ECT The failure of the Bible or God is not resolved by a future Israel

[achduke]

If someone can show where the truth of the Bible or God, according to the apostles, finally rests on a view of a future Israel, please do! In Romans, that is never the thing that resolves this problem, or question. The question is resolved in the belief that Christ fulfilled what was promised to Israel/the fathers so that the nations would be able to believe and share in the promises too.

Zechariah 8:6 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, will it also be marvelous in My eyes?' says the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass that just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so I will save you, and you shall be a blessing. Do not fear, let your hands be strong.'

 

[Interplanner]

Zechariah 8:6 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, will it also be marvelous in My eyes?' says the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass that just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so I will save you, and you shall be a blessing. Do not fear, let your hands be strong.'

But if the NT has already guided us on an "Israel" that would bless the nations, and gives no clear statement about a theocracy and worship system back in the land, then these OT passages must not mean that. The NT must guide us how to read the OT.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Jesus' kingdom is not of the earth... and never will be.

See that's what I am saying, you are only preaching half the message...He is Lord of Heaven AND Earth, that is He is King of Heaven and Earth.

He is not King of the world, "My kingdom is not now of this world...."

Our job was always to witness that "all power is given unto Christ in Heaven and on Earth" and cast out the devils who had usurped man in the garden, clear them out of the high places....

We preach it, the people receive faith to believe it and when they call upon the Lord the Holy Ghost chases the devil out.

The devil is quite satisfied if we proclaim Jesus as Lord only of Heaven for then he sits still upon the earthly throne...when we preach a future inheritance.

The devil reigns over the world through wicked men, through disease, through famine and poverty, through natural disaster.

When the devil is cast out of a nation the people become honest, just, compassionate.....diseases are cured, poverty alleviated, etc all according to how much of the gospel is preached and how much is therefore believed.

Do you not see that western governments are being taken over by vice rings? people in high office are being "bought" and evil laws are finding their way on to the legislature.

Wickedness in high places.

 

[achduke]

But if the NT has already guided us on an "Israel" that would bless the nations, and gives no clear statement about a theocracy and worship system back in the land, then these OT passages must not mean that. The NT must guide us how to read the OT.

Because we are all grafted into Israel. No one wants to believe it but that is what Romans is saying. All Israel will be saved. God is not a liar. We are not Israel and gentiles. We are Israel, grafted together, native and gentiles.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Then why is David's forgiveness an example of the blessedness of imputed righteousness in Rom 4? Dispsensations, Phishpensations.

I am not one who believes that OT saints are not in the kingdom of Heaven. The gospel began in Eden "the seed of the woman" promise, the church began with Adam and Eve.

But we do not receive God's blessing by obedience to laws or observance of ordinances as in the old dispensation but by grace through faith.

 

[Daniel1611]

I am not one who believes that OT saints are not in the kingdom of Heaven. The gospel began in Eden "the seed of the woman" promise, the church began with Adam and Eve.

But we do not receive God's blessing by obedience to laws or observance of ordinances as in the old dispensation but by grace through faith.

Salvation was always by grace through faith. Adam and Eve only had one commandment in the beginning and they broke it. But they're in heaven. Why? Because salvation is by grace through faith alone

 

[HisServant]

See that's what I am saying, you are only preaching half the message...He is Lord of Heaven AND Earth, that is He is King of Heaven and Earth.

He is not King of the world, "My kingdom is not now of this world...."

Our job was always to witness that "all power is given unto Christ in Heaven and on Earth" and cast out the devils who had usurped man in the garden, clear them out of the high places....

We preach it, the people receive faith to believe it and when they call upon the Lord the Holy Ghost chases the devil out.

The devil is quite satisfied if we proclaim Jesus as Lord only of Heaven for then he sits still upon the earthly throne...when we preach a future inheritance.

The devil reigns over the world through wicked men, through disease, through famine and poverty, through natural disaster.

You are looking so hard for any shred of evidence to support your heretical eschatology that you are seeing signs where there are none... just like so many date setters before you... they all failed in their predictions and so will you.


When the devil is cast out of a nation the people become honest, just, compassionate.....diseases are cured, poverty alleviated, etc all according to how much of the gospel is preached and how much is therefore believed.

Do you not see that western governments are being taken over by vice rings? people in high office are being "bought" and evil laws are finding their way on to the legislature.

Wickedness in high places.

The message is the Gospel... that Christ died, descended into hell, and raised from the dead... and that is it.

If you add anything to it, you are preaching a false gospel.

As far as what is going in in governments now... it has happened before and will end up in revolution.. and it will happen again. Nothing new under the sun.

You are looking so hard for signs to support your heretical eschatology that you are seeing some where none exist... You are following in the same footsteps as so many of your ilk that have failed before.. and you will do the same.

 

[Interplanner]

TottonL wrote:
The devil is quite satisfied if we proclaim Jesus as Lord only of Heaven for then he sits still upon the earthly throne...when we preach a future inheritance.

"he sits..." is referring to the devil, right?

 

[Interplanner]

Because we are all grafted into Israel. No one wants to believe it but that is what Romans is saying. All Israel will be saved. God is not a liar. We are not Israel and gentiles. We are Israel, grafted together, native and gentiles.

I assume you are supporting your original thought because you started with "because..."

