The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
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Nova
New member
That is exactly my take on it. Fundamentalists in particular put a huge emphasis on faith over works, they believe that good works can't 'save' you, only Jesus...I understand that belief but I think to completely discount good intentions and good works is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There are a couple of conflicting Bible verses, one claims that "Good works are as dirty rags" to god, the other claims "Faith without works is dead". I have noticed some fundamentalist are highly critical of Catholocism, partly because they emphasize works as much as faith.
I have been confronted by some people who try to 'witness' to me, when I politely tell them "no thank you" they start getting rude and self-righteous, and they try to justify their attitude with this idea that "Well yeah I'm a total jerk but I'm still going to heaven because I'm 'saved' and that's all that matters, not how a person lives their lives and relates to others"...of course that is not their exact words but the impression I get. Of course this is not the attitude of all or even most Christians.
The idea that anybody can get into heaven, no matter what their attitude and actions just for having faith in god while on the flipside allowing for billions of basically ethical human beings to suffer 'eternal torment' because they aren't Christian seems terribly unreasonable and unjust to me. I have patiently listened to all the apologetics one can muster on this subject but it just doesn't pan out, in my view.
prodigalson
New member
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." - Hebrews
Works are dirty rags b/c in the eyes of God what good works can a sinner do to "impress" a Holy and Righteous God? If OJ Simpson helps and old lady across the street does that make him a good guy? No, the guy is still a scumbag murderer. Know what I mean. Nothing I can ever do could impress God b/c I know the type of man I am and any works i do would be a pile of crud. The JW's 'have' to go door to door as part of their salvation but that is taking away the righteousness of the blood of Christ b/c when a sinful man stands before a Holy God he will be able to say to God, 'Look what I did, I deserve to be let in.'
Faith without works is dead b/c if you are saved and your life hasn't changed outwardly than does a person have a saving faith? No. A saving faith(the faith the bible is talking about) is a changing faith, which means when you have a saving faith in Jesus Christ you are 'born again' and your nature is now righteous and that person has righteous desires; now if this happens, how can a person not have works that show that change? If your nature is righteous now, you will go to church, you will read the bible, you will pray, you will stop cursing(in regular conversations), you will stop doing drugs, you will stop having pre-marital sex. Not, 'I have to do these things to get saved'.
Remember, just b/c someone says they are a christian doesn't make them one, I can say I am your brother and even use your last name but it doesn't make your relative.
If I didn't make something clear tell me b/c I just sat back down after loading my machines.
Works are dirty rags b/c in the eyes of God what good works can a sinner do to "impress" a Holy and Righteous God? If OJ Simpson helps and old lady across the street does that make him a good guy? No, the guy is still a scumbag murderer. Know what I mean. Nothing I can ever do could impress God b/c I know the type of man I am and any works i do would be a pile of crud. The JW's 'have' to go door to door as part of their salvation but that is taking away the righteousness of the blood of Christ b/c when a sinful man stands before a Holy God he will be able to say to God, 'Look what I did, I deserve to be let in.'
Faith without works is dead b/c if you are saved and your life hasn't changed outwardly than does a person have a saving faith? No. A saving faith(the faith the bible is talking about) is a changing faith, which means when you have a saving faith in Jesus Christ you are 'born again' and your nature is now righteous and that person has righteous desires; now if this happens, how can a person not have works that show that change? If your nature is righteous now, you will go to church, you will read the bible, you will pray, you will stop cursing(in regular conversations), you will stop doing drugs, you will stop having pre-marital sex. Not, 'I have to do these things to get saved'.
Remember, just b/c someone says they are a christian doesn't make them one, I can say I am your brother and even use your last name but it doesn't make your relative.
If I didn't make something clear tell me b/c I just sat back down after loading my machines.
You can go your own way...go your own way!
You can go your own way...go your own way!
Nova-You said:
God is a gentleman, He doesn’t force anyone to live with Him forever.
I don’t believe hell is a place filled with actual fire and little demons with jabbing pitchforks. But, rather it is a place away from God and His mercy of forgiveness. Without that, when you choose to be your own god, you decide to do it all yourself. To pay your own way. And that means knowing the consequences of all your sins and what effect they have had on the people you know and the rest of the world. There is no need for God to create demons and fire to torture you. You will do that on your own, forever and ever.
Imagine if you actually knew what harm you have caused throughout your life. How each of your sins has affected others. Like a ripple on a still lake.
I have hurt people in my life and at times have felt the effect of that hurt. I know how it can eat away at the heart. I have lain awake nights wondering why I did what I did, and oh how I wish I could take that back. The shame and guilt can be unbearable. But, as humans we have time and busyness to held distance us from our guilt. To help our minds and hearts cloud over our evil actions with forgetfulness. But I don’t believe those in hell will have those protections. In hell there is no forgiveness from guilt because you, Nova, have decided to shoulder that burden on your own. You want to live without God? You will get what you want. And your own soul, filled with all the knowledge of your sins and their consequences will be your reward. The time you stole, from the little girl down the street. The time you humiliated the fat kid at school by giggling with your friends. The pain you caused your parents by being promiscuous, dishonoring them, and worse, turning from God. But more than the remembrance that you did these things, is the further knowledge of the effect your actions had on the people you wronged (including yourself). Imagine if your own child goes to hell because of your teachings? How horrible. To know for eternity that you helped your own child, or brother or sister, or parent or friend or even your worst enemy, live forever without God and His mercy.
