[Interplanner]

Oh people skate over such treasures and never really grasp the glory

Ephesians1:7
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, might give unto YOU a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Having the eyes of your hearts enlightened that you may know what is the hope to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints and what is the immeasurable greatness of His power IN US who believe, according to His great might which He accomplished in Christ when He raised Him from the dead

and made Him sit at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and far above every name that is named not only in this age but also in that which is to come [there is an age yet to come]
and He has put all things under His feet and has made Him the head over ALL things for the church which is His body the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

See Satan occupies the high places, the places of rule and power and dominion....but Christ has been raised FAR, FAR above Him...Christ is head over all things [did you get it?] for the church


And God has raised us up with Him

We's supposed to be in the place of ruling and overruling, fretting about the law of the land concerning homosexuality, we's suppose to have power to overrule.

In fact we DO have this power....but you have to SEE it, you have to BELIEVE it, you have to THINK that way, you have to Pray that way and you have to WALK that way.

We are suppose to be engaging and CLEARING the devils out of those high places and establishing instead the kingdom or rule of God instead ....not in the heavenlies, God already rules there but ON EARTH as it is in heaven.

That's what it is all about.

This is good, but you never get to it in pop eschatology or Dispensationalism.

 

[Danoh]

I do not see any OT mentality vs NT. When the NT was written the only scripture the witnesses/writers had was the OT. They could not even reference the NT or letters from Paul. They did not exist in most part.

When Paul says:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

He is most probably not talking about his own letters or anything from Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.

Consider that your "probably" is the result of your relying on, and reading your own reasoning, into that passage.

In Romans 16:25, Paul relates the same principle he relates in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

In 2 Peter 3, Peter, who has related earlier that they "have a more sure word of prophecy," relates that Paul's writings are "according to the wisdom given him."

In short, that said writings are also 2 Timothy 3:16's "given by inspiration" - just as Paul himself relates in 1 Corinthians 2 and Romans 15, etc.

In...

Well, the point is obvious...

1 Corinthians 14's:

37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

No need for the uncertain imperfection that is "probably."

That is merely the result of overreliance on one's own reasoning over that of 2 Timothy 3:16-17's asserted means of being "perfect" in one's understanding of things.

One can know for certain...

 

[Interplanner]

Rom 16:25 and 2 Tim 3:16 are very different topics. v15 is much closer. where is the skillset emphasis of Rom 16? Where is the emphasis on the capacity of the individual minister in Rom 16? Conversely, where is the mystery doctrine in 2 Tim 3? The unhiddenness of the mystery through the Gentiles believing the Gospel in 2 Tim 3?

Danoh should have used the word probably for his comparison.

 

[Danoh]

Rom 16:25 and 2 Tim 3:16 are very different topics. v15 is much closer. where is the skillset emphasis of Rom 16? Where is the emphasis on the capacity of the individual minister in Rom 16? Conversely, where is the mystery doctrine in 2 Tim 3? The unhiddenness of the mystery through the Gentiles believing the Gospel in 2 Tim 3?

Danoh should have used the word probably for his comparison.

They are there. But though you and I both supposedly study these things out "systemically," obviously we differ in what that "systemic" is.

I know; ya missed me, lol

 

[Interplanner]

If those topics are in those verses, then every topic is in any verse, and that sums up either your reading or writing skills.

 

[HisServant]

Debt was forgiven every 7 years. Land reverted back every 49 + 1 years or a Jubilee.

I stand corrected then.... but my point still stands.... the people occupying Palestine are not Isrealites according to the Old Covenant.

 

[achduke]

I stand corrected then.... but my point still stands.... the people occupying Palestine are not Isrealites according to the Old Covenant.

Why are they not Israelites? Do you believe they are genetically related to Jacob?

 

[Interplanner]

Why are they not Israelites? Do you believe they are genetically related to Jacob?

More to the point: as believers we really don't care what the Old Covenant calls for anymore or is doing. Our business is that of the New Covenant of which we are envoys in this world.