I can't tell if you realize there is another Israel in Rom 9-11, just as there is another Jew in Rom 2 and another circumcision there.

Your last two lines, as written, go against each other. If you define one as a community of faith in the Gospel and one as an ethnos, I will know what you meant.

 

[Interplanner]

The message is the Gospel... that Christ died, descended into hell, and raised from the dead... and that is it.

If you add anything to it, you are preaching a false gospel.

As far as what is going in in governments now... it has happened before and will end up in revolution.. and it will happen again. Nothing new under the sun.

You are looking so hard for signs to support your heretical eschatology that you are seeing some where none exist... You are following in the same footsteps as so many of your ilk that have failed before.. and you will do the same.

I don't have any problem with what he said; I just need the one line clarified about who is sitting on a throne. God doesn't want theocracies all over earth in the NT, but he does want what Paul advocated to secular authority in Acts 26: that the individuals be righteous and self-controlled.

 

[Interplanner]

The message is the Gospel... that Christ died, descended into hell, and raised from the dead... and that is it.

If you add anything to it, you are preaching a false gospel.

As far as what is going in in governments now... it has happened before and will end up in revolution.. and it will happen again. Nothing new under the sun.

You are looking so hard for signs to support your heretical eschatology that you are seeing some where none exist... You are following in the same footsteps as so many of your ilk that have failed before.. and you will do the same.

I don't know that preaching that Christ is ascended to his throne now qualifies as a false gospel; it's simply part of the result of what he accomplished. "Thy people will volunteer freely in the day of thy power" is referring to this and is from Ps 2 which is one of the 3 the apostles spent so much time on. The Gospel is such a compelling account that when people realize God has exalted him to a throne above all thrones, they will honor him.

For the same reason, we have to ask you: is Phil 2's Christ-account the Gospel?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

What is the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven? They are used interchangeably. Matthew preferred Kingdom of Heaven while the rest preferred Kingdom of God.

They could be, as the Kingdom of Heaven is a subset of the Kingdom of God.

 

[achduke]

I assume you are supporting your original thought because you started with "because..."

I can't tell if you realize there is another Israel in Rom 9-11, just as there is another Jew in Rom 2 and another circumcision there.

Your last two lines, as written, go against each other. If you define one as a community of faith in the Gospel and one as an ethnos, I will know what you meant.

The seed started with Abraham, Isaac and then Jacob passing down through Judah to David and then to Christ. Now with Christ we are grafted onto the root(Christ) to become Israel. Even those that were native and cutoff as gentiles can be grafted in again. Many of those gentiles that are grafted in were once Israel. They have lost their heritage but it does not matter. Foreigners that are believers are also grafted into Israel. We are all one body in Christ.

Even in the OT foreigner believers were treated the same. It was not about genetics then and it is not about genetics now even though many can track their DNA to Jacob.

Exodus 12:49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

 

[HisServant]

The seed started with Abraham, Isaac and then Jacob passing down through Judah to David and then to Christ. Now with Christ we are grafted onto the root(Christ) to become Israel. Even those that were native and cutoff as gentiles can be grafted in again. Many of those gentiles that are grafted in were once Israel. They have lost their heritage but it does not matter. Foreigners that are believers are also grafted into Israel. We are all one body in Christ.

Even in the OT foreigner believers were treated the same. It was not about genetics then and it is not about genetics now even though many can track their DNA to Jacob.

Exodus 12:49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

The only difference is that were not allowed to own land... the were not partakers in the land promise.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jesus' kingdom is not of the earth... and never will be.

I don't understand why the Kingdom of God cannot be a 3 story building. Land, City, Heaven.

The Temple in the old testament had 3 basic sections.

I believe the entire universe, in the end, will be God's Kingdom and will be filled with his redeemed creatures.

 

[Totton Linnet]

TottonL wrote:
The devil is quite satisfied if we proclaim Jesus as Lord only of Heaven for then he sits still upon the earthly throne...when we preach a future inheritance.

"he sits..." is referring to the devil, right?

Satan is the god of this world...the prince of the power of the air

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Satan is the god of this world...the prince of the power of the air

Indeed he is, proof that this this passage, much to Tet's dismay, is still future:



Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[Interplanner]

STP,
that "short" reference there is something that matches up with Rev 21, and is why we think that the long reign of Christ (millenium) is now with its short rebellion at the end. the other major reason is that nothing Judaic is mentioned in the millenium.

 

[Interplanner]

Satan is the god of this world...the prince of the power of the air

Then what realm was Jesus enthroned upon in the resurrection? Acts 2, Eph 1-3.

 

[Interplanner]

The seed started with Abraham, Isaac and then Jacob passing down through Judah to David and then to Christ. Now with Christ we are grafted onto the root(Christ) to become Israel. Even those that were native and cutoff as gentiles can be grafted in again. Many of those gentiles that are grafted in were once Israel. They have lost their heritage but it does not matter. Foreigners that are believers are also grafted into Israel. We are all one body in Christ.

Even in the OT foreigner believers were treated the same. It was not about genetics then and it is not about genetics now even though many can track their DNA to Jacob.

Exodus 12:49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

those verses are good OT reasons why we should say: Paul showed that there never was a God-ordained special treatment of Israel. Israel replaced a worldwide redemption with special treatment of its own ethnos, in Gal 3:17, which Paul had to detangle.