Jesus said some are beaten with few stripes, and others with many. Hitler will have the knowledge of how many lives he ruined and the harm he did forever to the world. You will have less, but the depth of the stripes will run just as deep.
I say this not to terrify you into believing, but to show you the two options. You can choose to live with God, who has taken your just punishment on Himself, if you will allow Him to, or you can live apart from God and pay your own way. The pain won’t come from God, but from your own soul.
This is a burden that it is heavy, but you, Nova, can shoulder it. You are after all, a god.
So, you see, God isn’t this horrible tyrant you thought He was. He is, instead, just and righteous, allowing those who want to be with Him, to live forever in fellowship with Him and others of like kind. And allowing the rest of you to live forever and ever away from us.
You can go your own way...go your own way!
Nova-You said:
Thanks for the information, and as I said earlier, I would never try and convince you to accept Christianity if you choose not to. You have every right in the world to live apart from God for all eternity. Your post was much more honest than most who hate God. You state flat out that even if you were convinced (by some miracle) than you would not accept Him. And that is what it all boils down to in the end.
God is a gentleman, He doesn’t force anyone to live with Him forever.
I don’t believe hell is a place filled with actual fire and little demons with jabbing pitchforks. But, rather it is a place away from God and His mercy of forgiveness. Without that, when you choose to be your own god, you decide to do it all yourself. To pay your own way. And that means knowing the consequences of all your sins and what effect they have had on the people you know and the rest of the world. There is no need for God to create demons and fire to torture you. You will do that on your own, forever and ever.
Imagine if you actually knew what harm you have caused throughout your life. How each of your sins has affected others. Like a ripple on a still lake.
I have hurt people in my life and at times have felt the effect of that hurt. I know how it can eat away at the heart. I have lain awake nights wondering why I did what I did, and oh how I wish I could take that back. The shame and guilt can be unbearable. But, as humans we have time and busyness to held distance us from our guilt. To help our minds and hearts cloud over our evil actions with forgetfulness. But I don’t believe those in hell will have those protections. In hell there is no forgiveness from guilt because you, Nova, have decided to shoulder that burden on your own. You want to live without God? You will get what you want. And your own soul, filled with all the knowledge of your sins and their consequences will be your reward. The time you stole, from the little girl down the street. The time you humiliated the fat kid at school by giggling with your friends. The pain you caused your parents by being promiscuous, dishonoring them, and worse, turning from God. But more than the remembrance that you did these things, is the further knowledge of the effect your actions had on the people you wronged (including yourself). Imagine if your own child goes to hell because of your teachings? How horrible. To know for eternity that you helped your own child, or brother or sister, or parent or friend or even your worst enemy, live forever without God and His mercy.
Jesus said some are beaten with few stripes, and others with many. Hitler will have the knowledge of how many lives he ruined and the harm he did forever to the world. You will have less, but the depth of the stripes will run just as deep.
I say this not to terrify you into believing, but to show you the two options. You can choose to live with God, who has taken your just punishment on Himself, if you will allow Him to, or you can live apart from God and pay your own way. The pain won’t come from God, but from your own soul.
This is a burden that it is heavy, but you, Nova, can shoulder it. You are after all, a god.
So, you see, God isn’t this horrible tyrant you thought He was. He is, instead, just and righteous, allowing those who want to be with Him, to live forever in fellowship with Him and others of like kind. And allowing the rest of you to live forever and ever away from us.
Aimiel
Well-known member
IMHO, faith is faith, and works is works. We come to God by faith. We begin to do good works, because we love Him.
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." -- James 1:27
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." -- James 1:27
Loin:
Basically, what you are saying is that Hell is a place away from Gods foregiveness. So, that would be THIS place right? This place is Hell, because it is away from Gods foregiveness. This is Hell, because Adam and Eve were sent here.
>>I have hurt people in my life and at times have felt the effect of that hurt.<<
We all have hurt people at one time or another. The question is: was it intentional? Did you know you were hurting someone and yet continued to do so? Or, was it when you were a kid and didn't know that hurting people isn't very nice?
>>In hell there is no forgiveness from guilt because you [Nova] have decided to shoulder that burden on your own. <<
Yes, its called a conscience. I'll never forget some of the things I did to some people. But I didn't know how much hurt I was causing, nor did I know how to stop hurting them. I do now, so I've been able to forgive myself those actions. The question therefore is NOT about forgiveness from God, but rather forgiveness from yourself. And the other question is: did you LEARN anything from what you did? Because if you didn't, you are doomed to repeat those mistakes over and over again untill you get it right.
And basically, that is what reincarnation is about. Everybody gets the chance to get it right, but untill you DO get it right you are stuck on this earth, doomed to repeat those mistakes untill the impact of it finally gets through to you.
I've learned something in this life (well, more than just something I hope). And I'm not going to repeat some of the things I did. But I'm not perfect, so I'm bound to make new mistakes as I go along. Making mistakes is human, but as long as you don't forget to LEARN something from those mistakes the experience isn't a waste.
Love, friendship, happyness.
Basically, what you are saying is that Hell is a place away from Gods foregiveness. So, that would be THIS place right? This place is Hell, because it is away from Gods foregiveness. This is Hell, because Adam and Eve were sent here.
>>I have hurt people in my life and at times have felt the effect of that hurt.<<
We all have hurt people at one time or another. The question is: was it intentional? Did you know you were hurting someone and yet continued to do so? Or, was it when you were a kid and didn't know that hurting people isn't very nice?
>>In hell there is no forgiveness from guilt because you [Nova] have decided to shoulder that burden on your own. <<
Yes, its called a conscience. I'll never forget some of the things I did to some people. But I didn't know how much hurt I was causing, nor did I know how to stop hurting them. I do now, so I've been able to forgive myself those actions. The question therefore is NOT about forgiveness from God, but rather forgiveness from yourself. And the other question is: did you LEARN anything from what you did? Because if you didn't, you are doomed to repeat those mistakes over and over again untill you get it right.
And basically, that is what reincarnation is about. Everybody gets the chance to get it right, but untill you DO get it right you are stuck on this earth, doomed to repeat those mistakes untill the impact of it finally gets through to you.
I've learned something in this life (well, more than just something I hope). And I'm not going to repeat some of the things I did. But I'm not perfect, so I'm bound to make new mistakes as I go along. Making mistakes is human, but as long as you don't forget to LEARN something from those mistakes the experience isn't a waste.
Love, friendship, happyness.
Nova
New member
Sorry, 'agnostic' suffices for me, I'm strictly a la carte.
And what makes what I think matter any less than what you think? You may disagree and that's fine, but that doesn't mean I'm any less entitled than anyone else to reach my own conclusions, and I devote a lot of thought to them.
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Nova
New member
Re: You can go your own way...go your own way!
Re: You can go your own way...go your own way!
Well, I try to be as real, open and frank as possible.
Of course I have hurt people in my life, sometimes on purpose, I never said I was perfect and I can own up to my own mistakes, I don't just go watch TV and forget about them. When i know I've hurt someone who meant me no harm I do my inner penance for it and I apologize.
I realize that you believe the only true forgivness for the ultimate sin of having been born a human being is through acceptance of Christ, but again all I can do is respectfully agree to disagree.
I guess this is just meant to be a hypothetical, analogous scenario but for the record I WAS that fat kid.
Whoa, I hope THAT was not an assumption about me personally, I don't recall saying that I sleep around or dishoner my parents, that is some pretty personal stuff.
I understand your position and you seem to have nothing but good intentions and I appreciate your concern, but I do not agree there are only two options, I do not think in only black and white.
Re: You can go your own way...go your own way!
Well, I try to be as real, open and frank as possible.
Of course I have hurt people in my life, sometimes on purpose, I never said I was perfect and I can own up to my own mistakes, I don't just go watch TV and forget about them. When i know I've hurt someone who meant me no harm I do my inner penance for it and I apologize.
I realize that you believe the only true forgivness for the ultimate sin of having been born a human being is through acceptance of Christ, but again all I can do is respectfully agree to disagree.
I guess this is just meant to be a hypothetical, analogous scenario but for the record I WAS that fat kid.
Whoa, I hope THAT was not an assumption about me personally, I don't recall saying that I sleep around or dishoner my parents, that is some pretty personal stuff.
I understand your position and you seem to have nothing but good intentions and I appreciate your concern, but I do not agree there are only two options, I do not think in only black and white.
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You missed the point. I assume eveyone has thought, at one time or another, that something they heard was ridiculous or unjust....but it didn't really matter what you thought because that's just the way it is. You might think income taxes are unjust. In the end it doesn't really matter what you think.
You think that the results of rejecting Jesus are ridiculously unjust. The problem is, this isn't a salad bar, you don't get to make the rules and what you think about them doesn't really matter.
prodigalson
New member
Sorry but who is 'decent' in the eyes of a Holy and Righteous God? Seriously. I could not stand before God next to Charles Manson and point my finger at Manson, God would just pull up stuff I did that is pretty freaking bad. Because people might look decent on the outside, those same people have secret sins that are not decent. The problem isn't that God sends decent people to hell, it's the fact that people don't want to see that they are not decent and deserve hell.
Say I was Mother Thresea(I am a man though) and did all of these great and good things, and almost never sinned, but I would be totally indifferent to the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ; is that person a 'decent' person in the eyes of God? Not a chance. This is the worst sin of them all b/c we are doing it to a Holy God and that is not cool, spitting in the face a God that experienced more pain and suffering than anyone could imagine for people that never deserved it.
Eternal life in Heaven is futile? Uh, have you ever done good hard drugs? The Euphoria in Heaven while in the presence of God will be infinatly beyond anything we could ever experience. Not to mention the fact that you will be in the presence of GOD, you know what I mean, in the presence of God Almighty.
